Introducing gunfire without any fancy gear

FirearmFan · Post by **FirearmFan** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:18 pm

I don't have a blank starter pistol or any gear for introducing the gun to a dog. So what's the best way to do this without spending a ton of money? Obviously getting the dog bird crazy is the first step. Can I skip the blank pistol and just work from even further distances away? Or is there an inexpensive option for a blank pistol? I don't want to spend a few hundred bucks if I don't have to but I definitely don't want a gun shy dog just because I was too cheap to do it right. I'm interested to hear everyone's thoughts.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:33 pm

If it is close to the dog bangs you want, try using Party Poppers after removing the streamers. I sometimes use them in public parks and have yet to have anyone complain. They are useless for longer distance bangs however.

Bill T.

Xhipi1 · Post by **Xhipi1** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:42 pm

I introduced my dog to gun fire using a .410 then moved up to a 20 and then finally a 12 gauge. The reason for using these gauges is just due to my availability to them. What I did was had a friend stand at a far distance and i played fetch with my dog. as the dumper started to drop from the air he fired a shot and i just observed what the dog did. if the dog didnt react to the shot i had him move in closer and closer. just be careful and work at a Far distance and go slow dont go to fast and dont jump from .410 to 12 gauge in one day. just observe what the dog does and keep it fun for them. I am no pro by any means this is something that worked for me.

maximus1 · Post by **maximus1** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:48 pm

You can buy a starter pistol at most sporting goods stotes pretty cheap. I bought one at Bass Pro that shoots a primer load or crimps for around 50 bucks. Works good enough for me just have to clean it regularly.

rinker · Post by **rinker** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:40 pm

Get two pieces of 2 x 4 boards about a foot long, and bang them together.

deseeker · Post by **deseeker** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:45 pm

Knock the primers out of empty shotshells and replace them with live shotshell primers--- you now have a 209 primer long gun---not real handy like a blank pistol, but it will be the same volumn as a 209 primer pistol

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:55 pm

I have never used anything but a shot gun and have never had a problem.

Ezzy

big_fish · Post by **big_fish** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:59 pm

gun dog supply has them for $24.95 up to $289.95 (don't know what the difference is) and you can get crimps there also or go to lowes or home depot and buy them there as the light loads for concrete nailers or any sporting goods store.

FirearmFan · Post by **FirearmFan** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:04 pm

ezzy333 wrote:I have never used anything but a shot gun and have never had a problem.

Ezzy

Ezzy,
If you don't mind me asking, what methods or approach do you use? Can you give me a step by step on how you intro a gun to a dog only using the shotgun?

FirearmFan · Post by **FirearmFan** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:07 pm

maximus1 wrote:You can buy a starter pistol at most sporting goods stotes pretty cheap. I bought one at Bass Pro that shoots a primer load or crimps for around 50 bucks. Works good enough for me just have to clean it regularly.

If I can get one for under $50 bucks that's not so bad. Most of the ones I've seen are like $200 and that seems like a lot of money for something I won't use very much.

I know people say its easy but the gun intro is probably the area of gun dog training I'm most nervous about as I don't want to mess it up.

MillerClemsonHD · Post by **MillerClemsonHD** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:45 pm

FirearmFan wrote:
maximus1 wrote:You can buy a starter pistol at most sporting goods stotes pretty cheap. I bought one at Bass Pro that shoots a primer load or crimps for around 50 bucks. Works good enough for me just have to clean it regularly.

If I can get one for under $50 bucks that's not so bad. Most of the ones I've seen are like $200 and that seems like a lot of money for something I won't use very much.

I know people say its easy but the gun intro is probably the area of gun dog training I'm most nervous about as I don't want to mess it up.

If your not comfortable doing it your better off finding some help. Find a pro near you, navhda chapter, someone on this board with experience. This is the one thing you don't want to screw up unless your willing to pay to get it fixed.

There are more options for a blank pistol and they are used more than just 1 time to intro the gun.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:59 pm

The absolute safest way to introduce a pup to gunfire, and one of the best, IMO, is to fir a shot into the air with the muzzle facing away from the dog...when the pup is in full out chase of a bird.

I use pigeons in an open field for this. No fancy gear, just toss the bird into the air and when the pup is running after the bird at say, 75 yards, fire one shot and see what happens.

RayG

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:51 pm

Exactly and do that again tomorrow only closer. Usually by day 3 or 4 I can shoot over the pup and that is when I introduce birds , knock one down for the pup and it will connect the gunshot with birds for the rest of its life. And on the off chance it did have problems with the gun it won't associate it with birds which is important. But I have never had a problem in the many years we have been training pups.

Ezzy

DoubleBarrel GunDogs · Post by **DoubleBarrel GunDogs** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:39 pm

I begin by using a .209 primer pistol. You can purchase a good one for under $75. Stay away from the really cheap pistols. If you plan to steady the dog to wing and shot someday, a good pistol is a very good investment. Particularly if you don't always have an assistant to fire a shotgun.

After the dog is aggressively chasing birds and you have built sufficient prey drive, you can introduce the gun. Have at least 3 clip wing pigeons in a bird bag, and have your assistant stand 100 yards away. Toss the bird out and raise your arm to signal your assistant to fire a shot, once the dog is close to the bird. Watch the dog, and if he shows no sign of distraction from the bird, signal your assistant to move to 75 yards. Repeat the drill at 75, 50 and 25 yards. If all is good, and the dog pays no attention to the shot, put the dog up. The next session should be repeated with the pistol at a distance of 25 yards and closer. Repeat the entire process with a .410 or 28 ga., if you have one. Repeat again with a 20 ga. and a 12 ga. Intro to the gun shouldn't be rushed, and always watch the dog for reaction to the shot. Do the intro to the gun right and you'll never have a gun problem. Gun shy dogs are created, and there are no good excuses for it.
Obviously there are various ways to introduce the gun, but this process works extremely well.

Another good investment is 12 ga. poppers. These are empty open end crimped shells with a .209 primer. Contact a local HRC, and you can usually purchase them for far less than standard field loads. They are very low volume, and are great for use in line steadying, launcher, and marking drills.

Good luck,
Nate

coach571 · Post by **coach571** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:58 pm

Traditions has reconditioned 209 primer pistol around 39 bucks just have to pull hammer each time you fire not very good with double action works great for sound conditioning.

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:50 pm

You can take cheap shotgun shells and cut them at about 3/4" with a knife. Dump the shot and powder leaving just the base and primer. There's your primer gun. If you reload, you have the tools to make primed hulls to use .

S&J gsp · Post by **S&J gsp** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:55 am

I've used Ezzy's way for a long time an important point of that way is make sure you kill that first bird

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:00 am

I gun break puppies young, before I had a blank pistol I would get pup excited about a frozen pigeon then have a helper stand a good distance away toss the bird for the pup to chase and have your helper shoot AWAY from the pup. Slowly moving closer over several days.

Also always be mindful of you muzzle blast when you do start killing birds for your dog.

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:00 am

I like the idea of a clipped wing for the first bird shot. It comes down every time and you can control the noise with a blank gun. Does that get the same result? Or does the bird need to be dead?

FirearmFan · Post by **FirearmFan** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:31 am

Thanks for all the good info everyone. It looks like I have plenty of options. My breeder (who also trains gun dogs) has said he will spend some time with the dog and myself to give some tips and advice on the gun and bird intro as well.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:00 am

If you use a shotgun hull and primer, drill out the primer pocket to 1/4" and you can change primers anywhere, they slip in and out. I have a very nice blank gun, don't use it for gun intro. For intro I use a 22 rimfire rifle. Let the pup get interested in most anything and fire a shot into the ground. Have the muzzle about 3" off the ground when you do it, really muffles the sound well. No matter what the pup does, you keep going and ignore the pup, do not comfort it if it's afraid. If it is afraid, don't fire another shot very soon but keep walking. Only after I'm certain the pup is alright do I go to a blank gun and birds. Start with the pup chasing and the gun behind your back, mutes the sound some. I've never had a dog come up gun shy and in my opinion, you almost have to try to make one guy shy. Use some common sense, the point is not to scare the cr*p out of the pup nor to see just how much noise it can take without folding.

hill · Post by **hill** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:27 am

I use a .22 rifle to start with. After the pup played with the pigeons a few times I get one out and card him. While pup is playing with the pigeon I'm shooting the .22 in the distance. If pup stops playing with the bird to see what the noise was, I back off a little. I keep moving closer to the pup and eventually he will notice the noise but won't pay it much attention. After that I start over again with a shotgun. I have been fortunate and never had a pup that had any issues with gun fire. Good luck.

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:53 am

Of course anyone with any handgun, especially a revolver can load primer only cases in centerfire calibers or use .22 crimps (blanks) in a real .22 revolver or singleshot rifle. I would just find it a bit more risky and muzzle control as well as strict discipline on carrying only blanks to the field would be a must.

I have two blank guns and would not be without one.

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:15 am

I start very young dogs out with a kid's cap pistol while I am playing bird games with the pup. I transition to the primer only shotshell like someone else suggested and finally to live rounds. I use a live bird when I go to the primer but it is a clipped wing bird so it wont' get away. I try to time my shot with the moment the bird starts to lose altitude. I do mix in a full-flight bird or two that I throw but do not simulate a shot. The thought there is that pup chases but will obviously never catch and further understands that gunfire equals feathers in the mouth. When I go live rounds, I also try to kill the first couple of birds I shoot. The whole program is pretty much fool-proof.

Kmack · Post by **Kmack** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:51 pm

If you have either a .22 handgun or rifle, you can fire blanks with it. The only thing you get from a blank gun is that it's legal in field trials. I used an old .22 with blanks for years until I started to field trial and had to get a plugged barrel gun.

SpringerDude · Post by **SpringerDude** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:15 pm

Plenty of good suggestions here.

Speaking of common sense, think of it this way.
If you were in the living room watching a ball game and someone walked into the room and fired off a gun, you would probably be overly cautious sitting in that room after that. While the same gunshot when we expect it, is not a big deal to us. Surprise the pup and you will have to gradually build confidence again.

If you let pup watch from a distance while another dog is getting some retrieves with gunfire involved, then he can get used to the sound without being the center of attention. This can help as well.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:25 pm

There is obviously a lot of ways to do it. Just keep in mind, don't scare the doo out of the pup.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:06 pm

roaniecowpony wrote:I like the idea of a clipped wing for the first bird shot. It comes down every time and you can control the noise with a blank gun. Does that get the same result? Or does the bird need to be dead?

Bird doesn't need to be dead, but I would use a dead bird with a very young or shy pup, clippe wing would be fine for an older or bolder pup.

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:26 pm

We like to muffle the sound of the blank pistol by dicharging the pistol in our pocket aways from the dog using a bird. adjust from there by the pups reaction.

DoubleBarrel GunDogs · Post by **DoubleBarrel GunDogs** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:55 pm

ACooper wrote:
roaniecowpony wrote:I like the idea of a clipped wing for the first bird shot. It comes down every time and you can control the noise with a blank gun. Does that get the same result? Or does the bird need to be dead?

Bird doesn't need to be dead, but I would use a dead bird with a very young or shy pup, clippe wing would be fine for an older or bolder pup.

roanie,

The dog doesn't know you didn't shoot the bird! C'mon, you know better than that. The advantages to using clipwings are a: you never miss. and b: The bird will try to escape, giving the dog a good chase and distracting his attention from the sound of the shot. The dog of course does hear the shot, but inadvertantly makes a positive association with the bird. The two things are now paired in the dogs mind as positive.

ACooper,

The dog should not be introduced to the gun until it is aggressively chasing birds. Why would you introduce the gun to a pup that isn't ready to be introduced to gunfire?

Nate

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:29 pm

Coopsn't here to answer but for myself I want the pup introduced to gun fire completely separate from birds. And this normally happens before I have the pup on birds. Once the pup has been gun proofed then I bring the birds into the equation and then and only then will the pup associate the two and it will last a life times just like it does with any other method. But I have eliminate the possibility of the pup getting scared by the gun and associating it with birds to the point it is bird shy along with gun shy. Probably over half of the gun shy dogs that have been brought in to be fixed are bird shy as well and it makes it almost impossible to fix when your only leverage is gone.

Ezzy

DoubleBarrel GunDogs · Post by **DoubleBarrel GunDogs** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:20 am

ezzy333 wrote:Coopsn't here to answer but for myself I want the pup introduced to gun fire completely separate from birds. And this normally happens before I have the pup on birds. Once the pup has been gun proofed then I bring the birds into the equation and then and only then will the pup associate the two and it will last a life times just like it does with any other method. But I have eliminate the possibility of the pup getting scared by the gun and associating it with birds to the point it is bird shy along with gun shy. Probably over half of the gun shy dogs that have been brought in to be fixed are bird shy as well and it makes it almost impossible to fix when your only leverage is gone.

Ezzy

All of my pups have been introduced to birds between 6 - 8 weeks. Bird work continues throughout the gun intro, shooting birds over the pup and introductory field work. I treat all client dogs similarly. I've never trained a dog using this method, that didn't have a positive association with birds and guns. The key is to have a dog that is aggressively chasing birds well before the gun is in play.

In the case of a dog that is already gun shy, I go back to birds and introduce the gun when the dog is ready. In the case of a bird problem, I work that out with proper exposure to birds, and build the dogs confidence. But to each his own.

The reason I corrected ACooper was that he commented on another post. In that post the gentleman mentioned introducing the gun by throwing a clipwing bird for the dog as a distraction.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:54 am

DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote: ACooper,

The dog should not be introduced to the gun until it is aggressively chasing birds. Why would you introduce the gun to a pup that isn't ready to be introduced to gunfire?

Nate

I think you forgot to add the in your opinion part. What happens with a pup who never shows much interest in chasing?

Preacher · Post by **Preacher** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:04 am

cap gun out of the toy section at walmart $7 replacement caps $3 for 100 its cheap and can do it indoors while giving treats and work up to something bigger

DoubleBarrel GunDogs · Post by **DoubleBarrel GunDogs** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:44 pm

ACooper wrote:
DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote: ACooper,

The dog should not be introduced to the gun until it is aggressively chasing birds. Why would you introduce the gun to a pup that isn't ready to be introduced to gunfire?

Nate
I think you forgot to add the in your opinion. What happens with a pup who never shows much interest in chasing?

I'm not sure who else's opinion you expected me to give?

As for a pup that never shows much interest in chasing? If you can't get a pup to eventually chase a clip wing pigeon, he is not bold or confident enough to be introduced to gun fire. If he seems to have zero prey drive, you may either need to put him in a pen with birds to kill in order to establish drive, or just call him a pet. That's your choice, depending on how much effort you think he's worth.

In my opinion.

Nate

campgsp · Post by **campgsp** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:49 pm

A regular old shotgun, with some regular old shot shells is about the cheapest and most effective way to go imo. I've done it using birds, I've done it running pup with older dogs, i've done it with just the pup running around alone no birds no other dog. And all have had no problem what so ever. Even just today a lightning struck right over my house while out with my pup who is 5 months gun broke and it didn't phase him. I about craped myself.

The best advice I can give from my experience is
1. Don't be in a hurry to shoot directly over your pup
2. First shots should be at a greater distance, then work closer.
3. It's not rocket science, think how you react to a loud sound and inadvertently adjust that knowledge to how your dog will react at first. ( unless he's some crazy nut with no care about any loud sound like my pup)

If done properly it should take no longer then a week or two at the most to intro gun fire. If your having to think to hardly on it maybe your just thinking to hard.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:13 am

DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote:
As for a pup that never shows much interest in chasing? If you can't get a pup to eventually chase a clip wing pigeon, he is not bold or confident enough to be introduced to gun fire. If he seems to have zero prey drive, you may either need to put him in a pen with birds to kill in order to establish drive, or just call him a pet. That's your choice, depending on how much effort you think he's worth.

In my opinion.

Nate

You are entitled to your opinion and can gun break a dog anyway you choose I will continue to do it in a way that has worked for me. It is odd that my method is wrong according to you but has always worked for me? To each their own.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:15 am

campgsp wrote:A regular old shotgun, with some regular old shot shells is about the cheapest and most effective way to go imo. I've done it using birds, I've done it running pup with older dogs, i've done it with just the pup running around alone no birds no other dog. And all have had no problem what so ever. Even just today a lightning struck right over my house while out with my pup who is 5 months gun broke and it didn't phase him. I about craped myself.

The best advice I can give from my experience is
1. Don't be in a hurry to shoot directly over your pup
2. First shots should be at a greater distance, then work closer.
3. It's not rocket science, think how you react to a loud sound and inadvertently adjust that knowledge to how your dog will react at first. ( unless he's some crazy nut with no care about any loud sound like my pup)

If done properly it should take no longer then a week or two at the most to intro gun fire. If your having to think to hardly on it maybe your just thinking to hard.

Nice post.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:31 am

Ms. Cage wrote:We like to muffle the sound of the blank pistol by dicharging the pistol in our pocket aways from the dog using a bird. adjust from there by the pups reaction.

Watched a guy do that at a field trial years ago. Caught his jacket on fire! Funny as could be! When you fire a blank there is going to be a flame. From a blank gun the flame come's out between the barrel and the cylinder. In a 22 handgun, the flame will come out the barrel. I would strongly advise every one not to do that. Take your gun out in the dark and fire a round watching the front of the chamber.

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:35 am

DonF wrote:Watched a guy do that at a field trial years ago. Caught his jacket on fire! Funny as could be! When you fire a blank there is going to be a flame. From a blank gun the flame come's out between the barrel and the cylinder. In a 22 handgun, the flame will come out the barrel. I would strongly advise every one not to do that. Take your gun out in the dark and fire a round watching the front of the chamber.

I can't tell you how many times i've watched Howie let his primer pistol rip inside his jacket pocket or pants pocket. I'm not going to say a word to the hubby. I'd love to see him out in field doing a jig with a pair of hot pants on!!!

Rod W · Post by **Rod W** » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:08 am

You are one wicked WOMAN!!!

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:35 am

Rod W wrote:You are one wicked WOMAN!!!

Not really, just some humor. Howie won't change his ways . Takes everything to the limits. That's what I love about him!!!

High Voltage · Post by **High Voltage** » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:38 am

Ms. Cage wrote:
DonF wrote:Watched a guy do that at a field trial years ago. Caught his jacket on fire! Funny as could be! When you fire a blank there is going to be a flame. From a blank gun the flame come's out between the barrel and the cylinder. In a 22 handgun, the flame will come out the barrel. I would strongly advise every one not to do that. Take your gun out in the dark and fire a round watching the front of the chamber.
I can't tell you how many times i've watched Howie let his primer pistol rip inside his jacket pocket or pants pocket. I'm not going to say a word to the hubby. I'd love to see him out in field doing a jig with a pair of hot pants on!!!

ROFLMAO! If it happened & you got it on video you could make some bucks charging people to view it

To the OP - Since you have the breeder to help you should be OK. Also like someone mentioned earlier NAVHDA is a great group that helps you to train your dog. There should be a chapter close to you. One of the best things about NAVHDA is the people you meet and how willing they are to help you & share their training tools with you. On the web site http://navhda.com/ is a chapter locator.

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:43 am

Funny stuff...

I live in the 'burbs and when training in my backyard, I had occasion to fire my 22 blank pistol, but wanted it muted. I wrapped a rag around the cylinder area and fired it numerous times that way. Maybe 50-100 times. The rag got pretty scorched, but never caught fire or even smoldered.

FirearmFan · Post by **FirearmFan** » Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:02 pm

High Voltage wrote:
Ms. Cage wrote:
DonF wrote:Watched a guy do that at a field trial years ago. Caught his jacket on fire! Funny as could be! When you fire a blank there is going to be a flame. From a blank gun the flame come's out between the barrel and the cylinder. In a 22 handgun, the flame will come out the barrel. I would strongly advise every one not to do that. Take your gun out in the dark and fire a round watching the front of the chamber.
I can't tell you how many times i've watched Howie let his primer pistol rip inside his jacket pocket or pants pocket. I'm not going to say a word to the hubby. I'd love to see him out in field doing a jig with a pair of hot pants on!!!
ROFLMAO! If it happened & you got it on video you could make some bucks charging people to view it

To the OP - Since you have the breeder to help you should be OK. Also like someone mentioned earlier NAVHDA is a great group that helps you to train your dog. There should be a chapter close to you. One of the best things about NAVHDA is the people you meet and how willing they are to help you & share their training tools with you. On the web site http://navhda.com/ is a chapter locator.

I have looked into navhda (i believe the closest chapter is 2 hours away) but the dog I am getting is not a navhda approved breed (springer spaniel), so would they be any help? Obviously they could offer advice for generic things like intro to gunfire but you can't join navhda without a navhda breed dog can you? I don't know that much about the organization but I would guess not.

millerms06 · Post by **millerms06** » Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:23 pm

The first noise my dogs heard when they got home from their breeders was their bowls being banged on the hand. Outside in the backyard I used 2x4 blocks a couple times, three separated days for the first week or so while they were chasing dokken scented dummies or sometimes frozen quail. When they got to find and chase flushed birds on training grounds, I used cut 20 gauge poppers, followed by 12 gauge poppers, and then used live rounds to close out the phase. Never had to regress back with any of them and this was all done before the first four months. It could have been done sooner but I am big believer in giving a dog a few weeks off when establish consistency with an element. I am not in a big rush and the dog is always going to tell me when it is time to progress anyway.

The golden rule is the dog has to be engaged with anything they are after when you fire and never fire right next to them. At a distance is always a safer situation.

Wenaha · Post by **Wenaha** » Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:28 am

I think the question was about introducing gunfire, not introducing bird killing over a point. Separate things.

You can simply take your shotgun and puppy out, let him find and flush a bird. He will chase. When he is about 40-50 yards away, fire in the air. Watch the pup. If he flinches or stops he is reacting to the shot. Do nothing to reassure the dog, act as though there is nothing to worry about.

If he keeps chasing, fire when he is a little closer in the next session. If he has reacted to the shot, use less noise or let him get further away on the next session. Don't over-do it. On shot per session is enough. He should have a nose full of bird and be excited and engaged each time you fire.

So the special equipment needed is a bird and a shotgun. Remember, you are not killing birds, just shooting in the air.