training older dogs

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wwalker
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training older dogs

Post by wwalker » Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:49 pm

i have a question. i have a nice three year old labrador/drathaar. how do i get her to retrieve birds and not be gun shy?

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Re: training older dogs

Post by DoubleBarrel GunDogs » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:00 pm

Has your dog had exposure to birds and gunfire? If so how did she react?

Nate

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Re: training older dogs

Post by landonman » Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:33 pm

The first thing to do is leave the gun home. Hunting and killing are 2 different things. Expose your dog to birds and more birds. See if this dog has prey drive. If your dog has prey drive this is great. You may have to hunt the dog on a daily basis for about 30 days, Get the prey drive to peak. You will be able to tell, Maybe this dog will be birdie as heck in 2 weeks, then carry a stick with you the length of a gun. By the way when you take this dog for a walk carry a stick. Start out with a walking stick. Then start carrying a gun, but don't shoot for at least a week. When you do shoot, kill it no matter what it is. I have found when a dog has there nose full of bird they don,t here the gun. They become obsessed with birds. I never talk to a dog unless it is a command, leave the dog alone and remember you are just along for the ride. Larry

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Re: training older dogs

Post by whoadog » Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:56 pm

Reintroduction of gunfire is a specialty of mine. I know there will be a number of responses on the gunshy question that will be all about shooting when the dog is on birds. I can tell you from experience that no method is 100% effective but the least effective, IMHO, is just shooting in the presence of birds. I'm not saying it never works, just that there are much better ways. That being said, why not just start over with a dog that has no issues?

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Re: training older dogs

Post by Meller » Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:14 am

A location would be nice, and might be able to find someone close to help. :)

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Re: training older dogs

Post by fishvik » Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:55 am

I tend to agree with landonman. I have a GSP that is still spooky around guns when she has to sit still in a blind, but when she is hunting up birds she is fine with gunfire. Walker, I have a male lab/gwp,about the same age, a great cross. I had no problems with gun-shyness with him. He'll sit in blind all day and never flinch when the gun goes off.

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Re: training older dogs

Post by EvanG » Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:43 am

wwalker wrote:i have a question. i have a nice three year old labrador/drathaar. how do i get her to retrieve birds and not be gun shy?
Do it as you would with any youngster. Dogs don't know how old they are. They're just dogs. Start these guys like you would a pup, and let them show you how well they do having been given the education. Do you have a program to follow?

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Re: training older dogs

Post by wwalker » Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:46 pm

DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote:Has your dog had exposure to birds and gunfire? If so how did she react?

Nate

she will chase birds like quail part of the time and she cowers really bad to shots

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Re: training older dogs

Post by Nutmeg247 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:55 pm

On the gunshy desensitization/counterconditioning issue, search isn't working on my laptop at the moment (bug on my end, not the site's) but I believe I've read a couple threads on that here recently. In that regard, I also had gotten some Fiocchi shotgun primer poppers recently just to work on steadying my dog -- since I only have one dog, they're a lot cheaper than a training pistol, and so one possible way to go when you are ready to re-introduce sharp noises down the road.

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Re: training older dogs

Post by bonasa » Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:35 am

Sounds bird-shy and gun-shy. May be a good idea to start the dogs training from square one like a puppy. Or find a competent professional dog trainer to tackle the issue, the season is over at this point and by taking it slow for the next seven months could yield a workable bird dog. Additionally like a puppy I'd find a program and follow it for the sake of the dog as to not confuse it at all during training if you are to do the training yourself.

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Re: training older dogs

Post by DoubleBarrel GunDogs » Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:46 am

wwalker wrote:
DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote:Has your dog had exposure to birds and gunfire? If so how did she react?

Nate

she will chase birds like quail part of the time and she cowers really bad to shots
Now that you've determined that she is apprehensive to gunfire you know what not to do. Don't fire a gun around her until she has had a great deal of positive exposure to birds. At that point you can begin to introduce the gun in a progressive thoughtful manner. Use pigeons and a .22 crimp primer pistol, have an assistant fire from a distance of 100 yards. When you do reintroduce the gun be certain the dog is distracted by a bird, and keep a watchful eye on the dogs reaction or lack thereof to the gun shot.
Keep yard work (basic obedience) and field work (birds and guns) separate. Until you have yard work complete, use no commands in the field. In fact don't say anything to the dog in the field.

Good luck,

Nate

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Re: training older dogs

Post by roaniecowpony » Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:51 pm

All the above pretty well covers options on what you can do.

I can give another example of what NOT to do. I recently saw a guy with a young pup at the clays range. We had a friendly talk for a bit in the parking lot. It turned out the pup had never been exposed to gunfire and this was his plan to "introduce" the pup to gunfire... bring him to the range and see what happens. I explained to him that there are better/proven ways for introducing a dog to gunfire and he should reconsider right then. He didn't, of course. I didnt want to know how it turned out.

In the words of George Hickox, a well known successful trainer, "...'let's see what happens' is not a plan."

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Re: training older dogs

Post by whoadog » Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:27 pm

Walker, I am still curious: Why this dog? What is it about him that makes you want to take on such a serious fault and difficult re-training? In my opinion, "cowering" at the sound of a gunshot is as difficult a problem to face and cure as there is in dog training. Is there something else extraordinary about the dog that makes you think you should take it on?

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Re: training older dogs

Post by wwalker » Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:35 pm

whoadog wrote:Walker, I am still curious: Why this dog? What is it about him that makes you want to take on such a serious fault and difficult re-training? In my opinion, "cowering" at the sound of a gunshot is as difficult a problem to face and cure as there is in dog training. Is there something else extraordinary about the dog that makes you think you should take it on?

i think i can do it and she is actually very intelligent.

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Re: training older dogs

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:45 am

Is that a drahtador or a labradraht? Enquiring minds want to know. :D I'd also like to see a picture.
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Re: training older dogs

Post by kninebirddog » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:01 am

As suggested
Let her chase birds and chase birds and chase birds until every time you go out she has no apprehension and is very happy and confident
Go to walmart and get a kids little Cap gun then go back out and let her chase a bird and when she is in full chase cap the cap gun ONE TIME Behind you.
If there is no reaction Great STOP THERE and let her absorb that come back again the next day repeat.
Then work it where you are slowly moving the direction of the sound and you are able to snap the cap gun closer to the time of the flush and closer to her..this may take literally weeks to help rebuild ...then get a 22 blank and get the acorn crimps and repeat process this should go a little faster as she will be learning through repetition that the ONE TIME cap of the gun isn't going to hurt her
then work to the larger blanks...at lowes you can get blanks of varying powder levels
when she is confident on louder noise then bring in a shotgun and begin where you have some trusted help as what you will want to do is you go in a flush and the person with the shotgun will shoot one round off in the DISTANCE directed the opposite direction ONE SHOT ONE SHOT ONLY ..repeat this process and slowly work closer towards her and slowly working the direction of the shot her direction
At this point if you know of a training group you may want to check cord her into backing other dogs as she watches them get birds shot over them and get to go retrieve and you have a dead bird so when the other dog gets a bird shot for them she has a bird tossed in front of her...
Also if you can have her staked out with other dogs that she also is learning through other dogs that shots in the distance are nothing to worry about.

Small tiny steps ...Key thing is making her so amped up on the birds that that is what desensitizes her from the loud BANG of the gun
Leave her wanting more and DO not coddle the scared behavior you need to act like everything is normal if you coddle the scared behavior the only thing you are doing is rewarding that scared behavior ..just ignore it
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Re: training older dogs

Post by Sharon » Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:39 pm

EXCELLENT post. Saving that one. :)
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Re: training older dogs

Post by Jidano3 » Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:01 am

wwalker,

kninebirdog has IMO, explained a very practical way to counter act the sensitivity to gun fire. I to had some concerns about introduction to gunfire. I have a GSP (Penny) that I was taking to a local trainer who thought a great idea would be to fire a cap gun to see how she would react. Penny did not cower, but I clearly could see she did not like the sound. Since then I purchased the Perfect Start / Perfect Finish videos. The videos really helped me "SEE" how I should be going about introducing gunfire which is how kninebirdog has posted. It is a process and alot of patience is required. Some people will give up on a dog, there is hope. It took a few months of training, but I'm glad to report that Penny doesn't hear a gun when there is a bird involved.

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Re: training older dogs

Post by Cicada » Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:01 am

Sharon wrote:EXCELLENT post. Saving that one. :)
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Re: training older dogs

Post by kninebirddog » Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:22 pm

PS on working uut of the gunshy specially when the shots are introduced use I suggest using pigeons
1 pigeons fly better allowing the adrenaline of the chase to be really kicked in and
2 should there be anything negative it is related to a pigeon and not a game bird
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Re: training older dogs

Post by USMC » Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:16 pm

Can you post a pic of your dog?

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Re: training older dogs

Post by wwalker » Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:40 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Is that a drahtador or a labradraht? Enquiring minds want to know. :D I'd also like to see a picture.

her main father was a lab but a male drathaar got in and mixed some of his genes.

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Re: training older dogs

Post by QuailHollow » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:55 am

I fixed a gun shy dog by firing a blank pistol when he was doing things that made him crazy. I instantly stopped trying to associate it to birds, and simply tried to associate it to 'fun'. My dogs love to run with the ATV, so what I started doing was revving it up, they'd all scream/bark and jump in their pen, then when I open the gate to let them run (making sure my gun shy dog was just as excited), I'd swing the gate open and let them run down through the yard and fire the blank pistol. One time. As long as the gun shy dog paid no mind, I would move forward each week. I'd fire closer and closer to the pen, until I was firing it as I was opening the door (like the start of a race) - always watching the reaction of the gun shy dog. Eventually he'd see the pistol and it would make him excited to go RUN. That's when I started take him to the club and letting him chase birds - still no blank pistol. When he was bumping birds consistent and running out, I'd ad a blank fire as he was chasing. Eventually the blank pistol became the shot gun.. and now this is the same dog from this past weekend. He was crawling up my back side a year ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=griFxI2DniY

It's a lot of work.

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Re: training older dogs

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:11 am

wwalker wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:Is that a drahtador or a labradraht? Enquiring minds want to know. :D I'd also like to see a picture.

her main father was a lab but a male drathaar got in and mixed some of his genes.
You need to read up on conception and how it works. There never are two fathers even if two males bred the female. Once an egg is fertilized by a single sperm, no more get in. And all of the genes are included in one sperm and not a whole bunch that carry a single gene. Your dog is fathered by one or the other but is not a combination. I think that is what you were saying, if not sorry.

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Re: training older dogs

Post by wwalker » Mon May 05, 2014 1:43 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
wwalker wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:Is that a drahtador or a labradraht? Enquiring minds want to know. :D I'd also like to see a picture.

her main father was a lab but a male drathaar got in and mixed some of his genes.
You need to read up on conception and how it works. There never are two fathers even if two males bred the female. Once an egg is fertilized by a single sperm, no more get in. And all of the genes are included in one sperm and not a whole bunch that carry a single gene. Your dog is fathered by one or the other but is not a combination. I think that is what you were saying, if not sorry.

Ezzy

i think they are a labradraht

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Post by birddog1968 » Mon May 05, 2014 4:15 pm

We call em mutts here :)
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