Steady to wsf without whoa

Bluesky2012 · Post by **Bluesky2012** » Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:34 pm

Does anyone here train steadiness without teaching whoa? Reason being I finished FF with my dog and now he has a tendency to sit when I say whoa. He doesn't do it on point, but just wanted to see if anyone doesn't use any commands for steadiness so I can avoid re-teaching whoa because right now we're focusing mostly on the ducks till quail season.

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:28 pm

If you have trained him to associate the word "whoa" with sitting, why don't you just use a different word. My guess is though you may have a different issue going on.
As an aside, what kind of dog are we talking about.

SetterNut · Post by **SetterNut** » Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:40 pm

Get the book, "Training with Mo", great method and does not use Whoa on birds.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:50 pm

Another tactic would be to do heel/whoa drills, after the manner of Paul Long and do them silently. I would use a wonderlead or a pinch or prong collar.

If the dogs starts to rock back into a sitting position when you stop, you step off immediately, simultaneously popping the lead and do not allow the dog to sit.

They figure that one out too.

RayG

Bluesky2012 · Post by **Bluesky2012** » Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:47 am

Ray that's what I needed to hear. It's a GSP, and it's not the phrase whoa that does it, it's simply he's used to sitting everytime we stop if he's at heel, so I'm just trying to keep him from dropping the rear end. That should fix it though.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:32 am

IMO a better way than stepping off is to say "No, Whoa" gently step on the inside hind foot, and pull the dog ahead. A dog HATES to have his feet messed with.

You can also simply use sit-whoa drills, alternating between them and correcting on whoa when he sits. You have somehow made "sit" the dog's default "safe" command. He sits to be safe when given a restrictive command.

Bluesky2012 · Post by **Bluesky2012** » Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:50 am

gonehuntin,
I agree that its become his default command, and its because of how much it has been used recently for his retrieving work. I hadn't used whoa in a while with him.

Could you elaborate more on what you are describing with stepping on the back foot. Do you mean step on the foot, pull him forward to essentially pull him into a whoa position?

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:36 am

Bluesky2012 wrote:gonehuntin,
I agree that its become his default command, and its because of how much it has been used recently for his retrieving work. I hadn't used whoa in a while with him.

Could you elaborate more on what you are describing with stepping on the back foot. Do you mean step on the foot, pull him forward to essentially pull him into a whoa position?

Yes, that's exactly right. Command NO, WHOA and the same time lifting your left heel, pivoting the foot left and GENTLY stepping on his back toe, then pulling up and forward at the same time. Their feet are very fragile and sensitive so never stomp on a dog's foot.

This is a faster way of getting him out of sit than simply walking forward with him. You are giveing him an actual correction for performing a command incorrectly and showing him immediately why you are displeased and how to avoid it.

Bluesky2012 · Post by **Bluesky2012** » Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:42 am

Sounds good. Makes sense.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:07 am

One value in the whoa barrel is this does not happen.

At this stage you can try the e-collar on the flank.

Not sure I would worry about it.

Bluesky2012 · Post by **Bluesky2012** » Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:05 pm

Neil would you agree then in the way they are describing to fix the sitting on whoa? Like I said, he won't do it on birds because I have never commanded whoa on birds, but I want to find a way to make him steady the whole way through with birds.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:50 pm

Bluesky2012 wrote:Neil would you agree then in the way they are describing to fix the sitting on whoa? Like I said, he won't do it on birds because I have never commanded whoa on birds, but I want to find a way to make him steady the whole way through with birds.

Sure, there are always a number of ways to train that will work, just what you are most comfortable doing. Give the one a good try, the one you like the best. If it doesn't work, consider another. You need a number of tools in your tool box.

Bluesky2012 · Post by **Bluesky2012** » Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:53 pm

Sounds good. I've watched videos with multiple methods, my issue was that with doing the waterfowl training when I did, I needed extra tools or validation that what I was doing would fix the issue. I figure reps of what y'all are saying will work for me.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:23 pm

One to add to what has been said.
Use the flush to mean whoa.
Use the gun to mean whoa.

clink83 · Post by **clink83** » Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:32 pm

You could use Dave Walkers version of the West method. Teach him to standup/stand still nonverbally, and if he sits while doing it you put your foot under him and bump his hocks when he sits while pushing down on his rear end. You also don't have to use whoa in that training method.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:50 pm

another way might be to stop to flush train him with the e collar.....

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:07 pm

The way I see it is the dog is doing what you trained it to do, leave it alone. You start over to teach whoa from a heel and the dog is going to try to sit because you taught it that. Use a different method to teach whoa. Sherri Ebert has a super video on using the barrel, even I got where she was coming from. The only method I've ever used is the original Delmar method, always worked for me. For me the whoa post is perfect. I think there is two things that are a must in the whoa post without the flank collar, you have to understand how to properly use a check cord and you have to have your timing down. it has been a lot of years since I've seen anyone work the cc the way Delmar taught it. I look at cc's in dog supply house's and for the most part I would pay them not to send me one of those things. I think Gun Dog Supply has some junk cc's but I believe it was there I also saw a very good one. I think it was 1/2" tight woven nylon with a hard core, 20' long and the snap was tied on with a bowline. If you read Delmars book he explains the reason's for the cc the way it is and how to properly use it. Bill Tarrent wrote that book with the help of Delmar and did a great job of getting the point home. The reason for a 20' cc is that one much longer get's very hard to handle properly, 20' is what most people can learn to use well. But I see cc's for sale in catalogs that are 50' long and the snap is put on almost 100% of them with that metal clip, junk at best. And the flat nylon one's I find an abomination.

I remember reading in Amer Fld years ago a deal by Dr. Alvin Nitchmans daughter. They were at an event of some kind and she and her dad and a few other people were standing around watching. Guy in the field flushed a bird for his dog and the dog broke. The guy started yelling whoa at the dog over and over. The dog continued on it's merry way chasing the bird. Dr Nitchman looked at the guy next to him and said, "I wonder what he tells his dog when he wants it to stop and stand still"? I will never forget that line, think about it!

Francois P vd Walt · Post by **Francois P vd Walt** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:13 pm

Din I agree with leaving it alone I feel sometimes that we give far to many commands, thinking about it I wonder what he tells his dog to whoa.... I found it very very funny indeed! In my book repeating commands is bad and giving a command you can not enforce will undo all work done before.

Dogs work on a lot more than a command they read body language far better than any command! Small things you do consistantly mean far more to the dog than words they do not undestand, they rather react to your body language after the words.
When you dog sits down and you do not approve and move on he soon will move with you and once they getbthe whole deal hunting for you they will hold the birds for you and wait for your approval to fetch once the birds drops.

Meller · Post by **Meller** » Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:30 am

Talk to Maurice Lindly, or better yet take your dog and let him see him; I believe he lives in NC.

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:43 am

Yea, as close as you are, Maurice Lindley would be a good one, on watching and seeing it happen. He is just outside of Greenville South Carolina. You can friend me on fb, and look at some of my videos on there. Its not set private, but don't know if you can look at, or not. My face book is Dave Jones Berea, Kentucky. Be happy to help you out, along with Maurice. Thanks Jonesy

Meller · Post by **Meller** » Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:20 pm

Sorry I looked where you were from and put North Carolina instead of South Carolina.

Taking him to Jonesy would be a good idea also!
Thanks Jonesy for the correction .

myerstenn · Post by **myerstenn** » Sun Nov 17, 2013 2:12 pm

I never teach a bird dog to sit for the same reasons,it creates problems when pressure is applied. Did you teach him whoa and then make him sit?

Bluesky2012 · Post by **Bluesky2012** » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:30 am

Hey sorry for not being around for a while, been hunting.

I am going to be using the methods mentioned in the future when i can get on some birds. In regards to whoa, I just went back and re-worked him through some whoa drills and its all fine. He was just a little anxious because we had done force fetch and a lot of duck work involving sit, so he went to that as a default. Since getting long past the not-fun force fetch stuff, he has really lregained his confidence and is whoa-ing fine. No worries.

As well, his retrieve is money now. Had pulled in a few ducks recently and a canada goose this past weekend.

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