To breed or not to breed??

[tinyriverrat]

I have a beautiful Chocolate Lab that is 4.5 months old. I am wondering if any could give me insight on breeding her. I do not want to become a breeder. I just want to know what everyone thinks. I want her to be my hunting partner, bottom line. My sister in law is a Vet with the Bob Barker complex( fix em all ) and says I NEED to get her spayed. Before I do I wanted to make sure that's what is best for her, as a hunting dog. Do Lab's tend to make better hunting companions after a litter or not spayed at all? Is there any difference? Is there a rule of thumb?

[Elkhunter]

You are years away from determining if you should breed your dog, put a season or two on em and maybe some testing and then decide at that point if he/she is worth breeding!

[Georgia Boy]

Don't spay until the dog is mature, at least 18 months. DO some research on the subject and you will see early spay/neuter causes many problems.. Having a litter will have no affect on your dogs hunting ability.

[RoostersMom]

All of my females are spayed. If you spay your dog - wait until she has physically matured. Mine are very nice dogs, but I could buy a better dog than I could breed from them - so I choose not to breed. I use that yardstick for measuring whether I'd breed or not - can I buy a better dog? Are you improving the breed? What specific characteristics does your dog have that will improve the breed? How have you proven your dog? Which outside measurements are you using to compare your dog to others of the same breed (hunt tests, field trials, etc.)?

Labs are among the top two breeds in animal shelters in the U.S. They are overbred and can have serious health issues (eyes and hips come to mind).

If I were to breed my bird dog, they would have a title and be health tested. I would also have a waiting list before the breeding with deposits. Everybody has a GREAT dog - just ask them! Way too many are bred that haven't proven themselves in any hunting venue. It's fine to have a GREAT dog (I've got several) - but having the dog evaluated through hunt tests or field trials by someone who has their hands on hundreds of dogs per year is a good way to decide whether or not to breed your pup.

A "breeder" is someone who breeds a dog - so by default, if you breed a dog, you can be considered a breeder.

[CDN_Cocker]

A vet will always tell you to spay. Let her have 2 or 3 seasons and if you really think you want to breed then go for it. If not have her fixed. I planned on breeding my dachshund and now after 2 seasons I've decided it's not the right choice for me. So she's getting spayed next week. But she is mature and I do not regret waiting. You should always wait till they are done growing. Dogs in heat suck though. Mine bleeds everywhere so I'm excited to spay now. My cocker however will stay intact as he's male and easier to deal with. I'd only fix him if it was for a medical reason. At 4 months they are all nice. .. You have no idea what your dog will mature into

[kninebirddog]

If you do plan on breeding outside of the health checks and the proving the female is wothy of breeding to as in does she have the desired traits to be passed on one very important question to ask yourself is this....what will you do with puppies you do not sell?

[Hattrick]

Good advice so far. If performance is important to you than spaying will defenitly will slower her down. You will still have a good hunting dog just not the motor you had before. Its harder to keep weight off and they loose muscle defenition.

[ezzy333]

Good advice so far. If performance is important to you than spaying will defenitly will slower her down. You will still have a good hunting dog just not the motor you had before. Its harder to keep weight off and they loose muscle defenition.

Think you are going to have a very difficult time proving and of that.

Ezzy

[jimbo&rooster]

At 4.5 months old I wouldn't even be thinking about spaying a dog. However, one thing you need to think about on down the road is, why breed her? there are a TON of labs out there, some are quality some are not..... what do you stand to gain by breeding her? If all you plan to do is hunt her and have a companion, I say let her get to be 18-24 mos old and spay her, when you are ready fro another lab just go out and buy one.

As far as losing muscle tone and having a hard time keeping weight off, if you let them grow and develop physically then you shouldn't have any issue with muscle tone, and if you make an effort to keep an eye on your dogs intake and exorcise there should be no issue with weight. the only thing I see with this is if you spay or neuter early you get long lanky and lean.

Jim

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

Do some research, and wait awhile before making any decisions on spaying or breeding. Whatever you do, don't allow her get bred in the meantime. That would invoke your sister in law to say, "I told you so." You definitely don't want that!

Nate

[RayGubernat]

Good advice so far. If performance is important to you than spaying will defenitly will slower her down. You will still have a good hunting dog just not the motor you had before. Its harder to keep weight off and they loose muscle defenition.

Think you are going to have a very difficult time proving and of that.

Ezzy

You are right about not being able to prove the weight gain thing. But that's because the vet industry does not want to hear it. You will never see a study to determine if there is weight gain after spaying done at a veterinary school. Not wth the current emphasis on spying everything as soon as it is whelped(which IS ididotic BTW). Dogfood companies ain't gonna do one either. No reason to. Spaying puppies without a medical necessity is animal cruelty in my view.

Dogs DO tend to pick up weight after spaying. All mine that were spayed had a tendency to put weight on, relative to their unsprayed kennelmates who were fed and exercised absolutely alike.

I can't answer the part about slowing down after spaying for labs, but, I have NOT seen where my pointers lost a step after spaying. One of them completed her FC with 2 wins in OAA competition in shorthair trials AFTERr spaying, so I was not the only one who didn't notice her slowing down.

To the OP, whatever you decide, I firmly agree that you should let the dog grow up and become an adult before you do anything.

If you decide to spay, I will say that you do not have to worry about the dripping and bleeding and keeping her from males in the field twice a year. I spay females I am not going to breed, for just those reasons and yes it makes no difference to their hunting.

RayG

[mountaindogs]

Regarding the weight gain issue: this is simple metabolism. A dog that does not have to be physically preparing for reproduction either male or female uses less calories and the body does not do as much internally. When you spay or juster your dog you should automatically cut calorie intake as they don't need as much to maintain anymore. Very few people do and they see a weight gain. The dog will not "slow down " or lose muscle unless you cut their activity or let them get fat. Certainly if you spay young before the dog is done growing they will never developed as much muscle to begin with.
I used to see males in the clinic who were shelter adopted as puppies. The shelters usually spay /nueter before the dogs go home regardless of age and many are done at 3 and 4 months. The males look adolescent their while lives and a 5 yr old had a penis the size of that 3 to 4 month old puppy. Not that that particular detail was a problem except for dogs prone to stones but perhaps indicative of the overall immaturity maintained.

[rinker]

This is usually presented as an 'either/or' situation. 'Either' spay them 'or' breed them. There is another option, Don't spay them and don't breed them. I would suggest putting the decision off for a year or so. By then you will have been through a heat cycle or two and you can decide how big of a pain it is or isn't. You should also have some indication by then of wether or not she is going to be a much better than average hunting dog that may have something to contribute to the breed.

[Hattrick]

Ezzy i dont have to prove anything its a fact. My female unfortunatly had to be spayed now shes not nearly the power house of a performer she once was still is at heart and mind. I run her 2 -3 times a wk with the younger dogs 30-40 minute off ATV she does it but struggles. Looks fat no matter what we do, shes still a heck of hunting dog just not going win FTs like she once could of or run to the front as she always did till being spayed. I only feed a third of what i do the rest. Say what you want after spay they get wide across the back i guess theres always exseption but this is more the norm from what ive seen. Most people are blind of there own dogs performance i try not to be. It defently affected her. If im going to do performance venees im not spaying my dog.

[SpringerDude]

I think you are doing the right thing in trying to educate yourself to understand the Spay - not Spay debate.

Even though your pup is 4.5 mths old, now is the time to start learning about the breeding process and not when the pup starts a heat cycle and you decide that you want to breed her and need to find a stud dog.
Basic protocol is to not breed until the pup is at least 2 yrs of age. The reason for the age requirement is to make sure she is mature and OFA is not official unless xrays are performed after the age of 24 mths. Health checks at a minimum should be OFA xrays on Hips and Eye's CERF'd. There are other things that can be tested for with genetic tests.

Another thing you will want to do is study your dogs pedigree and then try to find a Stud dog that would complement or improve the genetic's that you have.

I would recommend you get involved in an AKC Retriever Club or HRC Club in your area. If you need help finding one, shoot me a PM and I will see what I can find for you. Even if you do not want to play the game, if you train with these folks, you should have a better chance of having a better trained dog than if you go at it alone. However, listen and learn and decide who you want to take advise from.

By training with others and running your dog in front of folks, it would be easier to get a referral from them should you have puppies. You might also find a very nice male to breed to that folks like which might also help place puppies should you breed. Don't expect folks to run to you to purchase a pup just because you breed to a top Stud that charges lots of $$'s for the stud fee. Most knowledgeable buyers will want to see what your female brings to the breeding. Do your homework and look at a lot of Lab kennels and see what they are advertising with their breedings. Purchase agreements, etc. Also, as someone else mentioned, what is your back up plan should some pups not sell? You have about 2 yrs to learn and research. Enjoy the journey. Even if you don't breed, you will be better educated when you purchase the next pup.

To answer your original post: Do not spay until closer to 2 yrs of age. Even if you do not want to breed, spaying is not required as long as you have the correct facilities to keep her out of trouble and males from getting into trouble.

[tinyriverrat]

Thanks everyone This is a big help. I thought getting her spayed now was too early but who am I to question the Vet.... Oh yeah I'm the owner haha! I do have the ability to keep her away from males during her heat cycle, she stays in my "man cave". Thanks for all the advice and insight. This won't be my last question I'm sure. Ill keep ya'll posted. THANKS AGAIN

[Hattrick]

Good luck

[EvanG]

I have a beautiful Chocolate Lab that is 4.5 months old. I am wondering if any could give me insight on breeding her.... Is there a rule of thumb?

Yes there is; one that doesn't get enough attention. What's the point? In an age of over breeding of many breeds, especially Labradors, what do you hope to add to the breed by doing so? Is her pedigree and health certification really that stellar? Has she accomplished note worthy fieldwork that indicates that the breed will somehow be advanced by breeding her?

Sounds pretty harsh, doesn't it? But someone has to be honest about this. The pounds are overflowing across the country with ultimately unwanted dogs - bought cheaply and in haste, and with no such forethought behind their ancestry. We just seem not to know when to put the brakes on runaway breeding in this country.

I'm sure she's a nice dog. But how does she really stack up to the criteria listed?

EvanG

[polmaise]

My rule of thumb is!
If you are not prepared to keep all the litter until they are what you would want yourself ,then don't breed .
http://www.polmaisegundogs.co.uk/breeding.html

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

My rule of thumb is!
If you are not prepared to keep all the litter until they are what you would want yourself ,then don't breed .
http://www.polmaisegundogs.co.uk/breeding.html

That actually sounds like pretty good policy. Probably happens pretty rarely though, and is not realistic for most breeders.

Nate

[polmaise]

Probably not Nate!?, I don't know?.
But if it sounds pretty good, It probably warrants a second thought?..and if it is rare' ,It doesn't/shouldn't be (imo)
Realistic,to some breeders may also be unrealistic to ''Breeders''?...However , I don't breed per se for the sale of pups .
For those that breed for the sake of ''I just want a pup for myself''?> where do the rest go?

[shags]

@ Hattrick - have your dog's thyroid checked. Spaying shouldn't have those effects on a dog, but low thyroid could. Even if she's low normal, ask your vet for a two month trial of meds. You can wean her off with no ill effects if they don't make a difference.

[polmaise]

Good advice so far. If performance is important to you than spaying will defenitly will slower her down. You will still have a good hunting dog just not the motor you had before. Its harder to keep weight off and they loose muscle defenition.

Nope! ..not in my experience!?..But then I don't know about your vet? or your dog.

[Hattrick]

Thanks for ur concerns. But if it is low thyroid its probaly from the spay. I didnt say she couldnt perform just not to the level of what she was. Its like this farmers spay there bull calfs for 2 reasons it calms them and its easier to put weight on them for market and same with hogs. This makes thevmeat, ore tender becouse it has more fat. Fat dont equal lean performance muscle. You can put 10 steers (spayed bulls) and a intact bull of the same age in a meadow and the bull looks completely different hes muscled and jaked up and you dont want to mess with him Why becouse hes got his balls. He has more fire than the rest period. Its no different in dogs or any other animal. The best dogs can loose a step and still be good just not as good as they were after spay. Im not just judging my dog but many others and a life of farming with cattle. We cut nuts for a reason.

[ezzy333]

Thanks for ur concerns. But if it is low thyroid its probaly from the spay. I didnt say she couldnt perform just not to the level of what she was. Its like this farmers spay there bull calfs for 2 reasons it calms them and its easier to put weight on them for market and same with hogs. This makes thevmeat, ore tender becouse it has more fat. Fat dont equal lean performance muscle. You can put 10 steers (spayed bulls) and a intact bull of the same age in a meadow and the bull looks completely different hes muscled and jaked up and you dont want to mess with him Why becouse hes got his balls. He has more fire than the rest period. Its no different in dogs or any other animal. The best dogs can loose a step and still be good just not as good as they were after spay. Im not just judging my dog but many others and a life of farming with cattle. We cut nuts for a reason.

First, but it has nothing to do with the discussion, but spay is a procedure for removing the uterus and ovaries of a female. Castration or maculation are procedures for neutering the males.
Even though some of what you are saying is true, you are over the edge on much also. Your whole scenario is relating to neutering a male bovine at a very immature age and we already know what that does to cows, pigs, lambs, chickens, as well as dogs. In most animals it promotes greater growth and strength. That is why oxen used for drafting over the past few centuries were always neutered quite young. Our draft horses were normally neutered while still immature but older than many of the others. The bulls that haven't been neutered young will gain weight quite fast but it will be a higher % muscle than a steer. They also cam be harder to manage as they mature. Steers will gain faster than heifers but will have a calmer disposition normally. Even in horses the Budweiser teams are all geldings and I hear many trialer swear that they would use nothing but a gelding in a trial situation.

Getting back to mature neutering, there is a whole different scenario, and I think it has been pretty well explained when people see little difference except for the fact most will take a little less feed to keep them in shape.

Ezzy

[pointer]

If you do not intend on becoming a breeder, I would spay the dog. There really is no reason to not do it. It will make for less issues around the home and there is simply no reason to breed a dog just so that it has been bred. Everyone looks at breeding as being a simple process that provides wonderful little bundles of fun and joy. In most cases that is how it goes. In my experience, single breeding by owners who have not major network or avenue to move the pups, normally ends up with simply trying to give away the pups or being stuck with a few.

I will also give you a little story of a different side of breeding. The female is careful chosen and matched to a very compatible male through a very extensive evaluation process. The dam comes into heat, is bred, and for the next two months she is watch, pampered, and taken to the vet for an xray to verify the number of pups. 63 days later the pups don't arrive so she is taken to the vet to be checked and for another xray to verify how many pups she is having and their positioning in the uterus. The pups are verified and seem to be in good position with the exception of two pups being in a breach position. Shortly after returning from the vets, the birthing starts. The first pup is delivered breach and stillborn and despite all the efforts to revive the pup the pup does not make it. Additional pups come and are fine but after a few hours, we still don't have the desired number on the ground. After staying up all night, the female is taken back to the vets the next morning. Several shots are administered to induce labor and after not producing any more pups an additional xray verifies that there are no more and the original reading of the xray was off by two pups. Mom and pups go home and mom is placed on antibiotics to reduce the chance of infection. Over the course of the next two days, the puppies die and mom seems to be getting weak. Back to the vets and emergency surgery determines that her uterus had ruptured and the infection had likely poisoned the pups. Two days later mom dies due to the extensive infection inside despite all the efforts of my vet. $2000+ dollars later, I have no pups and a three year old dam that is dead. This is the reality of being a breeder and a risk that every individual takes when they decide to breed their dog. After many years of breeding, this is my worse experience and the only time that I have lost a dog due to having pups. I simply bring it up as a reminder that breeding can be a wonderful experience, but also a heartbreaker. If your not willing to accept this type of risk with your dog, I would suggest that you not breed.

[SCT]

Excellent post pointer!

[Hattrick]

Agreeded. My first litter costed me $7,800 in vet fees not counting the puppie formula $$ plus feeding 10 puppies by hand every 2hrs around the clock for 3wks. Thank god i had the time to be there. We didnt loose 1 single pup!! Its great when things go right but when it goes bad its bad.

[ezzy333]

You bring up some valid points but if we have to make a decision on a worst case scenario then no one would ever breed. I have bred dogs for many years and have had one dog have minor problems and another we had to do a cesarean but in both cases they were handled with out much problem. Only one out of ? litters ever had a vet involved is far from the cases yu have presented.

Ezzy

[mountaindogs]

You bring up some valid points but if we have to make a decision on a worst case scenario then no one would ever breed. I have bred dogs for many years and have had one dog have minor problems and another we had to do a cesarean but in both cases they were handled with out much problem. Only one out of ? litters ever had a vet involved is far from the cases yu have presented.

Ezzy

True, but a good breeder is prepared for the worst. Both time and money need to be available though perhaps not easily available, still able to be dealt with if needed. No one should go unprepared. I have had 4 litters over my whole life. 3 have been fine and one was very $$ and scary but thanks to a brilliant vet turned out okay albiet a huge bite in the bank account.

[pointer]

You bring up some valid points but if we have to make a decision on a worst case scenario then no one would ever breed. I have bred dogs for many years and have had one dog have minor problems and another we had to do a cesarean but in both cases they were handled with out much problem. Only one out of ? litters ever had a vet involved is far from the cases yu have presented.

Ezzy

I don't disagree with your statement either. The intent of my point was that in most cases things are all easy and there are no issues, but most people never think or mention the potential risk. They are not necessary a high percentage issue but any time there is a chance, you need to be prepared to deal with the worse. Most first time or hobby breeders are not in a position to easily deal with the amount of money that I or Hattrick shelled out to potentially save the mom and pups or as with my one case to shell out a bunch of money and still deal with the loss of the pups and mom.

Hattrick's issue was with their very first breeding. This simply goes to show that whether it is you first breeding or your hundredth breeding, it can happen at any time. I was simply trying to make the OP aware that breeding can be wonderful but can also bring with it a lot of problems and expenditure. That way, they are aware of all the possible scenario's and whether they wish to assume the risks regardless of how big or small that they might be.