Stop to Flush Drills

[Grousehunter123]

What are some of the benefits / results you have seen come from a concerted stop-to-flush training regime? What methods do you use? Launcher? Birds from a bag? Thanks.

[Rod W]

The R&R Smith method w/e collar on flank, launchers if you have them, any way of releasing birds will work. Nick them very lightly ( this means whoa)when they get to close and you know they have winded the bird. This works fantastic on wild Ruffed Grouse!You can always hear a grouse, flush.

[DonF]

I just work it into whoa exercises. A bird falling dead, a bird walking around and a bird coming up in front. They all mean the same thing, whoa. Do it in the yard with the dog on a check cord.

[RayGubernat]

The R&R Smith method w/e collar on flank, launchers if you have them, any way of releasing birds will work. Nick them very lightly ( this means whoa)when they get to close and you know they have winded the bird. This works fantastic on wild Ruffed Grouse!You can always hear a grouse, flush.

That is actually a stop to bump in my book, but it works.

A stop to flush, properly executed, is the dog stopping and standing at the sight of a flushing bird...WITHOUT having scented the bird.

The benefits are that the BIRD in the air is what says whoa to the dog, not the handler, not the e-collar, not the checkcord. It is between the dog and the bird.

When starting out with stop to flush drills, many folks do not use any other training aids. Pigeons in remote launchers.

Of course, starting out with stop to flush is really not "starting out". It is one of the several potential "next steps" you can take with your youngster, typically after some serious yardwork has been done.

Most folks that I know use pigeons in remote launchers, but it is also possible to use hand thrown birds, especially early on, when you want to impress on the puppy the desirability of keeping at least one eye on you.

RayG

[Grousehunter123]

Ok, thanks for the quick replies. Appreciate the input. Let me fine tune my question: what SHOULD come out of a S-T-F training regime? Should it reduce creeping? Should it increase "cautiousness"? In other words what are you trying to GET from the drills.

[RayGubernat]

Ok, thanks for the quick replies. Appreciate the input. Let me fine tune my question: what SHOULD come out of a S-T-F training regime? Should it reduce creeping? Should it increase "cautiousness"? In other words what are you trying to GET from the drills.

I can't answer for anyone else, but I want the dog to stand there, tall and proud, and watch the bird fly away. I want the dog to remain standing tall and proud, until I get to the dog and collar it. I also want the youngster to keep one eye on me as it is running, so yes, I toss pigeons from a bag as well as launch them from remotes, as mentioned earlier.

For me the STF is a precursor and segue into birdwork and... yes... I believe it preconditions the dog to stop and lock up on first scent. Further training and reinforcement of the "stop on first scent or the bird is history", is, or can be(I believe)... made easier by the STF training.

RayG

[aulrich]

Aren't stop to flush drill done, up wind making scenting impossible.

1. CC the dog pas the upwind side of a bird in a launcher
2. Whoa the dog as it sees the bird fly away.
3. repeat
4. repeat some more

Not a whole lot different than honoring drills, a visual/audible queue not a scent queue

Whoa on scent is related though.

[Rod W]

Ok, thanks for the quick replies. Appreciate the input. Let me fine tune my question: what SHOULD come out of a S-T-F training regime? Should it reduce creeping? Should it increase "cautiousness"? In other words what are you trying to GET from the drills.

The great thing I get out of stop to flush is hearing ONE bird flush, instead of the entire covey. I would much rather have my dog standing on point until I get there so that I can flush, either the covey or, and it does not happen nearly enough, the birds flush one at a time!!!

[ACooper]

Aren't stop to flush drill done, up wind making scenting impossible.

1. CC the dog pas the upwind side of a bird in a launcher
2. Whoa the dog as it sees the bird fly away.
3. repeat
4. repeat some more

Not a whole lot different than honoring drills, a visual/audible queue not a scent queue

Whoa on scent is related though.

Why have the dog on a check cord?

[DonF]

The outcome of the dog stopping to flush is that if a bird flush's wild the dog will stop. Having a dog steady to flush means that when you flush the bird, the dog will just stand their until the shot or you release it.

[aulrich]

The CC is there to control the encounter, and guarantee success. No worrying the dog will run through the e-collar. The bird pops and the dog stops everytime

[Sharon]

I too see a difference between " stop to flush" and "stop to bump". I teach "stop to flush "formally , but " stop to bump " the dog learns on her own by seeing birds depart when she doesn't stop. Whatever the dog is able to learn on its own , I try to stay out of the way of ( dangling participle). I think this makes for a steadier dog at a distance , when the handler is not within sight.

[Vision]

Aren't stop to flush drill done, up wind making scenting impossible.

1. CC the dog pas the upwind side of a bird in a launcher
2. Whoa the dog as it sees the bird fly away.
3. repeat
4. repeat some more

Not a whole lot different than honoring drills, a visual/audible queue not a scent queue

Whoa on scent is related though.

Why whoa the dog, just stop them at the sight/sound of a flushing bird.

[aulrich]

It's just overlaying commands like getting a single whistle blast = whoa. when the dog hears a single whistle and whoa together enough the whoa can be dropped. when the dog sees and hears a bird flush together with whoa enough a bird flushing becomes whoa.

[Grousehunter123]

I do thank you for the posts and input. I was trying to dial in the reasons why others do Stop To Flush drills. We do drills for a reason and I think the reasons given here were to: teach that a bird flying -means WHOA. Maintaining style until handler reaches dog. Keep dog's attention on handler. Precursor to bird work. Teaching dog to stop on wild flushes.

One post touched upon it and I was wanting more discussion on it. That being to eliminate creeping and stopping on first scent.

I have a 12 mos. old setter completely whoa broke by verbal whoa, hand up (police stop), E-collar on belly or neck....all will put the breaks on and not move until whistle or tap on head. Backs another dog and won't move until released.

My goal this spring/summer is to train to help promote the stopping on first scent and eliminate any steps or creeping for the goal of ruffed grouse hunting. I know the importance of wild grouse contacts and the birds teaching the dog. However I want to do what I can in the training field. Here is my idea, what do you think???

Put out two bird launchers within 5 yards of each other. Launcher number 1 has live pigeon. Launcher number 2 had dead pigeon. Bring the dog in upwind (check corded), launch number one. Stop dog (no talking). Launch number two, fire blank, send in for retrieve. Progress until no checkcord needed. Think this has merit? Problems?? Thanks!!!

[RayGubernat]

I do thank you for the posts and input. I was trying to dial in the reasons why others do Stop To Flush drills. We do drills for a reason and I think the reasons given here were to: teach that a bird flying -means WHOA. Maintaining style until handler reaches dog. Keep dog's attention on handler. Precursor to bird work. Teaching dog to stop on wild flushes.

One post touched upon it and I was wanting more discussion on it. That being to eliminate creeping and stopping on first scent.

I have a 12 mos. old setter completely whoa broke by verbal whoa, hand up (police stop), E-collar on belly or neck....all will put the breaks on and not move until whistle or tap on head. Backs another dog and won't move until released.

My goal this spring/summer is to train to help promote the stopping on first scent and eliminate any steps or creeping for the goal of ruffed grouse hunting. I know the importance of wild grouse contacts and the birds teaching the dog. However I want to do what I can in the training field. Here is my idea, what do you think???

Put out two bird launchers within 5 yards of each other. Launcher number 1 has live pigeon. Launcher number 2 had dead pigeon. Bring the dog in upwind (check corded), launch number one. Stop dog (no talking). Launch number two, fire blank, send in for retrieve. Progress until no checkcord needed. Think this has merit? Problems?? Thanks!!!

I think you are on the right track, but you are rushing things and may confuse the dog by asking too much...too soon. Do ONE thing at a time, get it right and then move on to another thing. When you get them BOTH right...THEN you can start putting them together. I will say the best thing you are doing is absolutely keeping your mouth shut and your hands still around birds. It is soooo important for the trainer to keep the interaction between the dog and the bird and to interfere and distract as little as possible.

I would concentrate first on doing it with live birds and forget the retrieve for now. Two launchers but EACH with a live pigeon in it. If the dog stops at first scent, work the "flush" and when you have done that for thirty seconds or so with the dog stone steady...launch the bird. If the dog takes a step, moves its head, starts to crouch...launch bird #1 and, if it is on a CC, pop the checkcord. If it had the e-collar on the belly...a single low intensity nick.

Then... go back to the dog, physically pick it up off the ground, take a step or two back and gently place the dog down, front end first and back end last, gently putting down the rear legs and styling the dog up. Stroke the dog up and style it up and then stand back off to the side for at least thirty seconds and then take a single step in and launch bird # 2. You want the dog to win this one('cause you ain't got another bird in a launcher) so you don't want to tempt it too much. Then collar the dog, give it a pat on the flank and walk it(or carry it) out of there and put the dog up. Quit a winner. One and done is a very good way to do this. If you want to do more training, let the dog sit in a crate or chaingang for a half hour or so.

If you want to do retrieve work, you can do most of what you need in the yard with a dummy until the dog has the pointing thing down pat.

Once the dog is doing it right...stopping on first scent...no steps...no creeping, no crouching... you can start thinking about killing birds and retrieving. I would not launch dead birds out of a trap. They don't go all that far and basically go straight up and down...not good. That is a whole lot of temptation.

If you have one of those zinger winger thingies, maybe, because the bird will get thrown quite a distance. I would rather launch and then shoot a pigeon, but if that is not an option, I would just throw the dead bird myself.

One thing you can do if you cannot shoot a bird is to tether a pigeon to a weight, like a horseshoe with about a 25-40 ft length of Mason cord or light line. Put the bird in the trap, launch and when the bird gets almost to the end of the string, fire your blank gun. The bird will hit the end of the string and come down like a stone. It can be a lot of temptation also, but you are more in control of the situation than if you were trying to shoot the bird with a shotgun.

Hope some of this is of use.

RayG

[aulrich]

Have you seen the steadying process from Perfect Finish, to a certain extent resembles the drill for steady to shot. The two launchers twist could be handy to those without a helper.

But basically what Ray just said, and if you have not seen Perfect Start/Perfect Finish, get a hold of it.

[Grousehunter123]

Yes, got both DVD's as well as 38 years of training my own dogs under my belt!! Great DVD's....I agree and recommend them as well.

Ray...one heck of a good post. Helpful. I may be stepping on my pud over this and if so tell me. I'm talking about Stop To Flush drills being used as a precursor to the activity in the post you made last. I think everything you described is 100% spot on and helps me and anybody else that reads it. I may have cabin fever up here in the north, but I was essentially wondering if S-T-F drills (which DONT involve scent) smoothed the way for the drills (which involve scent) you described ULTIMATELY for wild ruffed grouse pointing success. Ruffed grouse pointing success involves stopping at first scent and NOT MOVING A MUSCLE after that.

[rinker]

I see a lot of posts about teaching a pup to 'stop at first scent'. I wonder if everyone interprets this the same way. In my opinion if you literally teach a dog to point or stop every time at the first acknowledgement of scent, you may find that you have a lot of unproductives later on. In my opinion there is a difference in smelling a bird and knowing that there is a bird, or has been a bird, some where vs having the bird accurately located. I think this is a very subtle point, but I do think it is important.

In the future when you do start letting your dog retrieve, I would not shoot every bird for him. The dog will eventually start anticipating a retrieve and it will be tough to keep him steady through the whole process. I would kill a bird and let him retrieve, and then I might let one fly off, I would even occasionally kill a bird but walk out and pick it up yourself and not let him retrieve.

I will give you my take on a stop to flush drill that I do. When puppies are young and I am running them, I will occasionally call to the puppy, get his attention and then toss a pigeon. This does several things. It really gets a puppy excited about going with me and listening to me because he is rewarded for doing so with a tossed pigeon. Early on the puppy will chase the flying pigeon until it is out of sight. As time goes on the puppy learns that the only thing he gets from an all out pigeon chase is hot and tired. The chases get shorter and shorter and some puppies will start to stand and watch the pigeon fly off on their own. I really think that this makes the breaking process much easier later on.

[Grousehunter123]

Rinker I agree about unproductives. As you may know ruffed grouse have challenges for the dog that wild bobwhite quail (for example) do not necessarily have. Occasionally I get (from my experienced setter) hard lock down slammed points like is familiar with a covey of quail where the dog STICKS them. But most grouse points involve a grouse pointed, held and the grouse walks away. It gets compounded by the fact my dogs "get out there" relatively speaking for grouse dogs. It takes time to get to them because of the foliage. Point being...grouse hunters get "more" unproductives regardless, in my experience. The trick can be the release and relocate on a "runner". I chose to release and don't allow self relocation when I'm actively up on the dog and trying to produce the flush. I like for My dogs not to move once they establish their point. Period. Horses for courses.

So....the stop at first scent methodology does produce unproductives as you pointed out, but it also keeps the grouse from flushing as they just won't tolerate a dog that makes many mistakes. I've chosen to accept the unproductives, get real excited with the "lock-down stuck" grouse point when I get them....and live with the relocate and hopefully successive point(s) in follow up work. Most grouse hunters know this scenario: dog goes on point, I am 20-25 yards out ahead trying to get a flush, grouse flushes another 20-25 yards beyond me to only hear the wing beats and see no bird behind thick cover!!

[campgsp]

After reading through this im confused.
I thought stop to flush was the dog stops and stands on a wild flushed bird. A bird that is never pointed or scented.
A bird thats pointed and flushes after is steady to flush and or bump.
These are two different scenarios to me.
And taught in different ways.

[Neil]

I don't do a lot of specific stop to flush drills, it just seems to come with steady to wing and shot.

I do not train to stop at first scent, it is up to the dog to learn how close he can get to pen it, no matter the species. No creeping, ever, hit them hard and hold them. Works better on Huns, sharptail, pheasant, Bob White, than blues and ruffed, but it works on all.

BTW, judges need to know the difference between flush, where the dog should be expected to have seen or heard the bird take off; and the flight of a bird where he could not. Once in the air flying overhead, how is the dog to know a sparrow from a quail? Does not excuse a chase, but the dog should be allowed to ignore birds flushed from a distance and just flying by.

[slistoe]

I do not train to stop at first scent, it is up to the dog to learn how close he can get to pen it, no matter the species.

Yeah, that one.

[slistoe]

Once in the air flying overhead, how is the dog to know a sparrow from a quail?

Don't know about quail, but my dogs have always been able to tell Sharptail, pheasants and Huns from every other random bird flying overhead. The only curious thing to me is that a few of them would give magpies at a distance second glances and stutter steps as though they couldn't decide.

[slistoe]

Does not excuse a chase, but the dog should be allowed to ignore birds flushed from a distance and just flying by.

Agreed.

[h&t]

I think you are on the right track.............
RayG

I bookmarked this post thanks, Ray.