Introduction to horses

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jwnissen
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Introduction to horses

Post by jwnissen » Sat May 04, 2013 2:55 pm

My father in law has a young horse who hasn't been around dogs much. I have a 1 1/2 year old shorthair who has been around horses while at a trainers. I would like to ride the horse and take her out for exercise. How do I get the horse use to the dog so she doesn't kick her or step on her? Is it just time together getting the horse use to the dog or is there more than that? Any and all ideas and suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

John

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Re: Introduction to horses

Post by reba » Sat May 04, 2013 3:36 pm

DON"T DO IT!!!

Bad, bad idea.

I mean really bad idea.

Ride the young horse once a week for a year; then give it a second thought.

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Re: Introduction to horses

Post by roaniecowpony » Sat May 04, 2013 5:04 pm

You're gonna want the horse comfortable with a dog around before you cast a leg over the saddle with a dog around. Do that in a paddock or round pen. I've had horses that didn't care if a dog was around and some that got pretty froggy (hoppy). Put a lead on the horse and dog and have some handle each at the introduction.

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Re: Introduction to horses

Post by jimbo&rooster » Sat May 04, 2013 8:59 pm

Long story short, take your dog around the horse at your FILs place. let the horse get used to seeing the dog and how fast the dog moves. take the dog and the horse out to an open field and go for a ride. if the horse doesn't absolutely come unglued at the sight of the dog at your father in laws place you should be in good shape.

If you can ride at all, and have any control of the horse there shouldnt be any issues. I would however ride the horse a couple of times with out the dog before you take the dog out, not so much because of the horse dog issue but more so to work out any you and horse issues.

We have brough horses home, broke them, and been working dogs off of them in 30days.

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Re: Introduction to horses

Post by roaniecowpony » Sat May 04, 2013 10:52 pm

Just keep in mind the dog is a predator and the horse is prey. Be patient and excercise a bit of caution. Give the horse the same consideration for its new exposures you would your dog.

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Re: Introduction to horses

Post by Neil » Sun May 05, 2013 1:28 am

It depends on both animals. I have had dogs that ignored horses, horses that let dogs climb all over them, to dogs that tried to attack horses and horses that shied from dogs at 100 yards.

You will have to go slow and evaluate, and reevaluate. I would start by taking the horse to a trial or a training session with several horses. And so much depends on how well you can ride.

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Re: Introduction to horses

Post by roaniecowpony » Sun May 05, 2013 5:57 am

Just my thoughts, but the horses first exposure to things is similar to your dog's. You only get one chance for a first impression. That impression will stay with that horse for a long time. Taking a horse to place where there are a lot of dogs is like taking a dog to the gun range. Fine for a well broke one. Not fine for a first exposure.

If you have a dog or someone else's dog that is dead calm around horses, I'd use that dog for the introduction. Have the horse on a leadrope with a handler. Having other horses that are dog broke will keep the new horse comfortable. This has nothing to do with you going 8 seconds on a horse breaking in half. If that happens you just got set back further than when you started.

It will likely take an apprehensive horse multiple exposures before it accepts a dog as not a threat. Make those exposures good ones.

In the words of Hickox, "lets see what happens, is not a plan".

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Re: Introduction to horses

Post by Neil » Sun May 05, 2013 10:35 am

My experiences show a horse is a herd animal, and keys off the other horses, if they are calm, a new horse is likely to be, too. This is not speculation or a guess of what is logical, I have started a couple dozen field trial horses.

Not like taking a dog to a gun range at all.

Again, it really depends on how well the OP can ride.

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Re: Introduction to horses

Post by Sharon » Sun May 05, 2013 10:36 am

roaniecowpony wrote: .......................In the words of Hickox, "lets see what happens, is not a plan".
I hadn't heard that before. I love it!! :D
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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Re: Introduction to horses

Post by RayGubernat » Sun May 05, 2013 4:00 pm

I am no horse trainer, by any means, but I have to agree with Neil on this one. However I would stack the deck in the horse' s favor.

If you go to a trial on the afternoon of the second day, the horse will be around a bunch of pretty mellowed out horses. Riding a few braces will tend to allow some of that mellow to rub off on yours. Near the end of the day ask some one if you can tie up your horse next to theirs and explain that you want to intro the horse to the dog. If there is a pro at the trial, thye might be the best one to ask. More often than not, their horses are the most tired and most bulletproof.

Anyway, with the horses tied, you can bring the dog by the other horses first and then by yours. If the first couple of horses have no reaction, yours will probably be accepting of the situation also. Use caution, of course, but DO NOT be afraid or show fear in any way. Horse, like dogs can smell fear...only better I think.

I do agree that first impressions for a horse seem to be HUGE, especially if they are negative impressions, so be careful and proceed calmly, slowly and purposefully.

RayG

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Re: Introduction to horses

Post by Neil » Sun May 05, 2013 5:34 pm

Ray is giving good advice, much more detailed and complete than mine.

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Re: Introduction to horses

Post by roaniecowpony » Mon May 06, 2013 4:56 am

Well John, you have everything from 'don't do it' to ride the horse at a dog trial. You said the horse was young. I hope you meant it was old enough for its knees to have knit no matter what path you take. Good luck

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Re: Introduction to horses

Post by tn red » Mon May 06, 2013 9:05 pm

Put the dog on the ground get on the horse & go with the dog. If a dog even a pup stays close enough to get hurt ....well :lol:

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Re: Introduction to horses

Post by Neil » Tue May 07, 2013 11:01 am

tn red wrote:Put the dog on the ground get on the horse & go with the dog. If a dog even a pup stays close enough to get hurt ....well :lol:
You have a lot to learn about dogs and compassion.

Young dogs do a lot of dumb things (like jump up on a horse) that grow to be good hunters.

And some of us love them all, dumb and smart.

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Re: Introduction to horses

Post by jimbo&rooster » Tue May 07, 2013 6:06 pm

Neil wrote:
tn red wrote:Put the dog on the ground get on the horse & go with the dog. If a dog even a pup stays close enough to get hurt ....well :lol:
You have a lot to learn about dogs and compassion.

Young dogs do a lot of dumb things (like jump up on a horse) that grow to be good hunters.

And some of us love them all, dumb and smart.
Bud...... I would guess that Red has started more dog horses than any of us put together....... that yellow dot with an upward curving line tends to indicate humor.

Jim.
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Re: Introduction to horses

Post by Neil » Tue May 07, 2013 7:22 pm

Unless he expands on his response, I will stick with my interpretation of the humor being the dog getting hurt. It is what he wrote. So if has anything of value to add he failed to do it.

Neil

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Re: Introduction to horses

Post by tn red » Tue May 07, 2013 7:42 pm

Neil wrote:
tn red wrote:Put the dog on the ground get on the horse & go with the dog. If a dog even a pup stays close enough to get hurt ....well :lol:
You have a lot to learn about dogs and compassion.

Young dogs do a lot of dumb things (like jump up on a horse) that grow to be good hunters.

And some of us love them all, dumb and smart.
Absolutely i have ALOT to learn...So tell me how you break a horse that kicks at dogs? Im sure of one thing runnin a dog up under an unmounted horse will cause a lot more greif than putting the dog on the ground and following the dog. A horse that kicks will always kick at some point unless you know a way to take that fight inscinct out of them,ive never saw it done.Also if the dog stays under a horse you really just wasting the horses time :lol: :lol: .Also no way to bubble wrap a pup stuff happens i just see it as you shouldnt ask for it.

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Introduction to horses

Post by cmc274 » Tue May 07, 2013 8:16 pm

Not helpful, but reminded me of the story below. The disappearing to the front thing on the prairie is the best part of it. Excerpt from 'Down a Dusty Country Road' by Robert Frank published in the December 28th Field.

“It was when Cherokee Jake attacked my horse!” Mr. Eaton had no doubt which story he was going to tell. “The first time Cherokee Jake was turned out on the prairie was also the first time he had been around a horse. He must have thought that the horse was some sort of a bad monster that was going to hurt me as he was hitting him in the back legs and thighs and was making the blood fly. It took me awhile to get the horse calmed down as it went to kicking and bucking. I finally got off him and was lucky not to get hurt. When everything calmed down I had one of the helpers walk beside the horse with the dog, and I could see that he realized that the horses were just a part of the program. I turned him loose, and he went to attacking cattle just like he was attacking the horse. We caught him again, and I had a helper lead him through the cattle for about thirty minutes. He never had a problem with a cow or horse again.

“After this we turned him loose on the prairie and he went straight to the front. He disappeared over a rise in the prairie. When we caught up with him he was locked up on point and I flushed two chickens in front of him. He was broke steady to wing and shot after that.”

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Re: Introduction to horses

Post by roaniecowpony » Tue May 07, 2013 11:06 pm

tn red wrote:
Neil wrote:
tn red wrote:Put the dog on the ground get on the horse & go with the dog. If a dog even a pup stays close enough to get hurt ....well :lol:
You have a lot to learn about dogs and compassion.

Young dogs do a lot of dumb things (like jump up on a horse) that grow to be good hunters.

And some of us love them all, dumb and smart.
Absolutely i have ALOT to learn...So tell me how you break a horse that kicks at dogs? Im sure of one thing runnin a dog up under an unmounted horse will cause a lot more greif than putting the dog on the ground and following the dog. A horse that kicks will always kick at some point unless you know a way to take that fight inscinct out of them,ive never saw it done.Also if the dog stays under a horse you really just wasting the horses time :lol: :lol: .Also no way to bubble wrap a pup stuff happens i just see it as you shouldnt ask for it.
Just my 2 £ but I'd work on breaking the dog from getting on, underneath, or behind a horse. The horse will become comfortable from multiple exposures of non-threatening experiences.

But even a horse with years of experience and comfortable behavior around dogs would likely never again trust a dog if one jumped up and chomped its throat. I can tell you that from firsthand knowledge, having seen a dog hanging from a horses throat and being flung about as the horse exploded. At the time I had no use for a dog and would have shot that dog if I'd have had a gun.

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Re: Introduction to horses

Post by Neil » Wed May 08, 2013 12:40 am

There are a number of ways to train a horse not to kick, as there are ways to train a dog to accept horses and not get under them. But neither are the case with the OP, he just wanted to know how to introduce each to the other. Unlike others, he seems to wants to avoid injury to dog, horse and himself. It can be done, there is no need to leave it to chance without concern.

Neil

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Re: Introduction to horses

Post by tn red » Wed May 08, 2013 7:28 am

Neil wrote:There are a number of ways to train a horse not to kick, as there are ways to train a dog to accept horses and not get under them. But neither are the case with the OP, he just wanted to know how to introduce each to the other. Unlike others, he seems to wants to avoid injury to dog, horse and himself. It can be done, there is no need to leave it to chance without concern.

Neil
Best way i know is put the dog on the ground and go with the dog.1The horse sees the dog as no threat while it is out front running the op said his dog was use to horses at his trainers.2 You have alot more control on the horses back or should anyway.3 leading a dog on a lead or check cord around a green field trial horse adds a another danger of getting dog& horse tangled up.4 just because the horse saw other horses not act up means nothing horses are not monkey see monkey do.5 with a loose dog & you mounted you can steer the horse in another direction if the dogs comes in too close( keep the horse busy he will think alot less about what the dog is doing or that its even there.)These thoughts are just that my thoughts & in no way said to get ANYTHING hurt. IF a horse likes to kick or stomp a dog to start with imo you are doing nobody a favor by taking it around anybody elses dogs at some point it will kick another dog. Also anybody that can break one from kicking i will gladly give you several a year i have no use for them nor will lie about them kicking even if they only do it every blue moon it may not be my dog they stomp next.IM NOT TRYING TO GET ANYBODY HURT im just trying to get you to see it through the horses eyes & not set them up for failure.

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Re: Introduction to horses

Post by RayGubernat » Wed May 08, 2013 8:48 am

The following is a short story and the sum total of my experience with getting dogs and horses used to one another.

I bought a 4 1/2 year old TW gelding as a second horse. The horse was basically a trail horse but seemed fairly calm. I had the seller put their dog on a lead near the horse and he pretty much ignored the dog. He also pretty much tolerated it when a rope was draped and pulled across his front.
So I bought him and brought him home.

I found out, fairly quickly, that Rudy was not at all tolerant of things coming up from behind him...especially 4 wheelers. He would kick out...among other things.

Anyhow, I started to desensitize him by exposing him to a very experienced and obedient dog that I kept at heel in the pasture. The other horse would come over, nuzzle the dog and get treats. Rudy is incredibly inquisitive and is also a treat hog(still is). So, eventually, he started coming over and getting treats with the dog there. When he started to ignore the dog, I took him out and ran the dog in front of the horse. Eventually, I put the dog in harness and roaded the dog on foot while leading the horse. After doing all these things a few times, and getting acceptance from Rudy(the treats were still in my pocket and were dispensed fairly liberally during this process), I got on board, and roaded the dog while holding the rope.

All during this time, there were isolated instances with my dogs and a few with other dogs, where Rudy sort of stuck out a foot when a dog got too close, while I was riding. He did not aggressively kick out, because he would telegraph his unease and I would start to rein him in beforehand. I would stop him and caution him and settle him, then praise, rub his neck, massage his poll and move on. The isolated instances got fewer and fewer over time.

Fast forward a few years. I can road multiple dogs off Rudy. He will chase down a dog and turn it like a steer. I think he actually enjoys that....I know he absolutely LOVES to go flat out, but he is SCARY fast so I don't let him out too awful often.

Fast forward to today(10 years). I can bring a dog into his stall in the barn, while I am feeding him and have the dog jump up on me and then put the dog's paws on Rudy and he just looks back and then goes back to eating. If it is a puppy and it goes in between his legs, he does not react but I am RIGHT THERE and he knows what I expect of him.

He still will start stutter stepping when a horse and rider or a dog starts coming up from the rear, especially when he is fresh out of the box., but if I get on him about it, he knocks it off. After an hour or so he is much more tolerant. He STILL gets stupid around 4 wheelers, just about every time, but if I insist and MAKE him settle...he will...sort of. He listens, but he ain't likin' it.

Bottom line is I got him to trust me first and then to trust the dog. It took time, and patience and repetitions...and a good 'ol dog that was pretty bulletproof. He ain't perfect, but then I ain't no kind of horse trainer. So far so good.

RayG

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Re: Introduction to horses

Post by roaniecowpony » Wed May 08, 2013 11:22 am

Ray,
I think we're on the same page. It just took a lot of computer typing to figure it out. :D

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Re: Introduction to horses

Post by Neil » Wed May 08, 2013 3:19 pm

tn red wrote:Put the dog on the ground get on the horse & go with the dog. If a dog even a pup stays close enough to get hurt ....well :lol:
Until you started backtracking, I don't recall anyone speaking of a kicking horse or attacking dogs in this case. It was only about introductions.

The above quote is callous, and you cannot excuse it by now making up extreme situations.

And even a kicking horse could be trained to bow to a dog and let it climb up its neck to its back.

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Re: Introduction to horses

Post by tn red » Wed May 08, 2013 4:23 pm

Neil wrote:
tn red wrote:Put the dog on the ground get on the horse & go with the dog. If a dog even a pup stays close enough to get hurt ....well :lol:
Until you started backtracking, I don't recall anyone speaking of a kicking horse or attacking dogs in this case. It was only about introductions.

The above quote is callous, and you cannot excuse it by now making up extreme situations.

And even a kicking horse could be trained to bow to a dog and let it climb up its neck to its back.
Ok i tried ...Take the horse to a trial a try him out on other peoples dogs & horses.What is going to happen if a young dog comes through the gallery? Give me a break,i would never take a horse to trial before i run MY OWN DOGS in front & behind them..thats just common sense! As far as the breaking down to let you do anything you can have all of that you want i leave that to mule skinners, not for me read Rays post.....10 years later & he can control ( head it off) horse still would kick 10 yrs later!! I guess its calous but thats real life with dogs & horses i will never backtrack tho i still say put a dog on the ground & follow!That is what i get for sayin anything on the WWW also the very reason most people that train dogs want post on here..too many know it alls that think their way is the only way when in fact they know just enough to get somebody hurt.

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Re: Introduction to horses

Post by cjuve » Wed May 08, 2013 5:23 pm

Personally I would not take a horse like that to a trial for a first exposure I have had dogs jump up on horses at trials. The best thing that you could probably do if you are not an experienced horseman is go get yoursef a field trial horse, one that has been there and done it before. If you do decide to use the horse you have I would spend sometime getting to know the horse before bringing a dog into the mix. When and only when I was comfortable with the horse and he knows to pay attention to you would I bring the dog into the picture.

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Re: Introduction to horses

Post by Neil » Wed May 08, 2013 6:49 pm

tn red wrote:Put the dog on the ground get on the horse & go with the dog. If a dog even a pup stays close enough to get hurt ....well :lol:
Your first post on the thread is above, it is still inappropriate. Not just unhelpful, but harmful.

And now you take the role of missunderstood expert.

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Re: Introduction to horses

Post by tn red » Wed May 08, 2013 6:59 pm

Neil wrote:
tn red wrote:Put the dog on the ground get on the horse & go with the dog. If a dog even a pup stays close enough to get hurt ....well :lol:
Your first post on the thread is above, it is still inappropriate. Not just unhelpful, but harmful.

And now you take the role of missunderstood expert.
Show me where its harmful? If his dog my dog or your dog gets too close to a horse that has never been around a dog it can happen . I still say telling him to go to a trial & see what happens is some of the most harmful advice ive ever heard. Had you rather find out the hard way ? that way dont come with the little :lol: faces.Also all the personal jabs at me are doing what ?

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Re: Introduction to horses

Post by Neil » Wed May 08, 2013 8:24 pm

You are beyond understanding.

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Re: Introduction to horses

Post by jimbo&rooster » Fri May 10, 2013 9:01 am

I can't tell if y'all are scared to death of horses, or if you are just overly careful. The OP is basically wanting to take his dog for walks from horse back. His dog knows the game, why make it any more difficult than it needs to be?

Jim
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Re: Introduction to horses

Post by tn red » Fri May 10, 2013 4:20 pm

jimbo&rooster wrote:I can't tell if y'all are scared to death of horses, or if you are just overly careful. The OP is basically wanting to take his dog for walks from horse back. His dog knows the game, why make it any more difficult than it needs to be?

Jim
^^^^^common sense^^^^^^ :twisted:

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Re: Introduction to horses

Post by RayGubernat » Fri May 10, 2013 4:38 pm

tn red wrote:
jimbo&rooster wrote:I can't tell if y'all are scared to death of horses, or if you are just overly careful. The OP is basically wanting to take his dog for walks from horse back. His dog knows the game, why make it any more difficult than it needs to be?

Jim
^^^^^common sense^^^^^^ :twisted:

Guys -

I have been a personal witness to a dog getting kicked in the head by a horse. It happened in the blink of an eye and if not for the immediate intervention of Dr. Roger Boser who was right there, the dog would not have made it. I saw the dog kicking spasmodically and honestly thought it was already dead but Roger brought the dog back. It was w=one of the Smith setters, which is to say, about as good as they get.

As an aside, that same horse, some months prior, had kicked and killed the setter champion Smoke Screen. that was probably one of the greatest losses to the setter breed in the last twenty or thirty years. If I were the owner of Smoke Screen I would have bought that horse and took great pleasure in putting a bullet in its head.

So, yeah, I might be a little overly cautious when it comes to dogs and horses...so sue me.

The older I get and the more stupid sh!t I see... the more I am convinced that common sense... just ain't all that common.

I think the OP has all the information they need on the subject.

RayG

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Re: Introduction to horses

Post by jwnissen » Sat May 11, 2013 10:35 pm

Thank you all for your advice and practices. It sounds like the general census is to introduce both gradually so that is what I am going to do. Again thanks for your help.

John

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Re: Introduction to horses

Post by Sniff1170 » Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:27 pm

cmc274 wrote:Not helpful, but reminded me of the story below. The disappearing to the front thing on the prairie is the best part of it. Excerpt from 'Down a Dusty Country Road' by Robert Frank published in the December 28th Field.

“It was when Cherokee Jake attacked my horse!” Mr. Eaton had no doubt which story he was going to tell. “The first time Cherokee Jake was turned out on the prairie was also the first time he had been around a horse. He must have thought that the horse was some sort of a bad monster that was going to hurt me as he was hitting him in the back legs and thighs and was making the blood fly. It took me awhile to get the horse calmed down as it went to kicking and bucking. I finally got off him and was lucky not to get hurt. When everything calmed down I had one of the helpers walk beside the horse with the dog, and I could see that he realized that the horses were just a part of the program. I turned him loose, and he went to attacking cattle just like he was attacking the horse. We caught him again, and I had a helper lead him through the cattle for about thirty minutes. He never had a problem with a cow or horse again.

“After this we turned him loose on the prairie and he went straight to the front. He disappeared over a rise in the prairie. When we caught up with him he was locked up on point and I flushed two chickens in front of him. He was broke steady to wing and shot after that.”

I'm really glad you you quoted my article here. Mr. Eaton loved telling this story almost as much as the story about White Knight at the motel room. Robert Franks

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