Question for those with spaniel experience

FirearmFan · Post by **FirearmFan** » Thu May 16, 2013 11:36 am

Often times people say to a newbie "pick a training program and stick with." I would like to do this however the problem I'm running into is that there isn't a whole out there for training Springers. I've done some searching and found a handful of books and a few dvd's. I was wondering what those with some experience think of these books and also recommend any others. Training for upland and waterfowl. Thanks.

Gun dog training spaniels and retrievers. Kenneth Roebuck.

Hup! Training flushing spaniels the American way. James B. Spencer.

Working springers and cockers. Mike smith.

Retriever training for spaniels: working with soft tempered, hard-headed, intelligent dogs. Pamela kadlec.

DVD's by Simon Tyers and David Lisett

Blackjaw · Post by **Blackjaw** » Thu May 16, 2013 11:40 am

I like Keith Erlandson's books the best and the Simon Tyers training dvds are also good.
Paul McGagh has some good training tips on his web site that are alos worth taking a look at.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Thu May 16, 2013 2:07 pm

I have wasted money on most of those. The best are are Spencer's book, Tyers' dvd, and Mike Smith's book. The rest isn't worth your time, learn from my mistakes - and my wallet.

birdshot · Post by **birdshot** » Thu May 16, 2013 3:36 pm

I recommend you seek out a field trial club in your area. There is a nice kennel in Bainerd, Mn. about 200 miles from your place. I am sure there are a few others closer. When I got my first spaniel I pitched in at a kennel and got a lot of good experience. I think as long as you use your ears and eyes, more than your mouth, alot of trainers will put up with you for a couple of days a month.

I usually recommend James Spencers book.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Thu May 16, 2013 5:19 pm

CDN_Cocker wrote:I have wasted money on most of those. The best are are Spencer's book, Tyers' dvd, and Mike Smith's book. The rest isn't worth your time, learn from my mistakes - and my wallet.

Well put, Cass - now if the OP intends to train his/her spaniel nonslip for waterfowling - as you would a Boykin or AWS and can do with a springer - s/he might go with this http://cherylonloveland.com/www.cherylo ... tions.html and just think of the title as "Retrieving Spaniel Puppy Training: The Right Start for Hunting." Because if you know how to train to scale, on both size and temperament, spaniels train just like retrievers.

MG

PS Cass, if you want to spend (I didn't say blow) some more dough, Simon Tyers can't hold a candle to Davey Lisett's DVDs: http://www.buccleuchsporting.co.uk/gundogs Of course what any spaniel trainer out there can teach you about water work - for you know, waterfowling - would just about fit on the head of a pin...

DoubleBarrel GunDogs · Post by **DoubleBarrel GunDogs** » Thu May 16, 2013 8:22 pm

Check out www.georgehickox.com

George has a seminar in Plainview, MN in June 20-23. I recommend this seminar for you, and his DVD Great Beginnings for Retrievers. George also co-authored a good book in 2000 with Joe Arnette titled, Training Retrievers and Spaniels to Hunt 'Em Up. However this book does not include clicker work that Hickox now uses. George is an accomplished ESS guy, and has ran Springers in field trials with great success.

Nate

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Fri May 17, 2013 2:22 am

DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote:George is an accomplished ESS guy, and has ran Springers in field trials with great success.

Really? When and where?

And to put a finer point on it, spaniel field trials, as you must know, have no water work whatsoever, much less blind retrieves on land or water for handling. Which is a far sight away from "teaching spaniels and retrievers to hunt 'em up."

MG

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Fri May 17, 2013 3:58 am

I have never seen a U.S. spaniel trial so I have very little knowledge of the standards required . I have heard very good reports of Dave Lisset's spaniel training videos and I have met Dave a few times and have trained one of my spaniels on his land. He is one of those quiet spoken sort of blokes who does what it says on the tin, a good man with a spaniel. The O.P. could do far worse than to buy his videos. He is often particularly admired in this country for his ability to encourage pups "right into his chest" with retrieves. Since we do not train F.F. here ,we have to make pups into very keen "natural" retrievers...... Dave can do that very well.

Bill T.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Fri May 17, 2013 7:32 am

crackerd wrote:
CDN_Cocker wrote:I have wasted money on most of those. The best are are Spencer's book, Tyers' dvd, and Mike Smith's book. The rest isn't worth your time, learn from my mistakes - and my wallet.
Well put, Cass - now if the OP intends to train his/her spaniel nonslip for waterfowling - as you would a Boykin or AWS and can do with a springer - s/he might go with this http://cherylonloveland.com/www.cherylo ... tions.html and just think of the title as "Retrieving Spaniel Puppy Training: The Right Start for Hunting." Because if you know how to train to scale, on both size and temperament, spaniels train just like retrievers.

MG

PS Cass, if you want to spend (I didn't say blow) some more dough, Simon Tyers can't hold a candle to Davey Lisett's DVDs: http://www.buccleuchsporting.co.uk/gundogs Of course what any spaniel trainer out there can teach you about water work - for you know, waterfowling - would just about fit on the head of a pin...

I've spent my share on enough now and realized most are the same with varying levels of detail. I think Spencer's book is by far the best as it is very detailed and relates to how we hunt with spaniels here. We don't have the luxuries of rabbit pens and huge driven shoots - you're usually on your own tromping through the bush. His book explains how to get an efficient, reliable dog that is a multi-tasker and is a "one dog-hunts-all" (or versatile dog) - fur, feather and a nonslip retriever. You cannot go wrong with this book. I think hands-on training is something that is quite important and you need to try to find other spanielers in your area. If not, look elsewhere for someone who can help you with at least some of your training. Myself, I have just lined myself up with a prominent retriever trialer who lives nearby so I plan on spending some time out at his place and with his HRC learning a few things. Granted, a lot won't pertain to me and I will have to do it in the order that suits a spaniel, but a lot WILL pertain to me - non slip retrieving training and obedience. I can't do everything the same as I do not own a lab but I know that at certain points in my pup's training I will be able to get that guidance that I need. As crackerd told me once - sometimes you gotta think outside the box to get to your end goal.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Fri May 17, 2013 7:45 am

Myself, I have just lined myself up with a prominent retriever trialer who lives nearby so I plan on spending some time out at his place and with his HRC learning a few things. Granted, a lot won't pertain to me and I will have to do it in the order that suits a spaniel, but a lot WILL pertain to me - non slip retrieving training and obedience.

This is great news, Cass - and you'll be surprised how much more of it you'll want to pertain to you (and Jake), when you see it unfold in front of you and start to think, "Hey, my little pocket-rocket can do that too..." That's where the outside-the-box gratification comes from - and cockers can cut that mustard, no worries there.

MG

Blackjaw · Post by **Blackjaw** » Fri May 17, 2013 8:05 am

For those of you who are really into spaniel training/trialing. You should try and find a copy of Carltons "Spaniels: their Breaking for Sport and Field Trials". It was written in 1915 but still has alot of interesting training tips and comments on spaniels that are still relevent today (Plus there are some pics of springers before the field/show split that are interesting). I found a copy for ~$10.00 and still go back and read sections every once in awhile.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Fri May 17, 2013 8:31 am

good call, blackjaw - with alas the opening of a can of worms about that title. Hope Wullie (Bill T.) clues into this, as I've long wondered about "the breaking of spaniels" and when it ("breaking" a k a force fetch) went away in the UK. Or if "breaking" in the spaniel sense had another connotation entirely. I've got the book but cannae recall - living (and training) in the present as we do.

However, I will admit to harking back to the days of yore when a red-headed substitute named Ben Watson headed in the goal to give Wigan its first FA Cup last weekend at Wembley 1-nil over Manchester City - "Ben Watson" also being the title from the 1920s of my favourite (non-training) spaniel book (author: CJ Cutcliffe-Hyne).

MG

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Fri May 17, 2013 12:13 pm

crackerd wrote:good call, blackjaw - with alas the opening of a can of worms about that title. Hope Wullie (Bill T.) clues into this, as I've long wondered about "the breaking of spaniels" and when it ("breaking" a k a force fetch) went away in the UK. Or if "breaking" in the spaniel sense had another connotation entirely. I've got the book but cannae recall - living (and training) in the present as we do.

MG

O.K. Mike, my opinions as per your request .

............ This is not an easy subject for me to comment on. The word "breaking" as it refers to dog training is one I haven't heard here for about 40 years and it wasn't commonly used even then. This is not to say that these methods do not still exist but they are now far less common. As I understand it the idea used to be to "break" a dog down a bit like a recruit to the army. Like the army recruits the soft dogs and the dogs with little natural "go" about them usually failed to survive their training or brain-washing or breaking or any other name you care to call it. Only the tougher, harder going dogs made eventual gundogs , the other dogs that could have been trained to be very good gundogs by more modern methods fell by the wayside and were sometimes culled. Nowadays those softies are kept and are often bred from which has led to many "old-timers" like myself bemoaning the modern trend for both spaniels and labs to be a bit on the soft side.

Personally, I find a keen but soft dog to be an easy dog to train but those more inclined towards the old "give it a darned good hiding" ways of training find these dogs harder to train.... the dog's cannot take the physical corrections as they once could. Very few British trainers use an e-collar for anything other than sheep chasing but that does not mean we do not have our share of the e-collar equivalent of "frying their asses" idiots among us.

I had Carlton's book until someone borrowed it along with some other very old gundog books and never gave me them back !

The title uses the word "breaking" but there is very little breaking done within the books contents. I wish I could say otherwise but Britain , while condemning the use of e-collars still too often uses fists, boots and ear lifting instead. It is not nearly as common as it once was but it does still go on. I correct dogs phsically myself but I like to think I know where to draw the line according to the individual dog's temperament.

Bill T.

UplandJim · Post by **UplandJim** » Fri May 17, 2013 12:36 pm

Paul McGagh is in North Dakota he is the best of the best in field trialing here in the states. He runs both cockers and springers. He has a training clinic here in PA tomorrow of which my wife and I are attending.

Tom Ness of Oahe Kennels is also in ND, he is up there with McGagh.

Good luck!

FirearmFan · Post by **FirearmFan** » Fri May 17, 2013 1:12 pm

Thanks everyone for all of the replies so far. Looks like a lot of good information. Keep them coming. I'm trying to absorb as much as possible before the pup arrives.

DoubleBarrel GunDogs · Post by **DoubleBarrel GunDogs** » Fri May 17, 2013 10:07 pm

crackerd wrote:
DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote:George is an accomplished ESS guy, and has ran Springers in field trials with great success.
Really? When and where?

(Canada and the US. He was also part of the first AKC hunt test committee in NY in 1985) For some other credentials look at this site: http://www.georgehickox.com/about_georg ... tials.html

And to put a finer point on it, spaniel field trials, as you must know, have no water work whatsoever, much less blind retrieves on land or water for handling. Which is a far sight away from "teaching spaniels and retrievers to hunt 'em up."

MG

I never implied that they did, and Hickox is not necessarily a waterfowl guy. However all of his training methods are sound, and can be used for any breed of gun dog. Furthermore, I personally believe you should'nt comment on or nock any book you haven't read yet.

Nate

DoubleBarrel GunDogs · Post by **DoubleBarrel GunDogs** » Fri May 17, 2013 11:18 pm

CDN_Cocker wrote: Myself, I have just lined myself up with a prominent retriever trialer who lives nearby so I plan on spending some time out at his place and with his HRC learning a few things.

Good for you Cass!

If you have your introductory field work in place, you should run him in a SHR test later this year. Don't let those labs intimidate you and the little feller.

A spaniel in the regular HRC tests usually looks a little out of place, but run one of their silly UH tests with a truly steady dog, and I guarantee they'll look twice.

Nate

SpringerDude · Post by **SpringerDude** » Wed May 22, 2013 8:37 pm

Firearmfan,

You should be able to find a training group close by your place to help you with your progress. I will see what Spaniel Clubs are up your way and you should try to go meet with them even prior to getting the pup and see what they are doing. Lots to learn and understand even without the pup. I like Pine Shadows videos. Spencers book.

Cass, Good for you to go train with the retriever guy. I don't do everything exactly as the retrievers but I do what I can with the equipment I have which is minimal. Run your cocker in the next Started test in your area if it is old enough. There are a few things the dog needs to be prepared for such as marking birds tossed out of a winger instead of your hand, gunshot, ducks, decoy's and good distance swim's at the water. A good retrieving spaniel with desire shouldn't have an issue at a Started test.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu May 23, 2013 11:06 am

Let me add Pam Kadlec's book "Retriever Training for Spaniels" available at her interesting web site.

Also a book by? Journery (I think), more of a workbook really, that I found helpful.

EDIT

It is Charles Jurney, the manual is available at Amazon for ten bucks. The extra is the spiral binding, allow it to lay open on the traing table for those of us with short memories.

DoubleBarrel GunDogs · Post by **DoubleBarrel GunDogs** » Thu May 23, 2013 10:52 pm

Neil wrote:Let me add Pam Kadlec's book "Retriever Training for Spaniels" available at her interesting web site.

I agree that she has an interesting website. I also like her breeding and puppy program very much.

However, I can't get myself to order her book after watching this you tube video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5F0Y-FRSPg

Nate

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Fri May 24, 2013 8:26 am

DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote:
Neil wrote:Let me add Pam Kadlec's book "Retriever Training for Spaniels" available at her interesting web site.
I agree that she has an interesting website. I also like her breeding and puppy program very much.

However, I can't get myself to order her book after watching this you tube video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5F0Y-FRSPg

Nate

LOL I've watched that before. That dog is insane. Way too hyper for this guy hahaha.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Fri May 24, 2013 11:01 am

CDN_Cocker wrote:
DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote:
Neil wrote:Let me add Pam Kadlec's book "Retriever Training for Spaniels" available at her interesting web site.
I agree that she has an interesting website. I also like her breeding and puppy program very much.

However, I can't get myself to order her book after watching this you tube video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5F0Y-FRSPg

Nate
LOL I've watched that before. That dog is insane. Way too hyper for this guy hahaha.

How come, Cass - because the pup constantly moves about wanting to put something in its mouth? That's the easiest dog to force fetch - because you're helping it do something it wants to do in the first place, which is retrieve.

As Neil notes Ms. Kadlec knows her Boykins, and her book can be helpful to first-timers or spanielers trying to train their dogs for nonslip work. But she could've force fetched the dog with a lot less "clutter." You don't need anything but a paint roller and a li'lo application of an ear pinch - everything else is extraneous. Just like with a Lab - or any other retrieving gundog. And just like with a Lab - or any other retrieving gundog, you want to have trained "hold" before starting force fetch, because hold is 90% of force fetch.

'Fraid hyper doesn't really enter into it, but again, a gundog's desire to have something in its mouth does - a great deal - for ensuring success.

MG

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Fri May 24, 2013 11:13 am

I think my pup would fly through it if he was old enough hahaha. He's rarely seen not carrying something. In Spencer's book he advises not FF a spaniel till 18-24 months of age. Anyone have an opinion on this? (and no, not talking about for my dog, I haven't even done formal obedience yet. Just curious as to people's opinions on this).

FirearmFan · Post by **FirearmFan** » Fri May 24, 2013 11:55 am

SpringerDude wrote:Firearmfan,

You should be able to find a training group close by your place to help you with your progress. I will see what Spaniel Clubs are up your way and you should try to go meet with them even prior to getting the pup and see what they are doing. Lots to learn and understand even without the pup. I like Pine Shadows videos.

Thanks springerdude. I have looked for nearby spaniel clubs. I didn't find anything too close. The closest one I found was in the Twin Cities, MN. Which is only a little over an hour and a half away and that's where I am originally from and where all my family lives but it is still a bit of a haul.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Fri May 24, 2013 12:07 pm

CDN_Cocker wrote: In Spencer's book he advises not FF a spaniel till 18-24 months of age. Anyone have an opinion on this? (and no, not talking about for my dog, I haven't even done formal obedience yet. Just curious as to people's opinions on this).

Cass, Jim Spencer is a gentleman who wrote a real nice book about spaniels, but it's not particularly deep on training and Mr. Spencer was not a spaniel trainer to my knowledge. He had golden retrievers which he may have entered in minor field trial stakes a few times and I think he also took a stab at training a GSP (and made a humorous article out of the 9 or 10 or dozen tries it took for him and the dog to get a junior hunter title). So he's filtering that timeframe about spaniels through someone else but I have no idea who. Forcing a spaniel can (and, if you're planning to run any kind of hunt tests or trials, should) be done at the same age you would force fetch a Boykin...or a Chessie... or a Lab: at 7-8 months. You need to understand why you're force fetching the pup, however, and it ain't - and better not be with any gundog breed - to get it to retrieve.

MG

SpringerDude · Post by **SpringerDude** » Mon May 27, 2013 8:47 pm

Jim Spencer is from the Wichita Ks area. He got himself a nice springer and then started training with the folks in the Central Kansas Springer Spaniel Club. Probably wasn't the best spaniel trainer but the folks in the club stated that he took their training techniques and communicated them well in his book HUP! That Club was quite successful and many nice spaniels were trained in this manner, before and after the book was written.

Why would you want to Force Fetch?

jhorak · Post by **jhorak** » Mon May 27, 2013 9:10 pm

wow, that video was just painful. I've read a little of her book, and remember not being overly impressed, but I don't think it was bad either. However, her handling of that dog was just appalling. I couldn't watch the whole thing. WAY too much verbal clutter, and I couldn't even figure out what she was trying to get across with that dog. She just didn't come across as a good dog handler.

As to the original post, I have the Tyre's videos and enjoyed them. Mostly for being able to watch Simon's demeanor with his dogs. The training tips were helpful also though. For a beginner trainer, a book that hasn't been mentioned and might be useful is "Urban Gundog." I've found that no single book is perfect for me...I've pieced together what suits me and my dogs best.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Tue May 28, 2013 2:23 am

SpringerDude wrote:Why would you want to Force Fetch (a spaniel)?

Tim, you've recently goten involved in spaniel field trials, right? Meanwhile, I've been out of spaniel games for about 10 years. What is the current consensus on FF? I recall it as common practice by those who ran HTs and FTs though they weren't overt at making it common knowledge. Same with use of the e-collar.

But as to why?, if you're going to run the top rung of retriever games with a retrieving spaniel, or any spaniel you choose to train for non-slip work, it's self-apparent. (The agony of watching a spaniel hunt test water blind is justification for FF in itself.) But I agree, if you're running field trials - with no blinds, no water marks and certainly no multiple marks - you can get by without a need for force fetch. And I certainly wouldn't introduce or try to impart it when the dog's 24-28 months old, a la Spencer's recommendation.

MG

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Tue May 28, 2013 7:48 am

jhorak wrote:For a beginner trainer, a book that hasn't been mentioned and might be useful is "Urban Gundog." I've found that no single book is perfect for me...I've pieced together what suits me and my dogs best.

This was the first book I bought as I live in the city. And while it is fairly good for giving ideas of working in an urban setting, really if you have a bird dog that you want to train - you will find a way. You train the same as someone out in the country - you may not have the ease of using birds as often or have them as plentiful but you can do it. However it is a good read.

jhorak · Post by **jhorak** » Tue May 28, 2013 8:51 am

I wasn't recommending it in the context of urban training. It is not as in-depth as some books, but I found it to be particularly helpful early on. A seasoned dog handler wouldn't find it as useful, I think.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Tue May 28, 2013 9:05 am

jhorak wrote:wow, that video was just painful. I've read a little of her book, and remember not being overly impressed, but I don't think it was bad either. However, her handling of that dog was just appalling. I couldn't watch the whole thing. WAY too much verbal clutter, and I couldn't even figure out what she was trying to get across with that dog. She just didn't come across as a good dog handler.

As to the original post, I have the Tyre's videos and enjoyed them. Mostly for being able to watch Simon's demeanor with his dogs. The training tips were helpful also though. For a beginner trainer, a book that hasn't been mentioned and might be useful is "Urban Gundog." I've found that no single book is perfect for me...I've pieced together what suits me and my dogs best.

I just watched the video, as to hyper, I'd say about average for a Boykin. I have had some that makes that one seem calm. Whatever, Pam has dominated the BSS Hunting Tests, which give placements, more like a field trial. The results say Pam knows what she is doing.

Welcome to the world of the Boykin, they are like no other. I found her book helpful in training just that type dog.

FirearmFan · Post by **FirearmFan** » Tue May 28, 2013 9:14 am

jhorak wrote:I wasn't recommending it in the context of urban training. It is not as in-depth as some books, but I found it to be particularly helpful early on. A seasoned dog handler wouldn't find it as useful, I think.

So how useful would this be for me? I am a rookie dog handler but I live in a rural setting. I'm just curious what type of useful info it contains. Thanks.

jhorak · Post by **jhorak** » Tue May 28, 2013 9:19 am

I don't have any problem with the energy level of the dog...I have a year old Cocker out in the kennel right now that has a very similar energy level.

Maybe this video was not her best representation, I just wasn't impressed. She certainly interacted with that dog much differently than a Simon Tyer's or a David Lissett would have (and they have fairly decent credentials as well).

To each his own, I suppose. I do think that in general the retriever world is much more pragmatic than the spaniel world, hence the methods used tend to be different. The Boykin owners seem to tend more toward traditional retriever methods than spaniel methods from what I've seen/read.

Neil wrote:
jhorak wrote:wow, that video was just painful. I've read a little of her book, and remember not being overly impressed, but I don't think it was bad either. However, her handling of that dog was just appalling. I couldn't watch the whole thing. WAY too much verbal clutter, and I couldn't even figure out what she was trying to get across with that dog. She just didn't come across as a good dog handler.

As to the original post, I have the Tyre's videos and enjoyed them. Mostly for being able to watch Simon's demeanor with his dogs. The training tips were helpful also though. For a beginner trainer, a book that hasn't been mentioned and might be useful is "Urban Gundog." I've found that no single book is perfect for me...I've pieced together what suits me and my dogs best.
I just watched the video, as to hyper, I'd say about average for a Boykin. I have had some that makes that one seem calm. Whatever, Pam has dominated the BSS Hunting Tests, which give placements, more like a field trial. The results say Pam knows what she is doing.

Welcome to the world of the Boykin, they are like no other. I found her book helpful in training just that type dog.

jhorak · Post by **jhorak** » Tue May 28, 2013 9:26 am

FirearmFan wrote:
jhorak wrote:I wasn't recommending it in the context of urban training. It is not as in-depth as some books, but I found it to be particularly helpful early on. A seasoned dog handler wouldn't find it as useful, I think.

So how useful would this be for me? I am a rookie dog handler but I live in a rural setting. I'm just curious what type of useful info it contains. Thanks.

It's an easy ready, and you'll learn something from it, so I'd say it's worth it. You also can't replace the videos though. Books tell you how to do it, which is important. Videos will give you a better idea of how to interact with your dog while doing what you read. Watching Simon interact with his dogs was invaluable to me.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Tue May 28, 2013 9:52 am

jhorak wrote:Maybe this video was not her best representation, I just wasn't impressed. She certainly interacted with that dog much differently than a Simon Tyer's or a David Lissett would have (and they have fairly decent credentials as well).

To each his own, I suppose. I do think that in general the retriever world is much more pragmatic than the spaniel world, hence the methods used tend to be different. The Boykin owners seem to tend more toward traditional retriever methods than spaniel methods from what I've seen/read.

If by pragmatic, you mean more workaday - as in getting worked every day on different concepts in training - then yes, "the retriever world" is more pragmatic and, inclusive of Boykins, produces the most highly-trained gundogs for today's competitions. Most highly-trained because they're most often-trained - and trained far beyond quartering and flushing a bird, hupping to it, then getting sent for a retrieve. "Traditional spaniel methods" - that works two ways, I'll never forget hearing it said about one well-known pro in my area that "his dogs only get wet when it rains on them." But hey, in the UK it's not only "traditional" for the spaniels to stay dry, but the retrievers' training is usually devoid of water work too.

As Neil noted, Ms. Kadlec some years ago dominated the Boykin Nationals, and from what I know of her, did so by dint of training her spaniels as retrievers - these "trials" essentially run under the auspices of HRC as retriever tests with everything those events include. Upland testing at the Boykin National didn't come along until a few years ago - at approximately the same time Boykins began entering and making a snap of AKC spaniel hunt tests.

MG

jhorak · Post by **jhorak** » Tue May 28, 2013 11:41 am

I guess I haven't seen these super Boykins you keep referring to. I have seen a number of them at spaniel HTs, and none of them wowed me. I'm not saying they weren't nice, but there was nothing that set them apart from the other spaniels INCLUDING their training. I have also participated in a retriever training day with a retriever club. Again, I was not overly impressed. There was a lot of shouting, hammering on the whistle, and some sloppy retrieving work. I didn't go back after that, even though I had an open invite. I have seen some very nice retriever work in the past, including from the dam of my yellow lab I had in high school. She (the dam) was a FC. I am sure there are excellent Boykin and obviously there are some great retriever representations out there, but there are also some that should make you embarrassed. I don't think it's much different in the Spaniels either.

To be an ambassador for your methods is one thing, to do it by making other methods look trite or inferior is another.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Tue May 28, 2013 12:00 pm

"Open invite" as opposed to anybody who might've been turned away for "inferior training methods?" Retriever clubs - especially HRC - are rather inclusive, so no need to issue an "open invite." "Hammering with a whistle" is phrase that probably coincides with your not knowing what you were hearing - i.e., handling on blind retrieves. Blind retrieves in retriever tests and trials are handling exercises - unlike a spaniel hunt test's pale facsimile of a blind called a "hunt dead. Retrievers (and retrieving spaniels) have to challenge a blind, meaning they must be kept on a tight line through hazards and distractions to reach their destination, not take 3-5 minutes and shamble their way onto a planted bird as happens in a spaniel hunt dead on land and even more pitiable to watch for the water blind.

Save for Neil's personal expression, from his own experience, nobody here's made any pronouncements about "super Boykins," though I can tell you very few Boykin handlers with a retrieving background would deign to run a spaniel hunt test. Unless, that is, they were into collecting ribbons - so easy are the tests, and not just for Boykins, but as you put it "for the other spaniels" too.

MG

jhorak · Post by **jhorak** » Tue May 28, 2013 12:35 pm

Thanks for all of your gracious clarification in your first paragraph. Obviously I'm just ignorant and don't understand the finer points of handling a dog.

Since clearly anything having to do with with Spaniels (both here in the US and in the UK) is complete foolishness, which events are worthy of your dogs? Retriever trials?

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Tue May 28, 2013 2:51 pm

jhorak wrote:I guess I haven't seen these super Boykins you keep referring to. I have seen a number of them at spaniel HTs, and none of them wowed me. I'm not saying they weren't nice, but there was nothing that set them apart from the other spaniels INCLUDING their training. I have also participated in a retriever training day with a retriever club. Again, I was not overly impressed. There was a lot of shouting, hammering on the whistle, and some sloppy retrieving work. I didn't go back after that, even though I had an open invite. I have seen some very nice retriever work in the past, including from the dam of my yellow lab I had in high school. She (the dam) was a FC. I am sure there are excellent Boykin and obviously there are some great retriever representations out there, but there are also some that should make you embarrassed. I don't think it's much different in the Spaniels either.

To be an ambassador for your methods is one thing, to do it by making other methods look trite or inferior is another.

Please let us know when your book comes out, with your vast knowledge and experience it is sure to be the definitive work.

jhorak · Post by **jhorak** » Tue May 28, 2013 2:57 pm

Neil wrote:
jhorak wrote:I guess I haven't seen these super Boykins you keep referring to. I have seen a number of them at spaniel HTs, and none of them wowed me. I'm not saying they weren't nice, but there was nothing that set them apart from the other spaniels INCLUDING their training. I have also participated in a retriever training day with a retriever club. Again, I was not overly impressed. There was a lot of shouting, hammering on the whistle, and some sloppy retrieving work. I didn't go back after that, even though I had an open invite. I have seen some very nice retriever work in the past, including from the dam of my yellow lab I had in high school. She (the dam) was a FC. I am sure there are excellent Boykin and obviously there are some great retriever representations out there, but there are also some that should make you embarrassed. I don't think it's much different in the Spaniels either.

To be an ambassador for your methods is one thing, to do it by making other methods look trite or inferior is another.
Please let us know when your book comes out, with your vast knowledge and experience it is sure to be the definitive work.

I guess I wasn't trying to say that I have all of the answers, I'm not sure why you took it that way. If I write a book, you will be sure to get you a signed copy though!

There are a lot of people that read this board, and for MG to completely throw spaniel training methods in the mud and try to make it look like a joke a shame. My point is simply that there are good dogs and poor dogs that result on both sides. I thought I made that fairly clear in my previous post.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Tue May 28, 2013 4:32 pm

Do you read what you write?

"Didn't wow me. Not overly impressed. Nothing sets them apart. Sloppy retriever work. Should make you embarrassed."

All based on your having seen good retriever work in the past to which compare it.

I will look forward to your book. Someone with such criticism, such negativism, so disparaging about one breed, obviously has much to share on the more accomplished breed(s) and how to properly train them.

I so want to be proud of, and not embarrassed by my Boykins.

UplandJim · Post by **UplandJim** » Wed May 29, 2013 8:15 am

crackerd wrote:( ... ) at approximately the same time Boykins began entering and making a snap of AKC spaniel hunt tests.
MG

crackerd, I think this is the "super boykin" reference he was referring to.

UplandJim · Post by **UplandJim** » Wed May 29, 2013 8:18 am

crackerd wrote: Forcing a spaniel can (and, if you're planning to run any kind of hunt tests or trials, should) be done at the same age you would force fetch a Boykin...or a Chessie... or a Lab: at 7-8 months. You need to understand why you're force fetching the pup, however, and it ain't - and better not be with any gundog breed - to get it to retrieve.
MG

Crackerd, I need to understand why someone would "force fetch" a spaniel for field trials.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Wed May 29, 2013 8:49 am

UplandJim wrote: Crackerd, I need to understand why someone would "force fetch" a spaniel for field trials.

I just brought it up as I read it in Spencer's book. I remember asking my breeder about FF and his reply was "If I had to FF a spaniel it wouldn't last around my place" and he is a prominent trialler

UplandJim · Post by **UplandJim** » Wed May 29, 2013 9:35 am

CDN_Cocker wrote:
UplandJim wrote: Crackerd, I need to understand why someone would "force fetch" a spaniel for field trials.
I just brought it up as I read it in Spencer's book. I remember asking my breeder about FF and his reply was "If I had to FF a spaniel it wouldn't last around my place" and he is a prominent trialler

I agree with your breeder. I want to know why Crackerd thinks spaniels "should be" trained to "force fetch" e.g.

crackerd wrote: ( ... ) Forcing a spaniel can (and, if you're planning to run any kind of hunt tests or trials, should) be done at the same age you would force fetch a Boykin...or a Chessie... or a Lab: at 7-8 months. You need to understand why you're force fetching the pup, however, and it ain't - and better not be with any gundog breed - to get it to retrieve.

MG

[/quote]

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed May 29, 2013 9:57 am

I would never be so bold as to answer for mg, his spaniel expertise far surpasses mine, I am just a pointing dog guy with 4 Boykins in my kennel.

But FF is needed for far more than just bringing back something that falls from the sky, they can all be trained to do that. It teaches obedience, gives control, and makes the retrieve non-opitional. Done right, it makes a dog foolproof. Yet the real advantage is as a foundation for advanced training. For years I resisted doing it, then I decided I just did not like it, so I pay someone else to FF.

I am not nearly as tough as I act, FF is far more painful for me than the dog.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Wed May 29, 2013 10:34 am

UplandJim wrote:
CDN_Cocker wrote:
UplandJim wrote: Crackerd, I need to understand why someone would "force fetch" a spaniel for field trials.
I just brought it up as I read it in Spencer's book. I remember asking my breeder about FF and his reply was "If I had to FF a spaniel it wouldn't last around my place" and he is a prominent trialler
I agree with your breeder. I want to know why Crackerd thinks spaniels "should be" trained to "force fetch" e.g.

Careful there, Cass' breeder's the same chap who sold him a female only to have Cass get a couple of hundred miles away and find out something else was "prominent" but not particularly girly...

.

Why force fetch? Neil's told you why in a fairly articulate way. If I ran spaniel field trials, and only spaniel field trials, I probably would still force fetch because I know and am pretty adept at it "hurting me more than it hurts the dog," as Neil also put it - thus a "kinder, gentler" force fetch as once advocated by Neil's neighbor, Mr. Milner. But FF wouldn't be necessary, not for spaniel field trials, because there's not a whole lot of advanced training - for blind retrieves, multiple marks, water work and precision handling on those blinds - required for running spaniel trials. It's bracework and honoring and steadiness - and a retrieve, all of which can be achieved without force fetch. And that's what Cass' breeder was getting it with his remark about a "spaniel not lasting long around his place" if it had to be force fetched. My comment was more about "when" than why, and made vis a vis Jim Spencer's recommendation that force fetch be imparted when a spaniel's 24-28 months old. Particularly if you're a new trainer and force fetching for the first time, that could be disastrous. If you're an experienced trainer, and force fetching a spaniel with the motivation as laid out by Neil, and/or with the idea of running retriever events, where that advanced training is a prerequisite, you would likely be force fetching at a far younger age to begin with.

MG

UplandJim · Post by **UplandJim** » Wed May 29, 2013 10:58 am

crackerd wrote:
UplandJim wrote:
CDN_Cocker wrote: I just brought it up as I read it in Spencer's book. I remember asking my breeder about FF and his reply was "If I had to FF a spaniel it wouldn't last around my place" and he is a prominent trialler
I agree with your breeder. I want to know why Crackerd thinks spaniels "should be" trained to "force fetch" e.g.
Careful there, Cass' breeder's the same chap who sold him a female only to have Cass get a couple of hundred miles away and find out something else was "prominent" but not particularly girly... .

Why force fetch? Neil's told you why in a fairly articulate way. If I ran spaniel field trials, and only spaniel field trials, I probably would still force fetch because I know and am pretty adept at it "hurting me more than it hurts the dog," as Neil also put it - thus a "kinder, gentler" force fetch as once advocated by Neil's neighbor, Mr. Milner. But FF wouldn't be necessary, not for spaniel field trials, because there's not a whole lot of advanced training - for blind retrieves, multiple marks, water work and precision handling on those blinds - required for running spaniel trials. It's bracework and honoring and steadiness - and a retrieve, all of which can be achieved without force fetch. And that's what Cass' breeder was getting it with his remark about a "spaniel not lasting long around his place" if it had to be force fetched. My comment was more about "when" than why, and made vis a vis Jim Spencer's recommendation that force fetch be imparted when a spaniel's 24-28 months old. Particularly if you're a new trainer and force fetching for the first time, that could be disastrous. If you're an experienced trainer, and force fetching a spaniel with the motivation as laid out by Neil, and/or with the idea of running retriever events, where that advanced training is a prerequisite, you would likely be force fetching at a far younger age to begin with.

MG

Thanks for the reply Crackerd. My only interest is in field trialing spaniels - specifically cockers. I have worked with/talked to, four of the best spaniel trialers in the country and I know none of them FF or use e-collars on their dogs. I know nothing about retriever events, thus I couldn't understand why these methods/devices were even associated with spaniels. Thanks for clearing that up. Also, thanks for the tidbit about Jim K., I know some people who will be quite amused at that.

Blackjaw · Post by **Blackjaw** » Wed May 29, 2013 11:48 am

I'd have to agree with Crackerd on the subject of Force Fetch. It is not necessary for running spaniel field trials, but a polished delivery is all part of having a finished dog (IMO) some people accomplish this through place board training and some through 'gentle' FF. Next time you go to a field trial or hunt test, watch the number of people who snatch the birds from their dogs versus those that take the bird when the dog presents it to the handler and then you can decide for yourself if you want to train for a finished delivery.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Wed May 29, 2013 11:49 am

UplandJim wrote:Thanks for clearing that up. Also, thanks for the tidbit about Jim K., I know some people who will be quite amused at that.

LOL yeah it was quite the discovery. Best mistake ever though, I had wanted a male originally but had to settle on a female pup because there wasn't one available lol. Turns out she had a doodle on her hahahaha.