Hesitant to give up retrieve

[UplandJim]

My pup (9 months) is still hesitant on giving up a retrieve. There is no problem with him getting the retrieve and bringing it back but when I reach down to get the dummy/bird he dips his head down, even if I scratch the top of his head with my other hand he still dips his head down. Eventually (10 to 20 seconds) he will give it up but to me it is taking far to long. I was hoping he would just grow out of this but now I'm not so sure.

I can certainly grab it from him quickly but what I'm looking for is a nice presentation for the field trail judges (when the time comes).

[Hattrick]

For FTs what you have is good enough probaly he just has to retrieve it same in AKC HT test. I would heel him around after the retreive letting him hold it while giving him praise then take it. If you want a good clean retreive and presenation FF the dog. I FF all of mine even tho they retrieve everything i shoot from day one.

[UplandJim]

Okay. So I just had him out on a box. Threw him a retrieve and he came back to the box (nothing special here yet). I reached down, he dodged. I reached down again, he dodged again. I was able to be patient with him and try to reach every ten to 20 seconds or so (meanwhile he held onto the dummy) until he willingly gave up the dummy (WIN), then, with a "YES" (aka clicker click) I lavished him with praise.

We repeated this again and with a lavish praise we concluded tonight's session.

I'm trying to instill in him what it is that I want him to do and eventually it will click that the sooner he gives me the dummy the sooner he gets to go out for another retrieve (or hunt another bird).

Understanding the way your dog thinks and patience is key here I believe.

[SpringerDude]

You are doing the right thing to be patient. Also, if the dog is hot, he will be quicker to give up the bumper or bird.

Also, field trial judges are not going to differentiate between a dog that moves its head and one that stays still. Unless they are splitting hairs between two dogs.
However, trying to be clean is always best.

I like to sit on the ground or have the dog get on something that keeps you from bending over the dog when you reach for the bumper.

Sounds like you are on the right track. How old is your pup?

[EvanG]

My pup (9 months) is still hesitant on giving up a retrieve. There is no problem with him getting the retrieve and bringing it back but when I reach down to get the dummy/bird he dips his head down, even if I scratch the top of his head with my other hand he still dips his head down. Eventually (10 to 20 seconds) he will give it up but to me it is taking far to long. I was hoping he would just grow out of this but now I'm not so sure.

I can certainly grab it from him quickly but what I'm looking for is a nice presentation for the field trail judges (when the time comes).

It's also a poor training idea to snatch birds or bumpers from him. What breed of 9 month old is this? If he remains 'sticky' you really should consider embarking on force fetch. Do it thoroughly, step by step. Force fetch constitutes the fully trained retrieve.

EvanG

[CDN_Cocker]

I'm with SpringerDude, patience is key. I think it's a good thing he's holding it. If you start trying to grab it from him, you'll end up with other problems like not coming back with the retrieve or circling. He'll get over it, especially if he knows more retrieves are on the way.

[reba]

"Just gentle grab the loose skin on her flank and pull up, the area where the leg meets the body. No pain, no struggle, they just drop it. I think it might tickle or something. It works"

I took this advise and it really works!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

See my post "Won't give it up"

[Del Lolo]

Is the dog Force Fetched ?

.

[CDN_Cocker]

Is the dog Force Fetched ?

.

Being 9 months old and an ECS I would assume not.

[polmaise]

Understanding the way your dog thinks and patience is key here I believe.

It's your thread!
So are you asking or telling?
Remind me..Where did you inform us that the dog was an ECS? I must have missed that sorry.

[CDN_Cocker]

Remind me..Where did you inform us that the dog was an ECS? I must have missed that sorry.

He has posted pics of it in other threads.

[polmaise]

Thanks Cass, I don't have the time to look at Histories.lol
Well ?...Since it's a Cocker', but it don't really matter the breed (imo)..just change the format not ''the drill'?
...........
Force?...Force Fetch?..I hear you say???. Huh!...start with 'Force Hold'! ?..(in my very humble opinion) ...a cocker?....Hah! You have to ''con them''...Not ''FF'' them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbKjOhNCVPs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oBHwNUfKsA

[polmaise]

Done!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khyCbDccOLU

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Pull down on the loose skin where his rear leg meets his flank.

[UplandJim]

[ ... ]

Also, field trial judges are not going to differentiate between a dog that moves its head and one that stays still. Unless they are splitting hairs between two dogs.
[ ... ] How old is your pup?

This is good to know SpringerDude. He is 9 months.

Thanks to everyone who replied! The problem is not him releasing the dummy/bird but getting him to let me get a hold of it. He sits perfectly still but dodges his head when I reach.

For the record he is a Field-bred English Cocker and I have no intentions of Force Fetching him. My boy will retrieve sticks and rocks if I threw them for him.

Understanding the way your dog thinks and patience is key here I believe.

It's your thread!
So are you asking or telling?

I'm telling!

[UplandJim]

Thanks Cass, I don't have the time to look at Histories.lol
Well ?...Since it's a Cocker', but it don't really matter the breed (imo)..just change the format not ''the drill'?
...........
Force?...Force Fetch?..I hear you say???. Huh!...start with 'Force Hold'! ?..(in my very humble opinion) ...a cocker?....Hah! You have to ''con them''...Not ''FF'' them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbKjOhNCVPs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oBHwNUfKsA

I really really like the black dog in these videos. Raw Cocker power.

[SpringerDude]

Jim,

FF has more to do with obeying commands and teaching picking up items, holding them, and delivering them than it does teaching a dog to fetch.

Here is a training scenario you might try. Have pup sit on a table so that it is easy for your to work with the pup and you are not having to reach down to take items from it.
Hold the item and say fetch. Teach pup to take the item from your hand. Now when you reach for it pup will bounce its head around while you reach for it. hold your hand still and wait for pup to hold its head still for you to take the bumper. When pup gets still, then you can calmly take the bumper, smile and say good boy. No other talking to the pup. You should say fetch, and pup take it. You should say give and wait for pup to be still. When pup is still and you gives you the bumper, then praise.

You can also take pups ear in your left hand, and hold head still if he doesn't catch on fast or is just stubborn. Make him do it right. No talking, just the command, grab ear with hand and hold head still, receive bumper. Then praise. You can help develop the delivery this way. Break down the different components for the retrieve and work on the small things. I look at it more as a Force Hold. I do give some pressure on the ear to teach the dog that I am in control and pup has to listen to me. Doesn't have to be harsh but enough will go along way.

happy training!

[Del Lolo]

Pull down on the loose skin where his rear leg meets his flank.

Actually, pull UP, while simultaneously giving your "DROP" command.

[CDN_Cocker]

For the record he is a Field-bred English Cocker and I have no intentions of Force Fetching him. My boy will retrieve sticks and rocks if I threw them for him.

As does my dog, he's a retrieving machine. After all, they're bred for it. Will I force fetch him? Yup, sure will. I also didn't plan on it until I saw some dogs that had been FF'ed work. It is a thing of pure art. My guy is great, goes out with speed, comes back with speed... great. But I think force fetch lays the foundation for so much more than just retrieving. You really shouldn't rule it out. What polmaise shows in his videos is the beginning of FF. Teaching the hold without pressure.

[Del Lolo]

[quote="UplandJim"]
The problem is not him releasing the dummy/bird but getting him to let me get a hold of it. He sits perfectly still but dodges his head when I reach.

For the record he is a Field-bred English Cocker and I have no intentions of Force Fetching him. My boy will retrieve sticks and rocks if I threw them for him.
[quote="UplandJim"]

FF is about MUCH more than a "natural retrieve" or good mouth habits.
"Dodging his head" is but one example.

.

[EvanG]

For the record he is a Field-bred English Cocker and I have no intentions of Force Fetching him. My boy will retrieve sticks and rocks if I threw them for him.

Not the point. You'd do yourself and the dog a great deal of good to learn what FF really is, and what it's really about. Good luck, though.

EvanG

[UplandJim]

For the record he is a Field-bred English Cocker and I have no intentions of Force Fetching him. My boy will retrieve sticks and rocks if I threw them for him.

Not the point. You'd do yourself and the dog a great deal of good to learn what FF really is, and what it's really about. Good luck, though.

EvanG

Does it go beyond this?

What is the "Force Retrieve"?

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

For the record he is a Field-bred English Cocker and I have no intentions of Force Fetching him. My boy will retrieve sticks and rocks if I threw them for him.

Not the point. You'd do yourself and the dog a great deal of good to learn what FF really is, and what it's really about. Good luck, though.

EvanG

Does it go beyond this?

What is the "Force Retrieve"?

I'm not trying to speak for Evan here, but yes it does.
The ff done properly will result in a bold and confident dog. One that will retrieve and deliver to hand when commanded.

Nate

[brewer]

Pull down on the loose skin where his rear leg meets his flank.

This works for me.

[gonehuntin']

Your very first step is to stop the dog from turning his head. You won't get a clean release and delivery unless the dog looks at YOU and not away.

[crackerd]

Your very first step is to stop the dog from turning his head. You won't get a clean release and delivery unless the dog looks at YOU and not away.

GH, that's a spaniel avoidance thing, upland should be glad you pointed it out. All the patience in the world ain't "curing" it. And you ain't allowed to touch the dog, either, in any AKC events, so why do something like a flank pinch or pull in training? The retrieving demands - and competitive requirements - for spaniels are so minimal, most of the time the handler seems happy if the dog almost drops the bird off in passing.

They could really, really use a routine, like side-sit heel as with retrievers, or even a front finish as you suggest with the dog looking up at the handler after sitting to deliver the bird.

And teaching a "Drop" command from the conditioned hold would be good for starters.

MG

[Del Lolo]

why do something like a flank pinch or pull in training?

MG

Because what is learned will carry over into the field as well as HT or FT.

.

[gonehuntin']

why do something like a flank pinch or pull in training?

MG

Because what is learned will carry over into the field as well as HT or FT.

.

But as MG pointed, that avoids the problem, it doesn't cure it. Take too many shortcuts and the whole home will crumble in a good windstorm. It always eludes me why people choose to circumvent problems their entire lives rather than meeting them head on and fixing them.

[crackerd]

why do something like a flank pinch or pull in training?

Because what is learned will carry over into the field as well as HT or FT.

Because "what is learned" by who - the handler? the dog? - "will carry over"to hunt tests and field trials, how exactly? I repeat: you cannot touch a dog in an AKC spaniel or retriever test or trial without getting disqualified for intimidation. Let's give you this picture to help dissuade upland from getting physical with his dog - unless he's vertically challenged in a big way, what do you think he's going to look like reaching down or dropping to his knees to tug on the flank of a 15-16 inch cocker? Pretty, ain't it?

Train the dog, don't band-aid over the problems you've got. Wish you all the patience in the world with your training but if you think being patient waiting for the dog to give up the bird's going to work, it's only going to haunt you in counting off more minutes until the dog tires of toying with you. If force fetch isn't an option, you need to have something better that is. And that's hard to conjure up when a dog refuses to relinquish possession of a bird or bunny.

MG

[808allday]

IMO you've gone about it in the right way, just keep working and be patient and you'll be fine, no need to FF

[EvanG]

I'm not trying to speak for Evan here, but yes it does.
The ff done properly will result in a bold and confident dog. One that will retrieve and deliver to hand when commanded.

Nate

You're right about that Nate. And a stable dog, even when there are distractions.

EvanG

[DonF]

How did I miss this. I love it when someone come's by with a pup that does that stuff. First of all, it's a pup, it should have on a check cord. There is no way it can dance around you then unless you let it. Next, let it hold the bird a bit, it got it let it enjoy it a bit. Lastly don't pinch the flank, rather after the pup is settled a bit, get it into you. Be down on your right knee with your left knee up. Pull the pup into that pocket and get a hold of it's collar with your left hand, under the chin, rub with your finger's. The right hand goes over the back to the side away from you and stroke's the pup from the shoulder to it's hind leg. keep the pup pulled in all the time. Four of five stroke
s and then the stroke down the side but low enough to hook the flank with two finger's. At the end of that stroke immediately hook the flank and life gently. What's gonna happen with the vast majority of dog's is that the dog will want to move that hand away. To do that, it's has to spit out whatever is in it's mouth. At the same moment you lift, give your release command and take your hand other off the collar and get a hold of the object in the dog's mouth. You should have the object right away and them you straighten out you finger's and drop the flank. Don't fight with the pup, teach the pup.