Training with treats

[jlegros]

My pup is now 7 months old.I started him out with treats when we train(positive reinforcement ).I still use em,especially for teaching new things.My question is at his age should I still use em? I find it helps him catch on quickly.

[Sharon]

Is this a dog you are going to hunt with? If you are , he is going to have to respond to voice commands , not treats , out in the field . As he is 7 months old , I assume you may be starting field work and treats should end. I've not used treats ever but .......................

Clicker training is effective in the house and treats are used. However, they are given less and less often until not used at all. The idea is to wean him off treats.

[cjhills]

I use treat s on all my dogs. I start when they are puppies and quit when the die. Mostly for recall and kennel and early whoa training. I phase the treats out as the dogs learn, but I sometimes give them a reward for doing good thru out there life. You need to vary how often and make sure they doing what you following the command and not just looking for treat...................Cj

[Trekmoor]

I do sometimes use treats. They are used for recall and for stop to whistle and not much else. I phase out the treats but still give an occasional one in order to keep the pup gambling that "this time" I will get a treat.
I am thinking of using treats at present with my 15 months old Brittany for although she retrieves very enthusiastically she strongly dislikes formalised retrieve drills such as on the spot heelwork which I use when teaching direction during blind retrieves. I have made a mistake somewhere so now I will go back to absolute basics and use treats to make her think this exercise is worth doing after all. Treats are just another tool in the box.

Bill T.

[Neil]

I buy the jerky strips and cut them into squares, I always have some in my shirt pocket. Everytime a catch a dog doing something righ and they are close enough, they get a treat.

Bo, the current National Champion was trained with treats, I don't know if Robin is still giving them, I doubt it.

[EvanG]

Is this a dog you are going to hunt with? If you are , he is going to have to respond to voice commands , not treats , out in the field . As he is 7 months old , I assume you may be starting field work and treats should end. I've not used treats ever but .......................

Clicker training is effective in the house and treats are used. However, they are given less and less often until not used at all. The idea is to wean him off treats.

A firmly agree with Sharon. What is commonly called "treat training" is a misnomer. It's merely conditioning, and is a useful part of operant conditioning. But it's for puppies. By 6 - 7 months pups should be weaned off treats, and started formal training. Let me be clear about a couple important items.

The training cycle, if is "training", follows this path: Teach, Force, Reinforce. Those terms are often misunderstood, but the result of that cycle is a trained dog.

"Taught dog"; one that has been passively conditioned and guided to respond to a command in a uniform way.
"Trained dog": one that has been not only taught, but whose training has been formalized through an appropriate and temperate use of pressure & reward so that he not only knows what to do in response to command, but will reliably do it each time he's told, even if he's distracted, moody, excited, or otherwise not inclined to obey. This is what a gundog should have going for him. A gundog that cannot be relied upon at this level is a substandard gundog.

Each of us chooses what we will settle for in the field. Settling for less is an individual choice, but a needless one.

EvanG

[Neil]

Evan my friend,

There are many ways to get a trained hunting dog, I have no doubt your way works well, but I have enjoyed a fair amount of success! And Buddy Smith has accomplished more than anyone I know, we both use treats with all dogs, as do most of the movie trainers. I have not find a reason to phase them out.

[lugmastro]

I never use treats and will not start. It is a slippery slope in my mind. I use my attention as the reward. If they do right they get my attention or they get released to go back and hunt. If not they are ignored until I receive the desired response. It works for me, I will stick with it.

[Nutmeg247]

Treats are one in a list of things that are rewarding for dogs. You've got food, as noted attention, ear scratches, play, and really fun things like birds. So, when someone shoots a bird over a dog that was steady, they are reinforcing that behavior with a reward.

So, to me, in concept, treats fit well in that list, with the question of when and where they work dependent among other things on the specific behavior desired. My dog interestingly is very foodie in the house, but much less so outdoors, so where food and other rewards rank in that list is also dependent on the specific dog, and what else is available.

[Neil]

I never use treats and will not start. It is a slippery slope in my mind. I use my attention as the reward. If they do right they get my attention or they get released to go back and hunt. If not they are ignored until I receive the desired response. It works for me, I will stick with it.

Whatever works.

But that slippery slope just might lead you to a National Champion.

[ruffbritt4]

I used treats, but as my dog got older I went to the check cord, and eventually the ecollar. You may want to go away from the treats, and start with a check cord.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

My pup is now 7 months old.I started him out with treats when we train(positive reinforcement ).I still use em,especially for teaching new things.My question is at his age should I still use em? I find it helps him catch on quickly.

There is no set age to end clicker or treat training. You can use this method to teach and shape new behaviors for the life of the dog if you so desire without negative consequence. There is also a good deal of value in click and treat where rehab and building trust are concerned in dogs that need this. Many people are confused by this training method and believe it will somehow ruin a dog. Nothing could be further from the truth. When done properly click and treat will enable you to reward a dog for a desired behavior in a more timely and consistent manner than any other method. You will however likely reach a stage where the treats can be replaced by praise. Consider the treat as a reward and a means to communicate to the dog that it's performing a desirable behavior.

Nate

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

I used treats, but as my dog got older I went to the check cord, and eventually the ecollar. You may want to go away from the treats, and start with a check cord.

If you reinforce the behavior with click and treat, and teach the cue or command with click and treat - it will make the transition to commands reinforced with an e-collar easy for the dog to understand. That way the foundation is already set before collar conditioning begins.

[EvanG]

I used treats, but as my dog got older I went to the check cord, and eventually the ecollar. You may want to go away from the treats, and start with a check cord.

If you reinforce the behavior with click and treat, and teach the cue or command with click and treat - it will make the transition to commands reinforced with an e-collar easy for the dog to understand. That way the foundation is already set before collar conditioning begins.

X 2. That makes a smooth transition toward a formal standard.

EvanG

[jlegros]

thanks for the info,glad to see everybody's approach and opinon on the matter

[ckfowler]

My Gordon shut down when the trainer tried FF. Maybe spending another 90 days at it would have worked but hard to tell. She responded very quickly to rewards so I still use them occasionally. This is called intermittent reinforcement and is one of the most powerful motivations, think lottery. I have also mow been anle to ise the collar for refusals to known commands so she knows both ends of the spectrum and I now get downed birds brought to me. Positive verbal praise is classically paired with treats and stern voice with correction on the collar. You could use just one method but why limit yourself?

[birddog1968]

I can relate to that ck, some trainers use more pressure than is necessary when FF'ing and the importance of positive reinforcement in the process. An attaboy and joyful pat of the head let's the dog know your sympathetic to its situation....they will try harder and put up with more if they know that attaboy (reward) is coming.

[Neil]

It has always seemed to me most of the resistance to treats is a macho thing, my dog does what I tell him, when I tell him. Me I just want results - however, whatever it takes.

[birddog1968]

An attaboy is among the greatest treats you can give to a dog. Measured praise is a powerful tool.

[RickB]

Define treat...

A treat is just something that the dog wants. A trainer can use what the dog wants in order to get the desired behavior. A treat can be food. A treat can be a toy. A treat can be getting to do something.

Retriever people use treats all the time. the fun bumper at the end of a hard training session? that is a treat.
Pointer people use treats all the time. Shooting a well-handled bird and letting the dog have it? that is a treat.

Folks think treats and clicker training is some sort of new fangled thing. One hears words like positive reinforcement, negative punishment, quadrants of learning, and premack principle. The words are all that are new. The ideas are as old as time.

You all use treats, in some sense of the word.


RickB

[Ez4]

I used a little bit of treat training (food) as a very young puppy, but transitioned out of it quickly for positive reinforcement. The area where I still do use treats is only when kenneling. Every once in a while I throw one in there as a surprise, the effect is that she loves her kennel willingly with or without the reward (which helps as she is already 75 lbs) on her own going in there for naps and gets excited whenever I give the kennel command and has made it very easy to transport her.