Place boards

[CDN_Cocker]

Just wondering how many folks use place boards and how you use em personally. Just made 2 today to start the cocker on, one higher up to start and then a smaller one on 2x4s which I will progress to once he is solid on the higher one.

[DonF]

I have never understood place boards and never tried them. To me they are one more thing to fool with. Rule of KISS always works!

[Trekmoor]

What is a place board ?

Bill T.

[cornishman]

Can i ask why place boards for cockers. Bri

[crackerd]

Bri, it's an old (emphasis on old as outmoded) retriever training method for steadiness. Wouldn't think you lot have any great need for how to teach that . But here you go, anyhow: http://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/retrie ... part3.html

We (in N. America) often run our retrievers from a mat in field trials, so many still use a variant of a "place board" in training but only as the "place" from where the dog is sent for retrieves. Other retriever trainers use it when training alone and throwing marks at great distances for their own dogs - they leave the dog on the mat and go out 350-400 yards, throw a bird or dummy, release the dog for the retrieve, then the dog picks the bird or dummy and returns those 350-400 yards to the mat and "remotely" relinquishes the bird or dummy awaiting the next throw. And back it goes to the mat after retrieving that one and the next one and on and on. Another variation with or without a mat can be found here http://www.retrieversonline.com/standalone.htm under "One Place Standalones or Send-Backs."

In answer to your question as for spaniels, I never saw the benefit of a mat or "place boards" when I could get steadiness and sharper handling easier without it, especially in training alone.

MG

[cornishman]

Thanks MG

[Trekmoor]

Seems a lot of unneccessary trouble to go to just to train a dog ! :roll: I cannot see how it would benefit a spaniel at all ?

Bill T.

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

I train all of my dogs, whether they are pointers or retrievers a "place" command....I just use a piece of astro turf though because I want to be able to take it with me until they become consistent. It comes in handy for many situations.

[LeonStagg]

I do the same thing as BVV.
I started out in the yard sort of impromptu with the welcome mat for the back door. I just carried it around to different spots in the yard and called it "place" My current pup took to it quickly and as he grew, I switched to a little bit larger piece of carpet.

He was curious about anything I picked up or carried around, so it was a natural progression to have him take possession of it, once I set it on the ground. He already had a good background and understanding of sit/stay, so it was easy. As soon as he came to it and started checking it out, I commanded him to sit. I just added the verbal command "place" and in a few days he had it down.

It gives us a base to work from in the field if desired, especially if there are distractions.

[Neil]

I use a barrel with all dogs, pointing, flushing, retrieving, and with a few the place board is needed for the transition. Just another tool.

[cornishman]

Im with Bill on this one , how will a place board be benifical when training spaniels . Bri

[Trekmoor]

I use a barrel with all dogs, pointing, flushing, retrieving, and with a few the place board is needed for the transition. Just another tool.

I don't want this to sound as if I'm slagging off other peoples methods but I train spaniels, pointers and retrievers and never use a barrel either. I usually go out training with 2 or 3 dummies, a whistle, something to make a bang with and a lead. I think most trainers here are much the same as me in their equipment requirements.
Our respective ways of training must reflect the different demands we make of our dogs ?

Bill T.

[Neil]

I use a barrel with all dogs, pointing, flushing, retrieving, and with a few the place board is needed for the transition. Just another tool.

I don't want this to sound as if I'm slagging off other peoples methods but I train spaniels, pointers and retrievers and never use a barrel either. I usually go out training with 2 or 3 dummies, a whistle, something to make a bang with and a lead. I think most trainers here are much the same as me in their equipment requirements.
Our respective ways of training must reflect the different demands we make of our dogs ?

Bill T.

Were I to only train to hunting dog standards I would need fewer tools and it would take a lot less time, as you suggested. But all my dogs are fully finished, steady to wing, shot, and fall, and honor, retrieve. Even those that are never trialed.

There is never one right way to train a dog.

[wems2371]

I started using one last year, when I broke my shorthair. I started with a half pallet that I put some scrap sheeting on, and went later to a more portable piece of plyboard sheeting. When I was gone for the weekend training at a friends house, and forgot the board, I used the entry mat to my camper. I used it for bird steadiness and for retrieving drills. I don't have a lot of training years under my belt, but I really liked the placeboard and will use it again with the next pup.

[CDN_Cocker]

Place boards seem to be the rage right now with top spaniel trialers. I know both McGagh and Karlovec use them.

[DonF]

I'm with Bill too, don't get this. If your using it to train retrieving, you have the dog placed before the retrieve. It's on point and doesn't leave until you send it. Or as most trainer's do, the dog is never sent until the handler is next to it and release's it by voice, touch or both. it sound's to me and always has like a Rube Goldberg tool! But I would also encourage everyone using one that it works for to keep doing it. if it consistent, most all training methods eventually work, don't quit using a method proven by you. Much similar to the e-collar on the waist to teach whoa. I haven't a clue why it's done. The original whoa post works so well for me and has for a lot of years, why would I change?

A new post was added while I was pecking away. What would a spaniel trainer use a place board for?

[Coveyrise64]

Never use one, never found a need. My take is it's a gimmick and by incorporating it in the training all you've done is add another transition period when removing it from the sequence.

Were I to only train to hunting dog standards I would need fewer tools and it would take a lot less time, as you suggested. But all my dogs are fully finished, steady to wing, shot, and fall, and honor, retrieve. Even those that are never trialed.

There is never one right way to train a dog.

All of mine are trained to the same standard and probably a little beyond to meet the standards of several venues. They are also my hunting dogs. I don't use a check cord, whoa post, buddy stick, or a place board. Don't see the need.

So I guess you're right, there is never one right way to train a dog.....

cr

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

I like using place boards. I use them to establish a safe zone with both pointing and flushing/retrievers. Once a pup has been base loaded in clicker training you can lure them onto a board and praise them for stand or sit. This behavior can be established at a very young age.

The board is also quite useful in retriever training, and as an aid in line steadiness and honoring. Once the dog understands that it needs to stay on the board or in that particular place until instructed to do otherwise; the board can be removed. As described the board is just another tool. There is nothing wrong with using tools to make training easier and with more clarity for both you and the dog.

Nate

[Stoneface]

I have never understood place boards and never tried them. To me they are one more thing to fool with. Rule of KISS always works!

Couldn't agree with you more, Don. I've never trained a flushing dog and haven't done too much with retrievers, but I just never got the point in training a pointing dog with a marker or place board. If it works for you and you get results, no one can buck you one it, but for me it would be more of a novelty.

[CDN_Cocker]

I've only done 2 sessions and am not close to introducing dummies to it yet just working on sit/stay (something he will need to be able to do duck hunting later on) and getting to to stay put for increasingly longer periods of time calmly. He's young still and he is just getting used to it so the times are short. I never let him jump off by himself - if it's time to get off I pick him up and place him on the ground so he knows that when he is on there he is supposed to stay there. What I have noticed on the 2 sessions I have done is it is excellent for teaching/enforcing a hup/stay. He has to physically step off (or in his case right now on the taller one jump off) so he knows exactly what he has done wrong when I run back and put him on the board again. Being a cocker he likes to do the classic cocker creep, with the place board he is unable to do so unless he jumps right off.

[mountaindogs]

I have started using them in much of my training but they are helpful only, certainly not needed. They are mostly a puppy tool... so you can introduce STILL to otherwise very GO dogs without harshness or physical restraint. For retrievers they are also used for handling skills by some trainers. for example Google: Pat Nolan

I will say that training a place command made hunting my lab out of a pit blind for the first time a piece of cake. He jumped right in no practice needed and sat in the dog box, as place, with ease. He will "place" onto almost anything he fits onto on command and wait for release. Some folks use "kennel" to mean the same as place. FYI

All that said I know next to nothing about spaniel training.

[CDN_Cocker]

I have started using them in much of my training but they are helpful only, certainly not needed. They are mostly a puppy tool... so you can introduce STILL to otherwise very GO dogs without harshness or physical restraint. For retrievers they are also used for handling skills by some trainers. for example Google: Pat Nolan

I will say that training a place command made hunting my lab out of a pit blind for the first time a piece of cake. He jumped right in no practice needed and sat in the dog box, as place, with ease. He will "place" onto almost anything he fits onto on command and wait for release. Some folks use "kennel" to mean the same as place. FYI

All that said I know next to nothing about spaniel training.

This is great to hear My main reason is to encourage him to be "still" as he is a fireball that never stops - definitely not ideal when duck hunting hahaha. I am surprised at how well he is taking to it already and how calm (even though only for a few minutes so far) he is when doing the drill.

[cmc274]

I train all of my dogs, whether they are pointers or retrievers a "place" command....I just use a piece of astro turf though because I want to be able to take it with me until they become consistent. It comes in handy for many situations.

I like the turf place boards too. Sometimes native grasses other times fescue or bermuda. Occasionally rye. All depends.

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

I train all of my dogs, whether they are pointers or retrievers a "place" command....I just use a piece of astro turf though because I want to be able to take it with me until they become consistent. It comes in handy for many situations.

I like the turf place boards too. Sometimes native grasses other times fescue or bermuda. Occasionally rye. All depends.

I use it as a "target". You start out with a bigger piece and work toward smaller pieces until it becomes small enough to carry...I dont think that there is any live grass that would work for this.....I dont use boards or barrels because I use the " place" command for reasons other then steadying. Its simply part of obedience.

[Coveyrise64]

.....I use the " place" command for reasons other then steadying. Its simply part of obedience.

Mine learn early on their "place" is the heel position when coming back at recall or a retrieve. No place mats required .....

The primary reason the retriever guys use stands is so they don't have to bend over everytime they take a bumper from the dogs mouth.....

cr

[Trekmoor]

I think I am beginning to understand why a retriever trainer might want to use a place board. If I have understood your duck hunting and trial system correctly, your retrieves are all done from the one position with only minimal walking needed between "stands" during retriever trials. Your dogs do have a definite "place" they must remain on or in until commanded to retrieve. That isn't nearly so common here. Many, probably most ,retriever trials are conducted on the move during what we call "walked up shooting." A retriever trial could cover a few miles in one day if game was rather sparse. No dog can ever be sure where it will have to sit and stay next while birds fall and while other dogs are sent for them and while waiting it's turn to be sent.

Only if being worked as a "peg dog" or shotover from within a hide or blind for ducks, woodpigeons, geese or perhaps grouse would our retrievers be in the one place for any length of time. Our trial retrievers do have to perform peg-dog work at trials but not enough to make us want to use place boards to train them.
Our spaniels are sometimes used as retrievers while shooting from hides but they are much more commonly worked as hunters of often very rough cover and every retrieve they get will be from a different place.

Perhaps the reason why nobody seems to use barrels or place boards when training any of the pointing dog breeds in Britain is that we have a requirement not just for trials but for all shooting purposes that the dog must do the flush from the point and not it's handler ? We would worry that using those things might make a dog "sticky" on point .....that can be an eliminating fault in British pointing dog trials and is regarded as being a "bleep" nuisance when simply out shooting.

Bill T.

[h&t]

............
Perhaps the reason why nobody seems to use barrels or place boards when training any of the pointing dog breeds in Britain is that we have a requirement not just for trials but for all shooting purposes that the dog must do the flush from the point and not it's handler ? We would worry that using those things might make a dog "sticky" on point .....that can be an eliminating fault in British pointing dog trials and is regarded as being a "bleep" nuisance when simply out shooting.

Perhaps (u know I agree, Bill)

[cjhills]

I could see how a place board could be very good for training a duck blind dog. I tried using one early on seemed like one more thing to keep track of.
Now I follow this theory "I have done so much, with so little, for so long that now I can do any thing with nothing". Pretty much dog, e-collar and birds
Shotgun sometimes. All my hunting dogs start on birds their first fall and Master level by their second. Seven Master titled dogs live in my kennel and hunt every season.
The aids main benefit is that they are fun to use and experiment with.
Trainers are always looking for a edge.
I would like to have my dogs flush on command. haven't tried that yet. Cj

[Coveyrise64]

......Pretty much dog, e-collar and birds, shotgun sometimes.

Works for me.....!

cr

[SpringerDude]

I played around with some placeboards last summer with a pup and I liked what I accomplished. I have used them in the yard with some obedience drills and casting with older dogs and liked those drills as well. Don't carry it to the field. Don't use them to the extent that some pro's use them but they are a tool.

I don't use the e-collar. That's too complicated for me. I like to keep things simple.

[4dabirds]

it does not seem to me that anyone has explained the reason why place boards are used in the first place. No pun intended but I think it it was a good one . When training a dog on a behavior such as stay sit or whoa the dog does not really comprehend the language that we are using as a cue. Since the dog does not understand we are relegated to sing correction to get across the meaning of the word. An example of this is that the dog moves when we say whoa and we leash jerk or collar correct the dog if the dog moves. In this scenario the dog has learned that the cue lets it know when it is dangerous to move. The dog is avoiding the correction so it shuts down and stays still. Since the concept of standing still is impossible for the dog to fully understand, this method uses the dogs innate behavior of seeing the world as safe or dangerous to navigate what is expected .The place board on the other hand becomes a cue in itself where the dog is rewarded for staying in one place. Since the dog can not make out one place on a lawn or a carpet the board is definitive. I have seen that all people when referring to the use of an e-collar almost unanimously say that you should never use an e-collar on a dog for a behavior that is not trained first. Yet a lot of people will use correction to train a behavior that is not fully understood by the dog in the first place. The place board is used to get the dog to understand in a positive manner that standing still is a rewardable behavior. Wether it is to sit in a blind , at the line , or whoa is not really the point , the point is to get the dog to exhibit the behavior on its own, then after the dog is offering the behavior the command is overlaid. When the behavior is completely understood then the e-collar is used to guarantee compliance. This helps to keep the dogs natural style and creates a dog that is understanding what commands mean as opposed to just avoiding correction. Used in conjunction with clicker training the place board as well as a barrel or table get you way ahead of the curve since it is all good in the dogs mind you can train these behaviors with very young pups when their minds are best at soaking up new things.

[DonF]

it does not seem to me that anyone has explained the reason why place boards are used in the first place. No pun intended but I think it it was a good one . When training a dog on a behavior such as stay sit or whoa the dog does not really comprehend the language that we are using as a cue. Since the dog does not understand we are relegated to sing correction to get across the meaning of the word. An example of this is that the dog moves when we say whoa and we leash jerk or collar correct the dog if the dog moves. In this scenario the dog has learned that the cue lets it know when it is dangerous to move. The dog is avoiding the correction so it shuts down and stays still. Since the concept of standing still is impossible for the dog to fully understand, this method uses the dogs innate behavior of seeing the world as safe or dangerous to navigate what is expected .The place board on the other hand becomes a cue in itself where the dog is rewarded for staying in one place. Since the dog can not make out one place on a lawn or a carpet the board is definitive. I have seen that all people when referring to the use of an e-collar almost unanimously say that you should never use an e-collar on a dog for a behavior that is not trained first. Yet a lot of people will use correction to train a behavior that is not fully understood by the dog in the first place. The place board is used to get the dog to understand in a positive manner that standing still is a rewardable behavior. Wether it is to sit in a blind , at the line , or whoa is not really the point , the point is to get the dog to exhibit the behavior on its own, then after the dog is offering the behavior the command is overlaid. When the behavior is completely understood then the e-collar is used to guarantee compliance. This helps to keep the dogs natural style and creates a dog that is understanding what commands mean as opposed to just avoiding correction. Used in conjunction with clicker training the place board as well as a barrel or table get you way ahead of the curve since it is all good in the dogs mind you can train these behaviors with very young pups when their minds are best at soaking up new things.

I don't understand how a dog can reason that the place board is a safe place to stand and the grass is not? I do understand the dog avoiding the collar nic by doing what was asked and not getting the nic. Early on training of commands is hands on but no heavy correction is required. i suppose you could call the whoa post heavy correction, the original Delmar way. But the command is learned before any correction is given. Before the correction the dog is stopped at the end of the check core, it can't move any more! By getting the dog solid there you move to stopping the dog a couple steps away from the end. The correction in teaching the dog this is a bump under the chin if it get's happy feet. The collar is worn but not used yet. When the collar does get used first, the dog is on the check cord. I can't speak for the newer whoa post system, never had the original post fail! Now where does the place board come in here? If the only place the dog learns to stop and stand still is on the place board, won't the dog go looking for it before it stops? And at some point your going to have to teach the dog that whoa means whoa where ever it's at, break it away from the place board. Now you can change the command to what ever you want, sit? Well doesn't sit mean sit where ever you are? How about fetch, doesn't it mean fetch from anywhere the dog happen's to be? And if the dog is broke, isn't what you really want for the dog to stay right where it is until sent? it sounds to me like you teach the dog to do something in a certain place then have to start over and teach the dog that the command needs to be obeyed no matter where it is. teaching it one way then changing the rules down the road doesn't make sense to me. On the whoa post the dog alway's stops at the same place, the end of the check cord. But the position around the post is always changing. Once the dog is stopping on a loose cord, it's about time to make the cord even looser. But not in the same place every time.

I can imagine the dog being told whoa away from the place board and take off looking for it's place board before it stops. So at that point you have to un do the place board because whoa has gone from meaning stop and stand still on the place board, to stop and stand still where ever it hears the command. If it works for you great but I can find no value in it. Consider this. We put the dog on a table to force break it. That is not done to benefit the dog but rather the handler, put's the dog at a better level to work with and takes the dog's feet away from it. When the dog goes the the ground, it pretty much starts all over again, you have never asked the dog to fetch on the ground before that. So if bending down and doing the force breaking in the yard it's actually more benefit to the dog as suddenly the spot for obeying the command is where the dog is going to have to do it in the end. Granted the transition to the ground is fairly easy but if you do it on the ground no transition is necessary. The time involved is the same minus the transition!

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

I don't think we need to get into another "place oriented" argument, but this is the main reason I use the board. It is easier for the dog to learn to sit or stand still in a particular place such as a board, barrel or piece of carpet than it is on the ground. This behavior can be easily established without a verbal cue or with any physical contact with the dog. The board is basically a tool used in yard work, but can have some applications in the field such as a place mat in a duck blind.

Nate

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

.....I use the " place" command for reasons other then steadying. Its simply part of obedience.

Mine learn early on their "place" is the heel position when coming back at recall or a retrieve. No place mats required .....

The primary reason the retriever guys use stands is so they don't have to bend over everytime they take a bumper from the dogs mouth.....

cr

We obviously have 2 different meanings of the "place" command is....I use it to put the dog in a position where it is comfortable and I can go and do whatever I want to do....I don't want them to heel at those times, they do that when I say "Heel". Its simply another Obed tool so that I dont have to confine or restrain them physically.

[DonF]

.....I use the " place" command for reasons other then steadying. Its simply part of obedience.

Mine learn early on their "place" is the heel position when coming back at recall or a retrieve. No place mats required .....

The primary reason the retriever guys use stands is so they don't have to bend over everytime they take a bumper from the dogs mouth.....

cr

We obviously have 2 different meanings of the "place" command is....I use it to put the dog in a position where it is comfortable and I can go and do whatever I want to do....I don't want them to heel at those times, they do that when I say "Heel". Its simply another Obed tool so that I dont have to confine or restrain them physically.

You need to explain this. How do you get the dog to sit on the place board and stay there while you leave it? I know how to do it in normal obedience work, if you do it the same way, you just created another step that probably means something to you and not the dog. Could the dog be sent to sit on it, certainly, shoot my dogs go get into the kennel and load in the back of the jeep when they are told. I could teach them to go to the place board but nobody has explained why or how. As long as I've been hearing about the thing nobody and I mean nobody has ever explained those to things. Kind of like telling a guy with his first dog that want's to train it to point birds. Just go out and let him find a bird? How about so it's useful to him, getting a bit deeper. how about teaching the dog to point until you get there? Training is great but I have a hard time with a bunch of un-needed stuff. That is my problem with the flank collar. I don't think it teach's whoa any faster or any better and from what I have read, it's a lot more severe. Place board doesn't seem severe at all, just a wasted step.

[Neil]

It is hard to win in trials today unless the dog is high and tight at both ends, with no let down even after the flush.

The flank collar is to establish a contact point to transition to an e-collar on the flank. The place board is used to transition from the barrel, where the dog has learned to stand/pose at extreme height.

None of this has anything to do with finding birds or filling a game bag, but has a lot to do with winning at the highest level.

[Coveyrise64]

....I use it to put the dog in a position where it is comfortable and I can go and do whatever I want to do.

"Whoa" seems to work pretty well when I want them to stay in one "place". It's all I ever used when working "steady by the blind", "retrieve of the duck", "blind retrieve", "honor at the water", and "double mark retrieve" for NAVHDA Tests.

"Whoa" = (stop and/or stand still until I release you).....what's so hard to understand about that?

Place boards, mats, barrels, buddy sticks, clickers, jump/rise e-collars, and spreadsheet for intensity levels. No wonder the average person has trouble getting the desired results. Training isn't and shouldn't be that complicated...... :roll:

cr

[CDN_Cocker]

Here's a couple pics of Jake on the higher place board. Will add in the lower one when he gets comfortable on this one.

[DonF]

That look's a bit more like a table than a board? Someone said something about carrying one around, that fit in a vest pocket?

I'm on your side Coveyrise. I adhere to the kiss rule. keep it simple stupid.

[CDN_Cocker]

That look's a bit more like a table than a board? Someone said something about carrying one around, that fit in a vest pocket?

I'm on your side Coveyrise. I adhere to the kiss rule. keep it simple stupid.

The point is to make a definite zone between the place and off. That is 18" high so if he gets off he has to jump off. When he does this I promptly put him back up. My other board is only off the ground with a 2x4. I plan to move to a mat of some sort after that. Grass could be a mile long. Unless you're Usain Bolt, it may be hard to get there quick enough for him to know the difference of moving. There is no definite discrepancy between the spot he has been commanded to stay at and the spot that is a foot away if you're on the grass.

[Neil]

You all need to gain an appreciation for the difference in tests and trials, often times what separates you from a win in a trial is the small things, standing a little taller, a bit more intensity, that extra confidence and style.

Doesn't matter much to good judges, they will value the ability to find wild birds were they available above all else. But even an inexperienced judge can evaluate how far the dog runs and which one moves the least on point.

[RoostersMom]

Mark me down as another fan of KISS.

Mine are steady to wing & shot, FF'd, honor, and are steady to flush. No whoa barrels or place boards. The chessies are slip proof retrievers and have never seen a "board." Collar, leash, e-collar and tons of birds. Nothing needed to "transition" - they just learn that sit means sit until I ask you to do something else, whoa is the same.

[CDN_Cocker]

I find a lot of these posts contradictory... advocates of keeping things single yet use force fetch and e-collars. I guess the way to think about place boards as they are used instead of those other tools. All lead to the same end goal.

[Trekmoor]

I have won trials in Britain but I am coming to the conclusion that I would never win one in America unless I changed my ways. I'm a KISS I suppose because I don't use or I very seldom use any of the training tools that seem to be needed to win in your trials. .... No whoa posts, tables, F.F., place boards, barrels, chain-gangs and very, very little use of e-collars or even check-cords.
It is not that I am hard against using those things, I just don't find that I need to. Does the "average hunter" who does not trial have much need of the training knowledge needed to use those tools well ?

Bill T.

[CDN_Cocker]

I have won trials in Britain but I am coming to the conclusion that I would never win one in America unless I changed my ways. I'm a KISS I suppose because I don't use or I very seldom use any of the training tools that seem to be needed to win in your trials. .... No whoa posts, tables, F.F., place boards, barrels, chain-gangs and very, very little use of e-collars or even check-cords.
It is not that I am hard against using those things, I just don't find that I need to. Does the "average hunter" who does not trial have much need of the training knowledge needed to use those tools well ?

Bill T.

I don't think so Bill. My reason for using place boards is to instill calmly sitting in one place for extended periods of time as I intend to use Jake for non-slip retrieving when I go early season duck hunting. I don't plan on FF or anything else as I most likely will not trial - just hunt with him in my free time. If he messes up here and there - so be it (I mess up plenty of times myself, missing shots and whatnot). However, as I'm sure you know - a young cocker has a hard time sitting still. I have found the place board a handy tool in teaching him to stay in one spot and be calm. We do not "jump shoot" ducks here (or at least I have never met someone who does). Most duck hunting is done from a blind or sitting in cover. For me it is just a tool that is making my training easier... and for the inexperienced trainer - who wouldn't want that?

[Neil]

I have won trials in Britain but I am coming to the conclusion that I would never win one in America unless I changed my ways. I'm a KISS I suppose because I don't use or I very seldom use any of the training tools that seem to be needed to win in your trials. .... No whoa posts, tables, F.F., place boards, barrels, chain-gangs and very, very little use of e-collars or even check-cords.
It is not that I am hard against using those things, I just don't find that I need to. Does the "average hunter" who does not trial have much need of the training knowledge needed to use those tools well ?

Bill T.

No. I trained a couple dozen hunting dogs before I knew what any of those things were.

[RoostersMom]

Having never used a place board or a whoa barrel, I would be interested to know if the dogs learn faster or better when using those items than if you're just teaching the whoa or the sit without those tools. Do the dogs take a while to understand that there is no "place board" in the boat or the blind or do they just transition the command and don't need the reminder of the board? I haven't used these deals, but that's because I haven't worked with anyone that uses them - sometimes that's all it takes for you to learn - to have someone who shows you how to use the tool. That said, all of my dogs know the "blanket" command in the house. I say it, they all go to their respective beds. If I move the bed outside and say "blanket," they find it an lay on it. I'm assuming the place board is used similarly to how I do the "blanket" training?

[CDN_Cocker]

Having never used a place board or a whoa barrel, I would be interested to know if the dogs learn faster or better when using those items than if you're just teaching the whoa or the sit without those tools. Do the dogs take a while to understand that there is no "place board" in the boat or the blind or do they just transition the command and don't need the reminder of the board? I haven't used these deals, but that's because I haven't worked with anyone that uses them - sometimes that's all it takes for you to learn - to have someone who shows you how to use the tool. That said, all of my dogs know the "blanket" command in the house. I say it, they all go to their respective beds. If I move the bed outside and say "blanket," they find it an lay on it. I'm assuming the place board is used similarly to how I do the "blanket" training?

you bet

[4dabirds]

Don you are missing the point I was trying to make. It is not that the place board is seen by the dog as a safe place. The dog is using it as a cue in its environment to gain reward. What I was saying in regards to dogs seeing things as safe and dangerous relates to avoidance of correction methods to teach a dog to stand still such as leash jerking the dog into stopping or healing. The place board is the antithesis of this. The dog gets on the board in anticipation of reward. In doing so it exhibits a behavior that is wanted by the trainer . This allows the trainer to reward the dog for a behavior the dog wants to do. When the dog is performing these tasks and is motivated to do so, training is far more productive and can begin art a younger age. Would you put much pressure on a 10 week old pup ? I don't think so. But you could feed the dog off a place board and have a foundation for the whoa command at this age ,creating a dog that is motivated to learn and perceives training as a positive thing that gets the dog reward. People look at it as though it is another step , and it may well be, but the important thing is it is not meant to make it easier on the trainer it is meant to make it easier on the dog. When the dog is on the same page as the trainer it will be easier on the trainer .

[cjhills]

Clicking and treating when the dog stands still seems simpler and the dog gets rewarded for stopping not for getting on the board. Cj