E Collar placement

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John S
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E Collar placement

Post by John S » Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:13 am

I've seen some pictures of dogs with E Collars placed around their belly. What is the reasoning for this?

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Re: E Collar placement

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:45 am

I'm guessing either effectiveness or an overuse of voltage at an earlier date.....essentially, the reason may be dog-driven.

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Re: E Collar placement

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:25 am

This is my understanding. May be flawed, but...

The collar around the neck is essentially an obedience position. Its primary use and function is the reinforcement of obedience commands... Heel, whoa, come, etc. which have been taught to the dog with the neck being the point of contact, generally via a checkcord coupled with a prong or pinch collar, or a wonder lead.

Use of the collar around the waist is generally reserved for use around birds, typically with dogs that are of softer temperament. You can use MUCH lower stim levels around the waist, and for most dogs, most of the time, they, for some reason, do not associate the stim with the bird in a negative way,which is to say that they tend NOT to lose style and get squirrely around birds when low level stim is applied for things like taking steps and roading in.

I have seen dogs with collars around the waist because the trainer improperly overused the collar on the neck to the point where the dog tolerated and ignored the highest level stim on the neck... but to me, this is a totally wrong usage of the device and indicates a human that needs more training than the dog.

I would strongly recommend that anyone attempting to use a collar on the flank, first seek out an accomplished trainer who is thoroughly familiar with the techniques involved. That trainer can show the student the proper method of placement and the proper usage. Even though I have never really used a flank collar, I thought I knew how to set up and use the collar in that position. Turns out I was wrong.

Get someone to show you.

RayG

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Re: E Collar placement

Post by Neil » Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:26 am

What Ray said, plus the dog is less likely to go down in the back with the collar on the flank.

Simply put the collar on the neck is the steering wheel (and in the very skilled the gas pedal) on the flank the brakes.

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Re: E Collar placement

Post by rinker » Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:30 am

When 'whoa' is taught using a whoa post with a hitch around the flank, the 'point of contact' for whoa is the flank. The ecollar around the flank is an extension of that. I keep the ecollar around the flank until I am confident that the dog is reliably broke, and then I transition away from it. I have been doing this for the past couple of years with young dogs and it seems to make things easier for them to understand.

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Re: E Collar placement

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:15 am

rinker wrote:When 'whoa' is taught using a whoa post with a hitch around the flank, the 'point of contact' for whoa is the flank. The ecollar around the flank is an extension of that. I keep the ecollar around the flank until I am confident that the dog is reliably broke, and then I transition away from it. I have been doing this for the past couple of years with young dogs and it seems to make things easier for them to understand.

I do not use a whoa post, at least I have not yet...but doing it that way makes perfect sense to me and probably to the dog too.

RayG

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displaced_texan
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Re: E Collar placement

Post by displaced_texan » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:21 am

Neil wrote:What Ray said, plus the dog is less likely to go down in the back with the collar on the flank.

Simply put the collar on the neck is the steering wheel (and in the very skilled the gas pedal) on the flank the brakes.
Flank = brakes is exactly what a buddy does. He has a dog that loves to chase deer. Flank is the only thing that gets his attention when he takes off.
I have English Pointers because they don't ever grow up either...

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Re: E Collar placement

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:18 am

displaced_texan wrote:
Neil wrote:What Ray said, plus the dog is less likely to go down in the back with the collar on the flank.

Simply put the collar on the neck is the steering wheel (and in the very skilled the gas pedal) on the flank the brakes.
Flank = brakes is exactly what a buddy does. He has a dog that loves to chase deer. Flank is the only thing that gets his attention when he takes off.

That is EXACTLY the type of scenario I spoke about above. There should never be a need to do that. The dog learned to tolerate and ignore the collar on the neck. No bird dog should be allowed to develop that kind of tolerance. There is simply no need for it. That is the result of trainer error. Sure it works, and will control and deter the dog...for now... but it should not have been allowed to get that far out of whack.

RayG

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Re: E Collar placement

Post by kninebirddog » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:43 am

Via the huntsmith Method
first you begin on the post to as described before Teach a point of contact that means to be still
this area then is transitioned to the e collar which again after repetition becomes habit means when cued to the dog to be still.

It is great when specially for those dogs that have hyper drive on birds so you can allow them to commit to their mistake and then cue them to the desired behavior of stop and be still when there is a bird with out taking the desire for that bird out of them...I like to view it as the brakes also first working flushing birds (not pointed at the beginning) when the dog commences chase the then apply the brakes gently and bring the dog to a gentle stop like coming up to a stop sign it isn't about zapping them it is about cuing them ...when the dog begins to stop on their own every time when a bird is randomly flushed ..then you begin to add the scent of the bird to the factor and if they do not stop flush the bird and apply brakes and bring to a stop. Because at this point you have already established a pattern that a bird in the air means to stop now you are working then when they scent the bird it means the same as the bird in the air stop and be still. ( this is just a condensed run down of the huntsmith way of approaching the collar around the flank) after the dog has a new habit ( habit is what happens after you have done LOTS of repetition :wink: ) Then the collar gets moved up to the neck and the transition should be just about seamless as when you do the command lead work you are already teaching the dog cues around the neck
When I use the E collar or the command lead I use the same cues as it a tap/tug for movement commands and a constant till stop for the be still commands
when I lay my hands on a dog I also start as a pup that means to be still ..be still to be brushed check out for stacking extra
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Re: E Collar placement

Post by displaced_texan » Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:16 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
displaced_texan wrote:
Neil wrote:What Ray said, plus the dog is less likely to go down in the back with the collar on the flank.

Simply put the collar on the neck is the steering wheel (and in the very skilled the gas pedal) on the flank the brakes.
Flank = brakes is exactly what a buddy does. He has a dog that loves to chase deer. Flank is the only thing that gets his attention when he takes off.

That is EXACTLY the type of scenario I spoke about above. There should never be a need to do that. The dog learned to tolerate and ignore the collar on the neck. No bird dog should be allowed to develop that kind of tolerance. There is simply no need for it. That is the result of trainer error. Sure it works, and will control and deter the dog...for now... but it should not have been allowed to get that far out of whack.

RayG
The neck collar works great at low stimulation in every other circumstance.
I have English Pointers because they don't ever grow up either...

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