Why use an E Collar at all?

dthx · Post by **dthx** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:20 pm

I'm new..so maybe this has been beaten to death already....so I apologize if that's the case.
I used the fourm's search function but could not find exactly the answer to my question....so I thought I's throw this out to the group.
I only hunt with water dogs...ducks, geese, rail...
These e collars have a momentary "nick" and a "continuous button...
I believe the momentary is for 8 or 9 seconds and then it shuts off...
I thought the stimulation was to be given when the dog fails to obey a command ...and the moment the dog begins to obey....the stim. stops.
Like an ear pinch.
So what is the momentary stim. for...?
AND...the Tritronics Sport Basic that I borrowed to look at....has a "BZ" button. As far as I can tell, it's a very faint buzz...I doubt the dog can even hear it.
What kind of training situation is that button for...?
thanks
D.

Post by **slistoe** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:42 pm

The momentary pulse is measured in very tiny fractions of a second. Try it on your hand and you will understand.
The dogs can hear the buzz very well. You can link the auditory sound to anything you want in training. Some folks use it as a precursor to the "nick", others use it as a recall command instead of the whistle, still others use it as an "attaboy" to praise the dog.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:07 am

You have it confused - the momentary is a fraction of a second and continuous is 8 seconds max. I find the Nick (momentary) the most effective. The vibrate function is handy if you teach the dog to understand it as "here". When it is in the water or thick stuff where he can't hear you the vibrate can take the whistle/voice's place. You really need to follow some sort of conditioning program if you are going to use an e-collar. They are an amazing tool that can GREATLY aid your training, but they can also be easily abused when in inexperienced hands (knowingly or unknowingly).

Del Lolo · Post by **Del Lolo** » Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:42 am

You need to get on a Modern, Sequential, training program (I like the Smartwork series of books and DVDs). The proper use of an ecollar is well explained. The proper use of an ecollar is a bit too complex to try to explain on the internet.

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:20 pm

"Why use an E-Collar at all?"

So you can enforce a command when the dog is more than the length of a check cord away from you.

ChetB · Post by **ChetB** » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:46 pm

roaniecowpony wrote:"Why use an E-Collar at all?"

So you can enforce a command when the dog is more than the length of a check cord away from you.

Exactly, but as I commented on a different post with regard to this topic, an e collar is an effective tool, but in the wrong hands it's more of a hindrance than an asset. I think the best advice I can offer to someone who is asking, "Why use an e collar at all?", would be to consult a respected trainer, read as much information as you can find and have someone knowledgeable (the trainer, perhaps?) train YOU. Then, I believe you are in a better position to train your dog.

Chet

TonyS · Post by **TonyS** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:41 pm

"Why use an E-Collar at all?"

"So you can enforce a command when the dog is more than the length of a check cord away from you."

That may be a great excuse but training your dog works better, if your dog is trainable. More time training less time shocking.

My 2 cents.

TonyS · Post by **TonyS** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:41 am

It is a pleasure to work with a dog that doesn't need one.

Del Lolo · Post by **Del Lolo** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:59 am

TonyS wrote:It is a pleasure to work with a dog that doesn't need one.

It's even more of a pleasure to work with a dog that has been ecollar conditioned -- and wears one -- but no longer "needs" it.

whatsnext · Post by **whatsnext** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:09 pm

TonyS wrote:It is a pleasure to work with a dog that doesn't need one.

Only a collar wise dog would need one, so what is your point ?

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:33 pm

Tony,
My dogs rarely gets a correction from an e-collar because I do put in training set up for success, not failure. But there will be times with every dog when it will disobey a known command due to circumstances. An all reward based training program can't be effective when the dog encounters a situation where they perceive a bigger reward for disobeying. Only a correction the dog perceives as meaningful and associates the correction with disobeying will be effective in deterring the dog from doing it again. If you are late with a correction, like more than 2 seconds after the infraction, the dog likely will not associate the correction with the act of disobeying. If it's not on a lead or within arms length when it happens, you can't correct it within 2 seconds without an e-collar. If he gets away with it once, it's a learning experience for him, twice and he has your number. Hopefully, it doesn't cost the life of your dog when you recall him to get him away from a hazard like a road, combine, or baited trap and he fails to obey immediately.

I think a lot of people have the wrong idea about dogs wearing e-collars. They have a perception of button pushing sadists, addicted to electrocuting their poor dogs. That couldn't be further from what the modern dog handler/trainer anyone aspires to. And, by the way, a modern, high quality, well designed (and yes, expensive) e-collar, will have the ability to be less painful than a stiff ear pinch, much less, or much more if needed. Keep in mind, if the e-collar correction (or non e-collar correction) is too low for the dog to perceive as meaningful, it may lead to the dog disobeying more and more, knowing the correction is tolerable for whatever payoff it perceives it may get for disobeying. If your dog jumps on the counter and gets the stick of butter off the butter tray and you say "bad dog" and set him on the floor, what are the odds that he'll jump up on the counter tomorrow to get the butter? I'd say 100% he'll jump on the counter for the butter tomorrow. If you gave a meaningful (to the dog) correction that he associates with the act, the odds that he'd jump on the counter tomorrow drop dramatically. Would you rather give a meaningful correction once or twice, or give continuously escalating corrections starting with soft peddling and leading up to higher and higher correction? This applies to e-collars or any other method of correction. But no methods of correction are of any value if the dog doesn't associate it with the disobedient act. You have 2 seconds to make that association.

I put an e-collar on my dogs to go to the park or to the sporting clays range when they are off leash as well as hunting. I put them on when training. I did both training and a trip to the clays range yesterday. I never so much as nicked my dog with it all day. But I knew I could correct her from disobeying a command to recall if she ventured out into the range in the line of fire, thereby ensuring her safety. She never did.

Just another perspective to consider.

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:05 pm

roaniecowpony wrote:"Why use an E-Collar at all?"

So you can enforce a command when the dog is more than the length of a check cord away from you.

Exactly - like 500 yards away giving you the finger.

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 5:53 pm

Sharon wrote:
roaniecowpony wrote:"Why use an E-Collar at all?"

So you can enforce a command when the dog is more than the length of a check cord away from you.
Exactly - like 500 yards away giving you the finger.

Mine will usually moon me rather than give me the finger.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:09 pm

Del Lolo wrote:
TonyS wrote:It is a pleasure to work with a dog that doesn't need one.
It's even more of a pleasure to work with a dog that has been ecollar conditioned -- and wears one -- but no longer "needs" it.

That's it. Once you understand the concept, conditioning and use of the e-collar, I would ask why not? You can certainly train a dog without one though if you prefer.

Charlie

Frankug · Post by **Frankug** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:41 pm

take this with a grain of salt. I have rabbit dogs, so i would use and e-collar for trash breaker scenarios for the most part. I am not training bird dogs. I have used collars and they are nice, see your dog running trash and let it know it is a bad idea. Most of my collars are broken these days. I have two working. I had ten dogs out today and had the 2 collars on two young beagles. If they ran trash that one negative stimulus would work to deter future trash running. I have found though that positive reinforcement goes a lot further than negative reinforcement. Definitely harder and more patient training. The longer i have dogs the more i focus on the positive reinforcement, it is better for you and your dogs confidence. Show success. Like someone else stated. I have an English Cocker Spaniel that put a shot bird in my hand today and he and i celebrated together. That will push that dog better than col cocking him with the collar because he didn't sit fast enough. He will never wear an e-collar. He just doesn't need it. That begs the question "Why use an E-Collar at ALL?" I think it is just laziness. Many great dogs came before collars. So collars don't make great dogs. I have been trying to work harder at positive reinforcement and less focus on the negative. Build em up not tear em down. Get rid of my collars, just have to get the confidence myself. When you get a dog to listen to you and not the collar it is awesome. They respect me and not the "bleep" collar. Takes real work and patience. Not many people have that these days.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:57 pm

It amazes me at how many people on here do not understand the proper use of the e-collar and trying to explain it seems futile.

Charlie

Frankug · Post by **Frankug** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:01 pm

You seem just like the type of person that would need one. Totally lost in the negative, Behind me in dog comprehension for sure. Sorry to hear that.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:02 pm

You guys talking about positive & negative re enforcement & how E-Colors are negative please tell me if it so cruel & negative why a dog that has been trained with one gets so excited when they see you coming around the kennels with one in your hand.You don't know how to use one or understand any of it. :roll:

Charlie they are lost & you can't explain it to them.

whatsnext · Post by **whatsnext** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:08 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:You guys talking about positive & negative re enforcement & how E-Colors are negative please tell me if it so cruel & negative why a dog that has been trained with one gets so excited when they see you coming around the kennels with one in your hand.You don't know how to use one or understand any of it. :roll:

Charlie they are lost & you can't explain it to them.

Exactly, when my pups see the E collar they start jumping over furniture and spinning in circles out of excitement.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:26 pm

Nice Reply Frank! :roll:

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:28 pm

Frankug wrote:take this with a grain of salt. I have rabbit dogs, so i would use and e-collar for trash breaker scenarios for the most part. I am not training bird dogs. I have used collars and they are nice, see your dog running trash and let it know it is a bad idea. Most of my collars are broken these days. I have two working. I had ten dogs out today and had the 2 collars on two young beagles. If they ran trash that one negative stimulus would work to deter future trash running. I have found though that positive reinforcement goes a lot further than negative reinforcement. Definitely harder and more patient training. The longer i have dogs the more i focus on the positive reinforcement, it is better for you and your dogs confidence. Show success. Like someone else stated. I have an English Cocker Spaniel that put a shot bird in my hand today and he and i celebrated together. That will push that dog better than col cocking him with the collar because he didn't sit fast enough. He will never wear an e-collar. He just doesn't need it. That begs the question "Why use an E-Collar at ALL?" I think it is just laziness. Many great dogs came before collars. So collars don't make great dogs. I have been trying to work harder at positive reinforcement and less focus on the negative. Build em up not tear em down. Get rid of my collars, just have to get the confidence myself. When you get a dog to listen to you and not the collar it is awesome. They respect me and not the "bleep" collar. Takes real work and patience. Not many people have that these days.

Trash breaking hounds and using one with a cocker are 2 VERY different methodologies and there is no "col cocking", if using with a spaniel or retriever the dog is conditioned to the pressure and it is more of a cue or reminder than a negative association. Not to start anything, but this was a very misinformed post. As far as laziness goes, an e-collar does not replace training so how laziness comes into the picture is beyond me. You do not train anything with an e-collar, nor is it a shortcut. I respect that you have used them for trash breaking your hounds but that is not how they are used with a spaniel and IMO a poor use for an e-collar (and not a real positive experience for the dog either).

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:30 pm

Trash breaking & training are 2 totally different things entirely no matter what breed.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:39 pm

You can always tell who the people are who have no basis for their view...They always resort to name calling. I couldn't care less whether a person uses an e-collar or not. I admit though, I do get a little frustrated at the misconseptions.

Charlie

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:50 pm

birddogger wrote:I couldn't care less whether a person uses an e-collar or not. I admit though, I do get a little frustrated at the misconseptions.

Charlie

This is how I feel as well. Its like whether you choose to use a slip lead or a leather lead with a snap - it really doesn't matter and is your own personal choice. An e-collar doesn't make a better dog - the trainer (and the breeding) does. That being said, there is nothing wrong with doing something more efficiently.

Frankug · Post by **Frankug** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:57 pm

Sounds like all of you guys are lazy. Have just one dog or two GSPs or something. I have had plenty of dogs under my belt to know what i know. You guys choose a crutch in training. Not my problem. I am just moving beyond. I don't use an ecollar with my spaniel and don't need to. I have a great rapport with him and he with me. Your insecurities glow bright and i feel sorry for you guys. I have only used a shock collar for trash breaking scenarios, I don't use one for training. Don't need to. "Conditioned to the pressure." Hope that helps you sleep at night. One dog. Get real.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:13 pm

Frankug wrote:Sounds like all of you guys are lazy. Have just one dog or two GSPs or something. I have had plenty of dogs under my belt to know what i know. You guys choose a crutch in training. Not my problem. I am just moving beyond. I don't use an ecollar with my spaniel and don't need to. I have a great rapport with him and he with me. Your insecurities glow bright and i feel sorry for you guys. I have only used a shock collar for trash breaking scenarios, I don't use one for training. Don't need to. "Conditioned to the pressure." Hope that helps you sleep at night. One dog. Get real.

I have more than one dog thanks, not that it has any bearing on anything. I know lots of people who own lots of dogs and still couldn't train one to come. I don't "need to" use one either and didn't even own one while going through formal obedience with my spaniel so I'm a bit put off by your posts. Do I need it? No. Does it allow me to fine tune things and bring my dog to a higher level? You betcha bud. Chill out, its an internet forum - don't get your nuts in a bunch. If you don't want to use an e-collar, don't. No one cares, it affects no one's life but your own. You don't like e-collars. Awesome. I see a use for them.

whatsnext · Post by **whatsnext** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:14 pm

Frankug wrote:Sounds like all of you guys are lazy. Have just one dog or two GSPs or something. I have had plenty of dogs under my belt to know what i know. You guys choose a crutch in training. Not my problem. I am just moving beyond. I don't use an ecollar with my spaniel and don't need to. I have a great rapport with him and he with me. Your insecurities glow bright and i feel sorry for you guys. I have only used a shock collar for trash breaking scenarios, I don't use one for training. Don't need to. "Conditioned to the pressure." Hope that helps you sleep at night. One dog. Get real.

Where do you come up with this stuff? A report ,insecurities This stuff is great keep it coming

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:28 pm

Frank I own 11 GSPS at the moment have owned dog for over 40 yrs use to raise & show dobes.I F trial GSPS own I FC & another on the way & I was breeder of both of them.No I am not a first time one dog owner & all the pros that train dogs for a living use E-Collars to train with don't know one that doesn't.I don't care if you use one or not just like I don't care what dog food you use but I guess all of us are lazy & maybe I am but I know how to use an E-collar with out making a dog go hide from it or stick his tail between his legs or yelp when the button is pushed.Do you see my avatar dog he is not wearing an e-collar in the pic but was trained with one & wears it except when he is trialing or getting his pic taken.

Frankug · Post by **Frankug** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:31 pm

Hey, I had a positive post. It said nothing negative about anyone. Just me and my dogs and where i am. Then Birddogger and VDkennels jumps on me like they are some sort of Ecollar gurus and want to stand up for how good they are and how much their dogs love them. In essence slamming my post which said nothing about either of them mind you. Then little Cocker piles on for giggles you know. Not the first time. Real mature dipsticks. Once again you guys are so insecure about your dog knowledge or just in general that i feel sorry for you. I know where i am and am sorry you are lost. Get Bent!

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:36 pm

Frankug wrote:Hey, I had a positive post. It said nothing negative about anyone. Just me and my dogs and where i am. Then Birddogger and VDkennels jumps on me like they are some sort of Ecollar gurus and want to stand up for how good they are and how much their dogs love them. In essence slamming my post which said nothing about either of them mind you. Then little Cocker piles on for giggles you know. Not the first time. Real mature dipsticks. Once again you guys are so insecure about your dog knowledge or just in general that i feel sorry for you. I know where i am and am sorry you are lost. Get Bent!

Coming from the guy who only about a month ago asked if cockers were ran in packs like hounds for rabbit hunting. Back at ya bud :roll:

Frankug · Post by **Frankug** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:46 pm

Ran him a pack today. Back to YOU!

Frankug · Post by **Frankug** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:56 pm

I am not really the issue. You will have to look within yourselves to figure out your own insecurities. This is my point with my dogs. Positive reinforcement is better than negative. Birddogger VDKennels and Little Cocker think Slamming someone is a great way to make themselves feel better about themselves. Sorry to hear that. Sucks to be you. I believe in positivity.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:58 pm

After all these years of being lazy and insecure, I finally have somebody who feels sorry for me.

Charlie

whatsnext · Post by **whatsnext** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:59 pm

Frankug wrote:I am not really the issue. You will have to look within yourselves to figure out your own insecurities. This is my point with my dogs. Positive reinforcement is better than negative. Birddogger VDKennels and Little Cocker think Slamming someone is a great way to make themselves feel better about themselves. Sorry to hear that. Sucks to be you. I believe in positivity.

You do not sound positive at all, and an e collar is as negative as a check cord or do you not use a check cord either?

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:01 pm

whatsnext wrote:
You do not sound positive at all, and an e collar is as negative as a check cord or do you not use a check cord either?

Only lazy negative people use check cords

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:02 pm

Frankug wrote:take this with a grain of salt. I have rabbit dogs, so i would use and e-collar for trash breaker scenarios for the most part. I am not training bird dogs. I have used collars and they are nice, see your dog running trash and let it know it is a bad idea. Most of my collars are broken these days. I have two working. I had ten dogs out today and had the 2 collars on two young beagles. If they ran trash that one negative stimulus would work to deter future trash running. I have found though that positive reinforcement goes a lot further than negative reinforcement. Definitely harder and more patient training. The longer i have dogs the more i focus on the positive reinforcement, it is better for you and your dogs confidence. Show success. Like someone else stated. I have an English Cocker Spaniel that put a shot bird in my hand today and he and i celebrated together. That will push that dog better than col cocking him with the collar because he didn't sit fast enough. He will never wear an e-collar. He just doesn't need it. That begs the question "Why use an E-Collar at ALL?" I think it is just laziness. Many great dogs came before collars. So collars don't make great dogs. I have been trying to work harder at positive reinforcement and less focus on the negative. Build em up not tear em down. Get rid of my collars, just have to get the confidence myself. When you get a dog to listen to you and not the collar it is awesome. They respect me and not the "bleep" collar. Takes real work and patience. Not many people have that these days.

Hmmm...wasn't this your first post that started it all.

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:09 pm

LOL... I think cabin fever is running rampant through the forum.

"After all these years of being lazy and insecure, I finally have somebody who feels sorry for me.

" quote birdogger...... always knew you were a lazy son of a gun.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:13 pm

Hey Frankug, no problem man, I am ending it here.

Charlie

whatsnext · Post by **whatsnext** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:16 pm

CDN_Cocker wrote:
whatsnext wrote:
You do not sound positive at all, and an e collar is as negative as a check cord or do you not use a check cord either?
Only lazy negative people use check cords

I use telepathy to train , so I am sorry for you if you are to negative to try it!

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:08 pm

The intolerance on this subject reminds me of anti hunting people vs hunting people. There's probably something to take away from that.

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:21 pm

dthx wrote:I'm new..so maybe this has been beaten to death already....so I apologize if that's the case.
I used the fourm's search function but could not find exactly the answer to my question....so I thought I's throw this out to the group.
I only hunt with water dogs...ducks, geese, rail...
These e collars have a momentary "nick" and a "continuous button...
I believe the momentary is for 8 or 9 seconds and then it shuts off...
I thought the stimulation was to be given when the dog fails to obey a command ...and the moment the dog begins to obey....the stim. stops.
Like an ear pinch.
So what is the momentary stim. for...?
AND...the Tritronics Sport Basic that I borrowed to look at....has a "BZ" button. As far as I can tell, it's a very faint buzz...I doubt the dog can even hear it.
What kind of training situation is that button for...?
thanks
D.

Never used a momentary or tone or BZ. I keep it simple: " I thought the stimulation was to be given when the dog fails to obey a command ...and the moment the dog begins to obey....the stim. stops." quote O.P.
What I do . Has worked for me.

Frankug · Post by **Frankug** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:18 pm

Seems everyone thinks I am in the wrong. Change my tone even. Sorry, I was sharing my thoughts on collars and limited use of. I thought that is what I am suppose to do here. BirdDogger, VDKennels, and Little Cocker get to gang up on me, and you don't expect me to defend myself. What kind of people are you guys? Clearly not the type I want or need to be associated with. My original post was positive and definitely not belittling to anyone.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:43 pm

And nothing was said till you begin to use some language and personal criticism that wasn't to kosher. Just watch how you say it since we have young people as well as old cranky ones on here.

Ezzy

TonyS · Post by **TonyS** » Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:54 am

Thanks Frankug. You did see that was a little one sided didn't you ezzy?

tasi devil · Post by **tasi devil** » Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:20 am

basic obedience, yard training, check cord , e-collar
I use e-collar on 'high & continuous' for what you blokes call 'trash breaking', here that is stock,deer,roo,possums,rabbits,hares,goats
other than that I use 'continuous on low level' (barely acknowledged) as a 'tap,tap tap,tap' to remind them I can still touch them at 3-500yds
I use lots of positive re-inforcement, don't use 'momentary' or 'tone'

thanks for the question dthx, don't be shy about asking more, you'll soon work out who's who
at least there's a bit of razzamataz on here, unlike some other forums

now I need to get some popcorn & a cold beverage to see how this ends.

Frankug · Post by **Frankug** » Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:58 am

So started wondering last night if there is some other collar that you guys are talking about. My collar has a tone, buzz, and then different levels of electrocution. Momentary and continuous on the electrocution. Otherwise known as a shock collar. This is the collar I speak of. If you go back and read my original post it clearly states this. Is there some other E-collar that I don't know about. Some great and wonderful bird training tool. Which I clearly stated that I do Not train bird dogs. I have been around them my whole life. Clearly stated my hound training application. I don't use check cord, once again I don't train bird dogs. I do however use rapport and since Whatnext can't spell it I can only assume he does not know what it is. Me against the whole GunDogForum, sounds like a fair fight. Bring it.

Hoosierdaddy · Post by **Hoosierdaddy** » Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:43 am

Electrocution-To injure or kill with the use of electricity.You my friend are about to stir up a hornets nest.Personally i think this has gone to troll status.

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:11 am

Frankug
just one more time on this again. You dont like these things? And you want everyone in the world that uses them to stop? Maybe you want a law prohibiting them too? Or is there some other point you have?

whatsnext · Post by **whatsnext** » Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:30 am

Frankug wrote:So started wondering last night if there is some other collar that you guys are talking about. My collar has a tone, buzz, and then different levels of electrocution. Momentary and continuous on the electrocution. Otherwise known as a shock collar. This is the collar I speak of. If you go back and read my original post it clearly states this. Is there some other E-collar that I don't know about. Some great and wonderful bird training tool. Which I clearly stated that I do Not train bird dogs. I have been around them my whole life. Clearly stated my hound training application. I don't use check cord, once again I don't train bird dogs. I do however use rapport and since Whatnext can't spell it I can only assume he does not know what it is. Me against the whole GunDogForum, sounds like a fair fight. Bring it.

I typed that on my phone and auto spell took over but thank's for pointing that out to me

and I used to think the same as you about e collar's until i saw how to properly use one and the results.

Frankug · Post by **Frankug** » Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:42 am

Wrong Roainie, been using one but as they break and can't afford a new one, been finding other ways to get the job done. I have just stated that i have been finding it rewarding for the dog to listen to me and not the collar. CDN Cocker can mock me for asking stupid questions, but in my mind there are no stupid questions. I was also just stating my personal experience and what i was doing and in no way telling someone else what they do or don't need to be doing with their dog. I know how to properly use my collar too. Thanks. I don't train bird dogs but have seen a few good trainers and dogs. My grandfather is in the bird dog hall of fame, considering that they probably let any ol country bumpkin in with a few good bird dogs. That is really all I consider myself, just an ol country bumpkin with passion for hunting with dogs. I can assure you though that I didn't just fall off the turnip truck.