Training with manual bird launcher, pup points only human

[Nozzer]

I've ran into a bit of a dilemma with my one year old Brittany and his pointing. I've been training him on point with a manual bird launcher and coturnix quail. So to train him to point I've had my wife pull the cord and launch the quail whenever my pup got within 10 feet of the bird launcher. It worked to great effect and he would slam on point from 20-30 feet out consistently. In doing this my wife has always had to stand within 3 feet of the bird launcher to pull the cord in and make sure the bird flushes on a moments notice. Recently though I've been trying to get pup to point without someone stood next to the launcher and he's not slamming on point at all and simply finding the bird launcher. Keep in mind where I live it's had no precipitation or humidity and 85° + weather for the past 3 months so scenting conditions have been very poor. I'm concerned that while pup can scent well enough and point he's only inclined to when a human is in sight and he's sight pointing the human. Where did I go wrong? Do I need a remote launcher and an endless supply of pigeons to fix this? Is it fixable? Thanks for any help you can provide!

[Munster]

You made a visual crutch. Yes it is fixable. Yes, you will need birds. No, you dont NEED to buy a remote trap, but one would really help right now
But you also need someone close that can help guide you along.

[Nozzer]

You made a visual crutch. Yes it is fixable. Yes, you will need birds. No, you dont NEED to buy a remote trap, but one would really help right now
But you also need someone close that can help guide you along.

Do you think repeatedly drilling flushing birds with a remote launcher and no human in the vicinity except me behind him will resolve this?

[Del Lolo]

Many times, dogs will actually learn to point the scent (or sight) of the box and therefore will point an empty box.
Ditch the box and use carded or wing-clip birds.

.

[gundogguy]

Planting pigeon without release box. You may also card these birds as a way to limit flight.
See link to video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyxLICOw ... e=youtu.be

[DonF]

My first though is you need remotes. But with a helper you need to set up your dog better. I would work your dog in cross wind to the trap and get the wife out of there. Once it hit's scent, stop the dog. Get it settled down and then have the wife go flush for you, lose the string. If you really want the wife in there to pull a string, set it up so that she well away from the trap with the string and that your dog come's into the bird and actually finds the bird rather than your wife. Now what it sounds like is happening is that the dog point's only because your wife is standing there, it's not looking for scent with it's nose, it's looking for your wife with it's eye's and has it figured out how close it can get to the wife without moving the bird. You go to remote traps you can do what your wanting to do without the wife there. Then you control the bird. But also try to set your dog up to hit scent relatively close 20 to maybe 40 feet. Try to keep him from hitting scent 30+ yds out. Your dog hit's a wild bird that far out the bird will probably just walk away. So however you do it, keep in mind that you need to set up the situation for the dog to learn from.

When I start out a dog I mark the bird with a piece of yarn on a straighten out hanger. Doesn't take long at all for the dog to figure out just look for the hanger. Simple fix. Move the marker 30 or so yards away from the bird where the dog goes to the hanger it will miss the bird. The marker simply let's me keep close track of where the trap is. When they first get to the marker after going to it and finding birds it's sometime's pretty comical. Lot of dog go to the marker, do an unsure point with no scent and then start glancing both ways very carefully. They know there's always a bird there but this time there isn't. Your wife took the place of the marker. You want to be sure, have your wife go out in the field and stand there with no bird. bet your dog goes right to her!

[gonehuntin']

Put a longer string on the launcher, there is no reason to have another person standing there. If you want, have your wife walk with you and when the dog points, you keep hold of the cc and let her walk in for the flush. Always bring the dog in cross wind to the birds. Always have your trap in cover and have it where birds would be. Try to make each set up look natural and not like a set up.

[Tooling]

Although he had been on gobs of birds as a youngster my dog would point humps on the ground etc because he had gotten used to tip-ups or releases buried in cover. I just started mixing it up so he wouldn't know what to expect...sometimes even going as far as making an empty "hump"... at first if he flashed it I would indulge him but progressively just began ignoring his point as I noticed his tail would not be 12:00 if it wasn't honest or if he was uncertain. He didn't DEPEND on the sight but had become used to it and expecting it and it really helped ME to read my dogs personality afield...ez fix...just put him on a bunch of birds w/out any "container" and the problem will go away. Another thing I did was to take a dead bird and THROW it into cover so you don't leave your scent.. w/pup up..once released and as pup comes around pop off a blank while facing the direction you threw the bird...eventually he will look at you at the sound of the report and then run up ahead of you the direction your facing and start a search...once he finds the bird love him up because now he is using his nose and you have just taught him something...it's likely pup will start pointing this dead bird at first..say NOTHING and watch your dog...this will teach YOU how to read your dog..once he has kind of broken his leery point and goes to the bird...love him up!! The fact that your pup equates your wife or yourself with a bird is a GREAT thing..don't let yourself get frustrated over this..it sounds as if you have done really good in this area and have something to build on...just gotta' wean him off the dependence which should be ez.

Since he is associating you/wife with birds another thing you could do is plant a bird in heavy cover and know EXACTLY where it is at. Once pup is out and before he has picked up scent get his attention and wave him that direction....stay back and be quiet!! ALWAYS make sure there is a bird to be found. Do that a few times and your pup will TOTALLY trust you in the field and keep the bird association w/you going. This might be the FIRST thing you do and once he always trusts your queue, you've got him. Don't do this a lot but it may be a good way to begin that transition into field confidence...you are helping your pup be successful by doing this but don't over do it.

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

Ditch the the launchers altogether for now and use randomly "planted" birds.'the launcher will come in handy later once he is confident in what he's looking for by nose.

[Tooling]

Ditch the the launchers altogether for now and use randomly "planted" birds.'the launcher will come in handy later once he is confident in what he's looking for by nose.

Yep!

I think you just summarized my entire statement...lol

[RayGubernat]

You can put longer cords on a manual trap, but often I found I had to stake it down or add weight to the base of the trap so it does not flip over when I pull the release. As mentioned above, the traps themselves may be contributing to the problem.

If you have pigeons you can tie a long string to a baby sock. Put the sock over the bird's head and dizzy it ..just a bit... as you plant it in cover. As the bird comes into the area of the bird, pull the sock off. The bird will not stay on the ground for very long. and if the dog is anywhere close, it should stop to flush.

Paul Long describe a homemade pigeon manual trap that was basically an open bottomed wire cage with wood runners on it. The sled is pulled by a string and the bird under the wore cage gets "run over" by the sled causing it to fly.

You can also just do stop to flush work for a while to ge tit back between the bird and the dog.

I would mix it up...keep the dog guessing.

RayG

[duckn66]

This has been an interesting read. I was all for getting some manual launchers or remotes but I think I will stick with how I am doing it now. I never thought about the dog getting used to the scent of the launcher or pointing the helper but that makes perfect sense. I've been CCing my pups with planted birds, having my helper walk with me and once the pup goes on point having the helper walk in and flush after a period of time.

[birddog1968]

Put a longer string on the launcher, there is no reason to have another person standing there. If you want, have your wife walk with you and when the dog points, you keep hold of the cc and let her walk in for the flush. Always bring the dog in cross wind to the birds. Always have your trap in cover and have it where birds would be. Try to make each set up look natural and not like a set up.

+1, run the line out far enough someone can pull the trap behind or way off to the side....or your helper goes in as if to flush and trips the trap with their foot.

Traps should not really be a problem, thoughtful use of them can be....that said I tend to get the dogs off the traps as quickly as possible.

[Nozzer]

Thank you everybody for your input, it has been very helpful! I'm learning a lot here as this is my first pointer to train but am glad to know this problem is readily fixable and not as dire as I first thought. Systematically approaching this I can see that he's started to associate the scent of a bird with pointing at the human. I think I've over relied on the bird launcher and at this point my next step is to transition to my pen raised Bobwhite Quail which are much wilder than the Coturnix I've been using so they will flush when bumped. I intend to plant several of them and let pup get used to their flush now and know that he can't catch them. He understands he needs to point on scent it's now a matter of getting him to point at the source of the scent and consistently point without the human as an indicator. If there's anything I should add or change to this plan of action, I'm open to ideas. Once again, you guys have saved me a lot of hassle and your input is much appreciated throughout all this.

[Sharon]

Ditch the the launchers altogether for now and use randomly "planted" birds.'the launcher will come in handy later once he is confident in what he's looking for by nose.

x2