VIDEO, Steady to Wing, Shot, Fall

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:17 pm

Jack is a nine month old German Shorthair. He has been in training for six weeks and is steady to Wing, Shot and Fall. In this video he does a nice deferred retrieve, where he waits for the shooter to bring the bird back to him. Now that he understands that steadiness leads to success (a bird in his mouth), we will begin allowing him some of the retrieves.

http://youtu.be/AlpgQujbH-M

Brad Higgins
http://www.HigginsGundogs.com

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:28 pm

Nice.

KwikIrish · Post by **KwikIrish** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:47 am

Mr.Higgins,
I enjoyed the video but am left with a few questions.
How do you feel about the creeping? What that acceptable at this dogs stage in training(given he is only 9 months)? How would you go about correcting this in this scenario as the dog was still rewarded with a bird at the end, despite the creeping?
Also, once the bird was shot the dog starts to crumple, especially as you are walking back. Is this a concern for you?
I'm asking as I have a dog who loses all intensity once that bird flies. I am planning to put her in some multiple bird delayed flush situations to keep her up and intense, though she doesn't crumple.
Thanks
Kelli

will-kelly · Post by **will-kelly** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:57 am

Once again Brad your system impresses me. At nine months of age what I see with that dog is that it understands what's going on from a hunting stand point. Having switch to the West method in the last four months it's amazing how when I look at the dog like this I can see the natural progression of the system.

I realize that the Higgins system is somewhat different but the natural instinct in the dog shines through when you allow that to be what controls the training and not what you expect from The dog at a certain age.

I'd like to see what this dog looks like in another three months. Hopefully you're following the progression of this dog in some form of a video series start to finish that either you're going to put up for sale or as I know you have in the past put it on YouTube for people to consume free of charge.

Either way the insight into how you train dogs is refreshing as well as educational and I look forward to each video that you post.

Cicada · Post by **Cicada** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:01 am

Very Impressive I presume the pup has been introduced to birds at an early time. Your methods back up just how much a dog learns from watching.

Grant

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:06 am

Hello Kelli,

I'm glad you liked the video. Before I answer your questions, it's important you understand that the foundation of my method is different from conventional, obedience based training. Instead of teaching commands that are then enforced in specific situations, I train the dogs the same way I train the hawks and falcons. Show them success first, then begin influencing the hunting/training situation to show them that the best way to be successful is to use me.

In watching my videos, it's important to have an open mind. You'll see the dog do things and react in natural ways that at first, for those unfamiliar with my method, can easily be misread. In my method, the dogs are shown what works (using the Magic Brushpile, steadiness leads to success) then are guided through the choices they make. I encourage them to make choices, to have free will to learn what works. You get to see the true cunning nature of the predator mind at work.

Back to your questions. What you see as creeping is not what's going on in his mind. I define creeping as moving forward on a bird with the intent to flush, chase or catch it. That's not what he's thinking. As I approach, he moves slightly forward to join me. I simply slow down my pace and face him. He knows instinctively to allow me (the one with the power to catch the bird) to claim space and he settles. I know this because sometimes, if a dog moves forward while I'm out front, I will simply leave. He will always wait for my return and be a rock when I go back out front to kill his bird. He wasn't punished for moving, it simply wasn't going to be successful. That's the difference between natural learning and training.

He gets the bird at the end because he cooperated and did all that I asked. I don't punish him for making choices. Being allowed to make choices is not training, it's learning. I reward correct choices. At this stage, he knows how to get it done. All I do now is put him in different hunting situation with wild and released birds so he can apply what he has learned to become experienced and seasoned.

At the end, when I bring him the bird, you describe his reaction as "starts to crumple". You see his reaction as a result of trainer induced pressure to make him steady. That's not what he's thinking. This dog has not had an e-collar used on him and he has never heard the word "whoa". What the dog is actually doing is showing respect for the pack member with the power. You see dogs, wolves, coyotes, etc. do this all the time. I just use what they were born knowing and mold it to allow me to hunt with them.

I hope I answered your questions. My method is unique but as you know, there are many methods that can lead to a steady dog. This is what works for me.

Brad Higgins
http://www.HigginsGundogs.com

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:41 am

Very nice dog, little creeping but at nine month's, who cares? I'd like to see the same pup at the end of the bird season or the start of the next. I suspect some tune up will be needed. Very nice dog though!!!

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:42 pm

At the end, when I bring him the bird, you describe his reaction as "starts to crumple". You see his reaction as a result of trainer induced pressure to make him steady.

That's a mouthful right there. So, did the dog go to a trainer to get started before you? You had the dog for 6 weeks, that makes dogs age 6 1/2 months old. Where did the pack leader pressure start from? Prior trainer?

Kelli, dogs heads and tails will tell you a lot, you just have be a little open minded, and listen to them. It will all come out in the wash. Thanks Jonesy

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:36 pm

Higgins wrote:Hello Kelli,

I'm glad you liked the video. Before I answer your questions, it's important you understand that the foundation of my method is different from conventional, obedience based training. Instead of teaching commands that are then enforced in specific situations, I train the dogs the same way I train the hawks and falcons. Show them success first, then begin influencing the hunting/training situation to show them that the best way to be successful is to use me.

In watching my videos, it's important to have an open mind. You'll see the dog do things and react in natural ways that at first, for those unfamiliar with my method, can easily be misread. In my method, the dogs are shown what works (using the Magic Brushpile, steadiness leads to success) then are guided through the choices they make. I encourage them to make choices, to have free will to learn what works. You get to see the true cunning nature of the predator mind at work.

Back to your questions. What you see as creeping is not what's going on in his mind. I define creeping as moving forward on a bird with the intent to flush, chase or catch it. That's not what he's thinking. As I approach, he moves slightly forward to join me. I simply slow down my pace and face him. He knows instinctively to allow me (the one with the power to catch the bird) to claim space and he settles. I know this because sometimes, if a dog moves forward while I'm out front, I will simply leave. He will always wait for my return and be a rock when I go back out front to kill his bird. He wasn't punished for moving, it simply wasn't going to be successful. That's the difference between natural learning and training.

He gets the bird at the end because he cooperated and did all that I asked. I don't punish him for making choices. Being allowed to make choices is not training, it's learning. I reward correct choices. At this stage, he knows how to get it done. All I do now is put him in different hunting situation with wild and released birds so he can apply what he has learned to become experienced and seasoned.

At the end, when I bring him the bird, you describe his reaction as "starts to crumple". You see his reaction as a result of trainer induced pressure to make him steady. That's not what he's thinking. This dog has not had an e-collar used on him and he has never heard the word "whoa". What the dog is actually doing is showing respect for the pack member with the power. You see dogs, wolves, coyotes, etc. do this all the time. I just use what they were born knowing and mold it to allow me to hunt with them.

I hope I answered your questions. My method is unique but as you know, there are many methods that can lead to a steady dog. This is what works for me.

Brad Higgins
http://www.HigginsGundogs.com

Well said. Very interesting. Thanks.

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:59 pm

tailcrackin wrote:That's a mouthful right there. So, did the dog go to a trainer to get started before you? You had the dog for 6 weeks, that makes dogs age 6 1/2 months old. Where did the pack leader pressure start from? Prior trainer?

Hello Tailcrackin,

There has been no pressure put on the dog and it has had no other trainer. What you describe as "pack leader pressure" is actually the dog showing respect to the one who has the power to catch the bird. He was born knowing this, no training necessary.

As far as prior training, the dog had some bump and chase before being brought to me. In the 6 weeks I had the dog, I first gave him lots of bird exposure and introduced him to gunfire. Then, I helped him learn that to be successful he needed to be steady on singles and coveys of quail and chukar. I can get this kind of steadiness at a young age because I don't use any pressure. The only pressure these dogs know is the pressure provided by the bird. If the dog gets pushy or careless on his birds, they leave and he looses.

This dog went home today. The owner has been here the last couple of days to learn how to handle the dog. He did a great job. Great to see the teamwork between an owner and his dog. The dog was handled by the owner steady to wing, shot and kill. Retrieved some birds too.

I recorded some of the fieldwork today of the owner and his steady dog. I can post it if you like.

Brad Higgins
www.Higginsgundogs.com

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:06 pm

Please do.thanks

Nutmeg247 · Post by **Nutmeg247** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:49 pm

Thanks very much for that video.

What do you do in the case of a dog for whom the chase itself is a bigger reinforcer than seeing and smelling the bird, and then getting the bird in its mouth? I have a pointer where I'm working on taking the chase away to get him steady to wing, at least. Currently he will actually be close to steady (usually a bit of creep) to wing on pigeons if he knows there are one or two still in the area and only one goes up. I'm working on bridging from there to being steady to wing on quail and chukar. At present if two or three birds flush, even sequentially, by the third he's usually off to the races.

Would you say the Higgins method emphasizes positive reinforcement, with the bird itself as the reward in most cases?

Thanks and regards,

John

S&J gsp · Post by **S&J gsp** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:53 pm

I'd like too see the other videos

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:10 am

Nutmeg247 wrote:Thanks very much for that video.

What do you do in the case of a dog for whom the chase itself is a bigger reinforcer than seeing and smelling the bird, and then getting the bird in its mouth? I have a pointer where I'm working on taking the chase away to get him steady to wing, at least. Currently he will actually be close to steady (usually a bit of creep) to wing on pigeons if he knows there are one or two still in the area and only one goes up. I'm working on bridging from there to being steady to wing on quail and chukar. At present if two or three birds flush, even sequentially, by the third he's usually off to the races.

Would you say the Higgins method emphasizes positive reinforcement, with the bird itself as the reward in most cases?

Thanks and regards,

John

Hello John,

Before I can give you any advice about your dog, we need to figure out what he's thinking. A couple of questions. If your dog hunts and finds a bird, will he point naturally? And if he does, and you stay away and leave him alone, will he eventually rush in and aggressively try to catch it?

In regard to your question about operant conditioning, I don't like the terms "positive" and "negative" reinforcement. Each is too narrow a description of what is actually happening. Positive reinforcement might be related to catching the bird but negative reinforcement, the loss of the bird, is just as important. The dogs need to experience both to learn that steadiness leads to success.

Brad Higgins
http://www.HigginsGundogs.com

Fun dog · Post by **Fun dog** » Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:37 am

Last spring I was working with my pup on steadiness. She had pointed a bird and then started to creep. I was all ready to correct her when I was given the instruction to let her go. Don't say anything. She took a step and another and I was sure she was going to have quail for lunch, but when she passed a certain point the bird flew away. My pup stopped and I could see the wheels turning. The next bird she didn't creep on. So both of us learned something. She learned that if she moved off point she lost the bird and I learned that it's okay for the dog to make a mistake as they will learn from it. Sometimes it's okay to let the bird teach the dog. She's now very steady on birds.

Nutmeg247 · Post by **Nutmeg247** » Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:27 pm

...
Before I can give you any advice about your dog, we need to figure out what he's thinking. A couple of questions. If your dog hunts and finds a bird, will he point naturally? And if he does, and you stay away and leave him alone, will he eventually rush in and aggressively try to catch it?...
Brad Higgins
http://www.HigginsGundogs.com[/quote]

Assuming he's not revved up already, he will point naturally. He at some point does lose patience and then normally tries a slow-stalk to get closer, and then rushes in and tries to catch the bird; he has caught a few, so has experienced occasional success from doing this.

He will intentionally bust birds if he's already excited from chasing another bird, though.

Thanks!

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:46 pm

Its impressive for a young dog to stand at that age, I know you said no pressure was put on him during that process. But his body language IMO says otherwise. He looks brow beaten to me, and lets down as you approach him to flush the bird and as you are walking back with the dead bird. My dog respects me as the pack leader, but does not crouch or cower when I walk back to him. JMO though!

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:54 pm

I had those same thoughts when I watched too Josh. Not what I would like to see in my dogs anyway!!

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:26 pm

You guys are misreading the dog. His reaction is not at all what you think. It's not based on obedience or pressure. Read more about what I do. Might give you some new ideas about training and working with the dogs.

Brad Higgins
http://www.Higginsgundogs.com

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:41 pm

I might be misreading the dog but my dogs don't act like that so I don't need to learn how to make them react like that.We have difference of opinions I guess you handle things your way & I will do the same.
If you don't want difference of opinions don't put up stuff to get them & I'm not a pro so how I handle MY DOGS is up to me.

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:46 pm

Here is a video of the same dog a couple of days later when the owner came to pick him up. I started a new topic with this updated video but I think it would be useful to post it in this thread too.

http://youtu.be/V3letgmhir4

Hope it is helpful. Let me know what you think.

Brad Higgins
http://www.Higginsgundogs.com

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:56 pm

That is the same video we are talking about.If you don't care about style you can break a 6 mo old pup.Not what I want.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:05 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:That is the same video we are talking about.If you don't care about style you can break a 6 mo old pup.Not what I want.

I agree Ted. With no offense intended, it is just not the method for me.

Charlie

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:23 pm

If you just want a hunting dog & don't care what they look like it's not hard to break a dog of any age but if you want a dog that enjoys what they are doing & you can see it in them you have to take your time & not scare them into it.
JMO but what do I know I'm old & the OLD ways aren't the BEST ways so I've been told!! But I will continue what works for me.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:47 pm

Nothing wrong with your method, I just dont want my dog acting like that. I want him standing tall and confident. Tail is not that much as of an issue, but lowering/crouching as I walk back is not what I want. I trial of course so I want as much style and confidence as possible.

bhulisa · Post by **bhulisa** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:45 am

As I watched the video, what occurred to me is the that dog crouches as the handler is walking back in anticipation of the throw. I don't know how it was accomplished that the dog understands not to move forward, but apparently he does. So his anticipation of the throw of the bird induces a different movement, and if the throw of the bird has always been toward him and down or to the side or behind, that is where the dogs movement might go? Some dogs in any case display this crouching when teasing them with a dummy to throw - don't throw until the dog is relatively still, and some dogs will crouch in anticipation even though they are not being restrained and the throw is forward.

While some of you may not like that, I am not convinced it is "pressure" induced in the way that is inferred.

I would be interested in knowing how the dog reacts once he is allowed to retrieve the bird when it is down, rather than wait until the handler returns with it. In this case, the reward for the bird is to move forward - will the dog maintain it's steadiness after learning it can reward itself by going forward? Higgins, how do you adjust your training situation at that point?

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:06 am

Hello Bhulisa,

Good question. The dog has learned that steadiness is rewarded. He knows that if he moves, he won't get the bird. He is in control of any pressure associated with his bird work. In training, When the dog is waiting for the reward, we often see this natural, what I call "respectful submission". I find that this behavior is not related to a dogs age or level of maturity. In most other training methods, those based on obedience, you don't get to see this natural behavior because the dog is not allowed to be in control and make choices related to his success (the bird in his mouth).

Here is a video I did a while back. It shows an overview of my method and addresses this "respectful submission".

http://youtu.be/wvaOvt9sMqs

Brad Higgins
http://www.Higginsgundogs

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:41 am

I don't think this method could be used on a dog that trials. Have you ever trained a dog strictly on this method that got its FC in horse back trials? I just don't think it's possible without using an e-collar or tons and tons of wild birds. JMO.

As far as this natural submissive cowering - I don't know. A confident dog that likes to retrieve will not do that imo. Never seen it in a winning trial dog before - my dogs love to point and retrieve and have never done this. They are high and tight on their birds the whole time until tapped to retrieve (some times my V's tail will drop a tad if he doesn't smell it well when I flush, but he caught birds as a puppy and took a bit of pressure to break).

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:11 am

Hello bb560m,

As you know, there are many venues out there including walking and horseback trials, hunt tests, tournament hunting, etc. Our venue is foot hunting and shooting wild and released birds. What I call '"classic hunting".

You mentioned "natural submissive cowering". What do you think would cause a dog to do as you described?

Brad Higgins
www.Higginsgundogs.com

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:46 am

Higgins wrote:What do you think would cause a dog to do as you described?

I think 1 or a combo of these 3:

Too much pressure
Dog was too young to be standing
Dog caught too many birds as a puppy

I'm not saying everyone has to do trials and I'm sure your method is fine for the average foot hunter - just don't think it'd be possible to do this and win with a big running, high drive, field trial dog. jmho.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:28 am

Like I said before If you just want a hunting dog to shoot birds over & don't care what he looks like your fine.I personally don't want that even in a hunting dog I want a dog that enjoys what he is doing & looks like he enjoys it.
Here is an example of how I feel,yrs ago I use to attend some NSTRA trials with friends though I never competed.There was a GSP I saw at several trials that was winning & placing this particular dog's tail looked like it was glued to it's butt it never even twitched,looked the same on point,running,didn't matter.I heard some one say you can buy that dog for $600,my thought was you would have to pay me $600 to take it.The dog did find birds so yes you could hunt over it but I wouldn't want to.I don't know if this dog may have had an injury,or if it was training,breeding,or what but I wouldn't have owned it.This is all JMO so not saying no one else would like it.Heck most young hunters only care about killing birds no matter if a pointing dog flushes them or how it's done aslong as they put birds in the bag!! If the dogs owner is happy then that's all that really matters.

mtlhdr · Post by **mtlhdr** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:58 am

To be fair, you need to watch the whole video (the second one posted) to see the dog's progression. I agree what is seen in the first video (the same clip as the first part of the second video), and what a lot of folks are commenting on, is probably not what a lot folks want to see. To me, it looks like the pup is a little unsure of what its doing/being asked to do and that's reflected in its body language. Look at the dog at 2:30, 3:27, and 5:00 minute marks of the second video. It's a dog that is a lot more sure of itself. Granted, the tail might have dropped a touch at the 5:00 minute mark as Brad is kicking the bush. Still might not be what a lot of folks are looking for (and maybe that pup doesn't have it in him no matter what training method). I can't comment if the method is right, wrong, good, or bad, but it probably shouldn't be judged on one short clip early in training. FWIW.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:25 pm

I watched the whole video a couple times to me a dog that shrinks when being walked up to has had TOO much pressure but it's not my dog!

mtlhdr · Post by **mtlhdr** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:36 pm

I'll watch it again. I am the first to admit I am learning, so I'd like to see what others are seeing. Reading a dog is obviously so critical to training it, and it's something you can only learn with experience.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:43 pm

As this dog is hunted it may or may not improve but I don't want to get to that point to start with.I'm not trying to bad mouth the dog or the trainer just not what I like to see but I realize I have different goals.

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:32 pm

Lets just say we have different venues and leave it at that. My venue is to hunt and shoot birds over steady, classy dogs. If you want to see the kind of excellence I expect from the dogs, take a look at my videos.

Brad Higgins
www.HigginsGundogs.com

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:37 pm

I agree we have different venues, but the same dog that I trial is the same dog I throw in the truck to hunt wild birds.

Here is a dog, standing steady to wing and shot on a WILD covey of chukars, the gunner did not do a great job at hitting the bird... This is how I want my dogs to handle birds being worked in front of him. No cowering, however you want to describe it, or what you think causes it or what it means. I just dont want my dogs doing that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1BgY8CnwKs

This whole topic is based on your video that we watched..

Different strokes for different folks, as long as people are enjoying their hounds!

bhulisa · Post by **bhulisa** » Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:12 am

Thanks Higgins, your videos are very interesting and I enjoyed them. Not sure what aspects might be applicable, though - it's hard to teach us old dogs new tricks

I had a hard enough time coming to terms with some Clicker training.....

, but once I found a balance that worked in my training framework I am glad I did.

Trudi

bhulisa · Post by **bhulisa** » Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:22 am

Oh I forgot...that was a gorgeous Wirehair pup in the video!!

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:25 am

I think there is knowledge of the dog not shown in the video. But If you take away a high value thing like a big meaty Bone and then put it back in a young dogs face, they often will look away from the thing and lower themselves a bit. This IS a form of respecting that you are the boss and that thing is yours and I am not going to take it again. Even without any beating or pressure. They do this among themselves. Have you ever seen a dog with a toy "parade" it by a more submissive dog? They are asking the other dog to "prove" that they respect the toy is not theirs. right now. In this particular video it looks extreme, but when you have seen several of the other higgins videos with young dogs worked through the brush pile, you begin to get the concept. What I do see is a dog that is not very bold, at least at that moment.

The dog is percieving pressure though probably more social than "trained" This throwing the bird back thing is an interestng behavioral thing. Someone was talking about this for an honoring dog. I have been mulling over it's implications. How the handler carries himself or herself, how far away they are from the dog, and how bold the individual dog is probably play a big role, too.

buckshot1 · Post by **buckshot1** » Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:08 pm

Interesting discussion and differences of opinion. I'm wondering if the cowering goes away and the steadiness improves once the dog transitions to making its own retrieves further along in the process. My dogs certainly perk up in anticipation of a retrieve. The cowering seems to occur in the videos when the handler retrieves the bird. Mr. Higgins, in your experience does the dog's body language change once the handler lets the dog retrieve?

I also have a question about your method of steadying the dog to the shot and kill. I understand how you steady the dog before the flush (walk away if the dog creeps) and after the flush (walk away and don't shoot if the dog breaks) by rewarding good decisions, which your videos explain. How do you respond to a dog who is steady through the flush but decides to chase after the shot or the kill?

NLsetter · Post by **NLsetter** » Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:03 pm

The crouching after the bird is shot is the dogs anticipation of getting the bird as the handler retrieves it. Let the birds teach the dog is the best there is. Like your training style!

Wildirishman64 · Post by **Wildirishman64** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:11 pm

Impressive to say the least!