puppy training flusher vs. pointer

[odie]

Are there any big differences in the puppy training steps for a pointer compared to a flusher (black lab)?

All my previous dogs have been labs but I fell in love with GSP's over the last couple of years while hunting over my cousins dog. So I am getting a GSP pup in a couple weeks. choice of 1 of the 3 in my avatar.

I thought basic puppy training would be the same, but something was said in one of the perfect finish videos I was watching that has caused me to second guess myself. Basically, it had to do with having the dog sit when it came to you. Good for labs, but not for pointers and was causing issues with one of the dogs they were training. I think it was whoa training.

So I am a little uneasy about what I would normally do may hinder training the pup down the road.

If anyone can provide their opinion or refer to some pointer pup books, it would be greatly appreciated.

Wes

[snips]

For pointing dogs the book, Best Way to Train Your Birddog, by Bill Tarrant, talked about in another thread is as good as it gets. You are right in not teaching sit. (I like the one with the saddle.)

[Margaret]

I certainly can't speak for the field trialling, but if you are not wanting to compete but have an enjoyable hunting companion, then there is every reason why your pup should learn basic obedience.

In my country our dogs are taught to sit and they do not ever sit on point in hunting situations. We also have them flush on command, but then most places we hunt it is heavy prickly cover and we need to get back from the cover to get a shot at the bird. Of course we make sure they are steady to point before we do the flush on command, but in fact the dogs seem to pick this up anyway once they have a seasons hunting under their belt and understand wild birds. I expect you could have a problem with released birds because canny dogs can tell by their scent that there is something not right with the bird and do things that we think are mistakes, but the dog no doubt thinks otherwise. And truth be told the dog is right.
The most important thing of course is the dog doesn't chase the bird, but then again a dog hunted on wild game can tell much easier than we if a bird had been touched by a pellet or two and will want to go after them to retrieve, which is different to actually chasing.

Whatever you do, however you train, the main thing is both you and the dog get enjoyment from doing it together.

Sorry for rabbiting on ....

[tradhuntr]

i have trained my GSP to sit and i have never had any issues in the field. just when teaching whoa don't relat it to sit. when i am hunting i don't tell him to sit only when we are stoped and not in any cover wile at heel. not anyother time. i guess if you want him to sit you can teach him to. train your dog the way you want to. i wouldn't worrie about it.

[snips]

It seems the majority of dogs lately I get in to train are taught to sit. It generally does not show up in the field tho. Altho I have 1 now that about every time you give a little Whoa on point, down she plops. If you are going to higher levels of training, like steady to wing and shot and it takes more pressure to achieve steadiness, than the sit may show up. I have a 10x NSTRA CH that is 15 now, he never knew sit and lives in the house full time. Not a problem. It it up to you, keep in mind that you never know the personality of each dog and how much they want to please.

[ezzy333]

It seems funny to me that everytime the subject of sit comes up we always have this same discussion. We have people on the board that have trained dogs for years and have hundreds under their belt and they all say the same thing, DO NOT TRAIN SIT. They even give the reasons they don't and relay the experiences they have had. And everyone of them go on to say it won't show up in every dog but it does quite often. Then we have people who have trained a dog or two say they teach it and there is no problem. So who to believe?

I don't think it takes rocket science to make the discision to not take the chance but still the people who haven't had a problem insist it is OK. Why? Can't we learn from someone who is much more experienced than most, or is it important to give a newcomer some personal advise, even if it's wrong?

To set the matter straight lets list what we know:

1. Sit will not adversely affect every dog in their future training.

2. Sit will adversely affect some dogs in their future training.

3. Jumping off of a 20 ft roof may adversely affect the rest of your life.

4. Jumping off of a 20 ft. roof may not adversely affect the rest of your life.

5. Those of you that are willing to jump off the roof , even if it may affect you forever, should train your dogs to sit since it really doen't make a difference to you if something simple may affect you and your dog for the rest of your lives.

6. Look back and make a note that in all cases the word MAY has been used since many times there is no effect that comes to light in the future training of your dog.

7. The fact that I or anyone else have trained our dogs to sit and had no adverse reaction does not give us sufficent reason to tell people that they can teach it to their dogs and not have a problem since it has been well documented over and over it can cause a problem in the future of you and your dog.

So the next time it comes up why don't we all just agree to say that it may cause problems and probably is not the thing to do whether each of us personally have or have not experienced the problem.

Ezzy

[Sorno]

I have only trained a couple of dogs in my life but what would be the #1 reason not to train your dog to sit?

[snips]

Ezzy Sorno, I think I covered it in my post. When you ask a dog to Whoa, he may sit instead. They want to please you, and you have praised them for sitting, so they do not diffrenciate between Whoa and sit. Wala, dog MAY sit on point. If you train dogs to point-flush as Margaret does it would not be a problem, but we want dogs to remain standing while we flush, and many times to remain while the shot goes off. If it takes any pressure to do this, the dog may get confused, so why train something that my confuse him on his birds. I have no problem with training pointing dogs sit after his bird training is in place. Terry Chandler posted on the GSP board about things to do before you bring a dog for training #1 was "do not teach sit".

[gr_elliott]

I am training my first gundog. I had no plans of training sit, then after one of the many threads about "sit", I decided that I was going to train it, after all I am not doing any field trials or anything like that. He was to be a companion and hunting dog for the other half of the year.

When on walks and just around the house I whoa him, no pressure, just letting him know that whoa means freeze. After I started doing sit, he quit stopping and started sitting when I said whoa.....after that, no more sit, I should of listened to the more experienced folk.

[pdiddy]

I have enjoyed the Richard Wolters books/videos (by chuck jurney). I am a meat hunter and family dog kind of guy - if you want field trial performance, I have heard that other approaches are better. The gun dog DVD was helpful for me making the transition from lab to setter/pointer training. I am still in the research stage for my next dog but I feel that the pointer training covered in Gun Dog, especially the DVD was very helpful for conceptualizing exactly what you want to accomplish in pointer training.

I ordered my resources from Amazon.com but this site can show you Wolter's products: http://www.familydogs.com/index.asp

j ><>

[Margaret]

Really Ezzy. To compare teaching a dog to sit to jumping off a 20ft cliff.


No offence to anyone on this board, but how in fact do we know that many of the interned writers who brag about training hundreds of dogs in fact have done? How do we even know they are reasonable trainers?
Surely even an average trainer would change what they were doing a little if the dog sat.
If a dog comes in for training and has been taught to sit, and then is begun teaching to stand to "whoa" don't you think it a normal thing for the dog to confuse the two and sit until it understands whoa is a different behaviour?

And neither have anything to do with pointing. If you have to say "whoa" to a dog to get a point of a bird, there's a problem. And it isn't
sit.

So lets go one step further. The dog has found and pointed a bird.
The bird has been flushed and the dog then sits to flush.
What would be the problem?

I'd even go so far as to say the dog could drop to flush, but then that has it's own little problem in that you need the dog to watch the bird if the bird is hit.

Personally I feel the main things you need in a hunting dog are; come to call, stop from chasing (whoa), walk beside you when needed, diligence in retrieving. All assuming the dog hunts of course.
People on these lists seem to spend all their time discussing pointing and very little on ways to set up training scenarios to improve their dogs ability to retrieve shot and wounded game.


So I suggest to the original question asker to do a little on the staunch on point training, stop the dog chasing once it's keen, and try and set up little situations that you think your dog might encounter on an actual hunt so it has the experience and determination to find and retrieved downed birds to you.
I get the biggest kick when my dog retrieves a bird I didn't know I'd hit.
It certainly pays to spend time in an area you've been shooting, particularly quail, as wounded birds can often fly and then be overcome and your dog can recover them.

I have to go help with a fund raising sausage sizzle, so I'll have to leave this topic now.

[odie]

Thanks for everyones input thus far. I guess I forgot to mention what my expectations will be from the pup.

1st and foremost - hunting. I agree that for the reason of hunting alone would beg to question who really cares if the dog sits as long as he/she finds birds. For this alone I could really care less if the dog even pointed. BUT, if I am hunting with other people with pointers, then I want something extra. which I look at as 'the basics" for a pointing breed.

2nd - Possible hunt tests, hunting tournies, trials what have you - I like the possibilty that I might try something in the future. Have never done any. And this is where my questions are coming from. for this I want to know those little things that I probably would have done for a lab that could intefere with training for this level. And is why I have invested a lot of money in pointer specific books/DVD's

3rd - companion - This pup will be a close companion for sure, but for just this reason alone I would have gotten a cat instead. A lot easier on my pocket book

So in summary, I am looking for advice for #2

[ezzy333]

Margeret,

We know because we know the people, their dogs, and their kennels. The product they have turned out, the people they have helped, and their reputation is good enough for me and should be for you. Come and visit if you can't take our word for it. I'm sure you see some of the best dogs that you have ever seen perform. Not all of the dogs but many of them.

Sorry about the 20 ft roof thing. I started to say 25 ft but thought that may be too high. Just trying to say when you have found out beyond a doubt that there can be problems most thinking people don't do it but take the word of the evidence from people who have seen it. Maybe we should call it higher education.

The rest of your post prove the point that a dog might confuse the commands. That in it self is a good reason not to do it. But the greater problem is the dog sits when there is pressure applied in training. And not when the dog is pointing. That is an inherited trait. Its more apt to happen when you are teaching the dog to be steady or back. I have one here right now that doesn't handle pressure well. I should take some video so you can see what happens. Maybe that would help.

Hope the sizzling sausage turns out well.

Ezzy

[Margaret]

Thank you Ezzy.

The sausage sizzle was a success. We ran out twice and had to go buy some more. Only 3 of us turned up so it was full on most of the 6 hrs.
We offered brown or white bread with the sausages, and most people took brown (a bit of useless information). I came home smelling of sausages and onions, my tops are awaiting a hand wash tomorrow.
The dogs thought I smelt delicious

The thought of a BBQ just turns me off right now

[GsPJustin]

Ok, I havent trained thousands of dogs. I cant really tell you why it is the best idea to not or to train your dog something.

However, I can tell you this. If you teach sit and just use it for sit, you SHOULD, MIGHT, MAY be ok. If you teach sit, and make your dog sit: for a treat, before you do somthing, when he meets someone, WHEN HE DOES SOMTHING WRONG. Then it probly wont work as well.

When I help train the dogs that pass through my trainer. The dogs that were taught to sit when they do somthing wrong, as soon as the collar hits them, they go butts to the floor. Now I cant tell you that the reason is because they were taught to sit. I have been lucky enough that my dog knows sit and he doesnt in the field.

I would just recommend not doing it until hes done with some collar work.

[ezzy333]

Justin, is your dog broke yet?

Ezzy

[Margaret]

Ahhh. So it's as I suspected. Training issue.

[Wagonmaster]

The gun dog DVD was helpful for me making the transition from lab to setter/pointer training. I am still in the research stage for my next dog but I feel that the pointer training covered in Gun Dog, especially the DVD was very helpful for conceptualizing exactly what you want to accomplish in pointer training.

diddy, i have read your few posts and see you are new to pointers. Richard Wolters book is not very good. Training a pointer for hunting or for anything else means taking it through a step-by-step process, no shortcuts. Wolters recommendation to teach a dog "Whoa!" by jumping at it and scaring it out of its wits, is a shortcut, just to take one example from his book. If that does not work, or if it causes the dog to sit back on you, then what?? And what is the effect on the dog's style, of being frightened into doing something as a pup.

Pick a book that is more thorough, thoughful, and trains dogs positively. My favorite is Delmar Smith's even though techniques have improved since he wrote it. But it at least lays out a step-by-step development program. Also try Hunt Close!, Frank Robinson, Wing & Shot, Robert Wehle, Paul Long's book don't remember the title. They will all teach you a heck of a lot more than Wolters stuff ever will. And I don't think you will find anything about ecollars in any of them. These were all old style rope-and-collar type trainers.