Retriever training for versatile dog

Bluesky2012 · Post by **Bluesky2012** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:35 pm

Just wondering how far any of y'all have taken a GSP or other versatile breed through a retriever training program. I've gone through force fetch, piles, etc but haven't taught remote sit, casting, etc and am wondering if y'all ever do? This was my dogs first season with ducks and did very well with sitting in the blind and retrieving divers in open water, rice fields, etc so I'm wondering if in the off season y'all have had success with a versatile dog following a retriever program to that length. I don't compete him, just hunt so it's not for any navhda tests or anything.

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:22 pm

A good number of NAVHDA versatile champions are taught to handle on blinds. Many do follow a retriever based program...

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:23 am

Wouldn't say "many," Tammy, particularly not for running water blinds that require real handling. But more are starting to follow a retriever program - what with most of the versatile breeds now eligible for AKC retriever hunt tests.

Aces on your VCs!

MG

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:39 am

I've taken several, actually a bunch to ftp, but only one to a full handling retriever. It can be a real pain. Many versatile dog's absolutely HATE rote work. If you have one of those, forget it. They get extremely depressed and very sulky. Then you have a choice to make; forget the handling and save a bird dog, or force it through and take what you end up with.

If I have a vdog that loves rote work, or tolerates it, I'll teach it to handle. If one hates it, I won't. This is a very general conclusion, but I believe that males go through and like rote better than females. I may be wrong about that, because I don't have a large enough sampling to draw a reliable conclusion. Or, maybe each dog is different.

Bluesky2012 · Post by **Bluesky2012** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:38 pm

Fair enough. Honestly I don't see a huge advantage for hunting sake. In my experience, 90+% of our ducks are marked retrieves. Aside from steadiness and hard retrieve desire cleaned up by FF I don't think much more for hunting is required for the vast majority of the time.

Tanner01 · Post by **Tanner01** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:15 pm

Have a GSP and have taken her all the way thru Mike Lardy's program. 90% of our retrieves were blind. Hunted from a boat and the dog was in the blind with us. Found the handling made it easier and got the dog out of the water faster, during the cold weather it helps. Started working on difficult, tough cover blinds and I plan to run her in retriever tests come spring. She loves to retrieve and is extremely biddable.Like gonehunting' said some of the versitale dogs just don't like to do it, I have one that hates it, she is compliant but no excitement or style in the retrieves.

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:14 pm

Bluesky2012 wrote:Just wondering how far any of y'all have taken a GSP or other versatile breed through a retriever training program. I've gone through force fetch, piles, etc but haven't taught remote sit, casting, etc and am wondering if y'all ever do? This was my dogs first season with ducks and did very well with sitting in the blind and retrieving divers in open water, rice fields, etc so I'm wondering if in the off season y'all have had success with a versatile dog following a retriever program to that length. I don't compete him, just hunt so it's not for any navhda tests or anything.

I've applied the SmartFetch system to all gundog breeds with great results. I have given seminars for NAVHDA clubs. Many took their dogs all the way through the Smartwork system and gave their dogs a full set of retriever skills. Why not? The training is fun, and the benefits are many.

EvanG

aulrich · Post by **aulrich** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:56 am

I wonder about timing, I would think you would need to wait to train until after, basic v-dog duck search is done, searching the weeds for 10+ minutes without handler intervention. Especially if you plan on NAVHDA testing, you don't want the dog to stop and look to you for direction. But my understanding is the German system does allows casting during the duck search but it is optional.

I would think get the attributes the dog was born with solid and then add to it as you see fit.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:33 am

EvanG wrote:Iw've applied the SmartFetch system to all gundog breeds with great results. I have given seminars for NAVHDA clubs. Many took their dogs all the way through the Smartwork system and gave their dogs a full set of retriever skills. Why not? The training is fun, and the benefits are many.

EvanG

Evan, how successful have you been teaching them the wagon wheel and double T? I ask because if I have had problems with a lot of V dogs getting bored and shutting down.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:52 am

aulrich wrote:I wonder about timing, I would think you would need to wait to train until after, basic v-dog duck search is done, searching the weeds for 10+ minutes without handler intervention. Especially if you plan on NAVHDA testing, you don't want the dog to stop and look to you for direction. But my understanding is the German system does allows casting during the duck search but it is optional.

Yes, duck search or training to handle first is definitely the chicken-or-the-egg question

for versatile breeds. I went with the duck search first and after 4s across the board (top score) in a couple of NAVHDA UTs, proceeded to follow "to a T" - double-T, actually - what Tanner's described above. And to answer GH's query to Evan, the handling inculcated to a versatile went down like a charm, even though the dog wasn't necessarily charmed at first over the pile work, double-T, and swim-by. But if (and when) I undertake it with another versatile, I think finesse (yes, forcing with finesse in tailoring the program) will work wonders and may allow that chicken-or-egg question to have "both" as the answer.

MG

PS Can't say I put much stock in the "German system" when it comes to water work - the VGP, their "utility" test, actually still allows the handler to throw a rock to make a splash if that's what it takes to entice the dog to get into the water.

Del Lolo · Post by **Del Lolo** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:06 am

crackerd wrote:Wouldn't say "many," Tammy, particularly not for running water blinds that require real handling. But more are starting to follow a retriever program - what with most of the versatile breeds now eligible for AKC retriever hunt tests.

Aces on your VCs!

MG

And HRC HTs as well.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:09 pm

M.G.;What type and gender of versatile?

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:30 pm

Del Lolo wrote:Wouldn't say "many," Tammy, particularly not for running water blinds that require real handling. But more are starting to follow a retriever program - what with most of the versatile breeds now eligible for AKC retriever hunt tests.Aces on your VCs!MGAnd HRC HTs as well

All 3 are seperate tests IMO none ace the other. :roll:

We have good luck teaching the lining drills, T and double T while running UT. We do all pattern work on land only. Never run water blinds ( pattern Blinds) until were through with UT.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:53 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:M.G.;What type and gender of versatile?

A bearded lady, GH

and since drahts and WPGs and PPs and fouseks don't come in white, might tell you which bearded lady.

Whoa there, Tammy - nobody's saying any test "aces" another, even if they do when it comes to requirements for water work. "Aces" was congratulating you on your VCs (those in your tagline, which interestingly doesn't show up when you post messages unless the person reading your response is also logged in).

MG

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:56 pm

crackerd wrote:Whoa there, Tammy - nobody's saying any test "aces" another, even if they do when it comes to requirements for water work. "Aces" was congratulating you on your VCs (those in your tagline, which interestingly doesn't show up when you post messages unless the person reading your response is also logged in).

M.G. Sorry , I took you wrong. I apologize....

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:12 pm

Accepted. Now let's get those brags out there for all to see, not just folks logged in:

Ms. Cage wrote:VC Gunslinger's NW Heartbreaker NA-I UT-I
INT CH/VC GROUSE POINTS BLITZ MH NA-II UT-I
INT CH/VC Sharpshooters NW Mr. Motion MH NA-I UT-I

MG

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:58 pm

crackerd wrote:Accepted. Now let's get those brags out there for all to see, not just folks logged in:

Ms. Cage wrote:VC Gunslinger's NW Heartbreaker NA-I UT-I
INT CH/VC GROUSE POINTS BLITZ MH NA-II UT-I
INT CH/VC Sharpshooters NW Mr. Motion MH NA-I UT-I
MG

WOW, that is impressive.

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:58 pm

Thank You, Dogs are not listed as brags. More, so folks can see how they are bred.

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:20 pm

I think we need a cross-pollinator dictionary for the british slang! Or is Aces even a brit saying? I got it, but I have a brother that uses it on occasion. Everything's coming up aces he says.

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