Gun Dog by richard wolters???

[thCalihunt24]

i am starting my 2 yr old lab on some training based off the book Gun Dog by richard wolters. is this a good training program to go by or should i seek a better program. i am new at this so let me know what programs worked for your dogs or you think might work best for my my 2yr old choc lab. mostly hunting duck

[kninebirddog]

Evan Graham has a FAR better book.
http://www.gundogsupply.com/evan-graham ... fetch.html

most important thing though is pick a system and stick with it.....Bouncing around from one method to another while you are still learning yourself will only prove to be a lesson in frustration more for the dog

[thCalihunt24]

ok ill definitely check that out. so i should buy the whole package? all the dvds and litature?

[ezzy333]

It is a kot of money but if you take care of everything you can seell them at a good price. Some one may have some you could buy now.

Ezzy

[big_fish]

Gun dog By wolters is more of a pointer type program I like wolters but will admit it is a little old I have read a good bit of wolters stuff and used water dog to train a lab and he turned out great. With all the programs in the world the most important thing is consistency and patients what ever program you choose these 2 things will go along way.

[Doc E]

Books by Wolters are VERY 'old school'.
They were great back in the day that they were written, but they are very outdated.
The "Smartwork series", by Evan Graham are top notch.
You can buy the whole series or you can buy them ala carte.
I think that Evan has a "springtime special' going on.
Evan is on Vancouver Island right now, putting on a seminar, but
he frequents this forum periodically and is always willing to offer advice and answer questions.


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[thCalihunt24]

so i think that ill switch to smartwork. i havent really done much witht my dog from the wolters, just the basics. in the smartwork program i see that there is a few "puppy" sections. since my dog is starting late should i still work my dog through those sections just as if she were still a pup or skip those?

[whoadog]

Those of you who have read Evan's book, does he use the wing on a flyrod approach like Wolter's?

[Doc E]

so i think that ill switch to smartwork. i havent really done much witht my dog from the wolters, just the basics. in the smartwork program i see that there is a few "puppy" sections. since my dog is starting late should i still work my dog through those sections just as if she were still a pup or skip those?

Start from the beginning --- just like the dog was a puppy --- and progress from there.


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[Doc E]

Those of you who have read Evan's book, does he use the wing on a flyrod approach like Wolter's?

No.


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[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

i am starting my 2 yr old lab on some training based off the book Gun Dog by richard wolters. is this a good training program to go by or should i seek a better program. i am new at this so let me know what programs worked for your dogs or you think might work best for my my 2yr old choc lab. mostly hunting duck

Water Dog would have been a preferable choice over Gun Dog based on what you've said. That said, the Wolter's methods are quite dated. If your primary goal is duck hunting with your dog you should do well with Evan Graham's system. There are several benefits to following the system of a well known pro who is also active in giving advice and offers training seminars.

1. There are usually many people around who can help you along, and are familiar with the system you have chosen to follow.

2. You can attend a seminar based on training methods already familiar to you and your dog. Consequently you'll be inclined to learn more from it.

3. When you get into a good system, and stick with it, the lights will come on. It is very difficult to train with consistency, and to have success in training if you're constantly changing methods. There will be plenty of time down the road to customize your training method if you choose.

Nate

[whoadog]

That said, the Wolter's methods are quite dated.

Maybe, but some things never go out of style. Imo, ideas like (paraphrasing Wolter's here) spend some time with your dog every day, be fair and consistent, don't enforce what you haven't taught, expect and require your dog to obey commands that have been taught, be the pack leader, do everything you can to use the dogs natural tendencies to your advantage are as relevant today as ever. Argue with his method if you like but the logic behind it is very strong. As far as I'm concerned, Gun Dog is a must read for any pointing breed trainer whether you intend to use his actual method or not. At a minimum, if you disagree, it will make your arguments against the method stronger.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

Whoadog,

I agree with your post Guys like Wolters, Wehle and Delmar Smith were dog training pioneers all with solid foundations.

I'm guess what I'm saying is that an updated package based on a good foundation is easier for most people to follow. I'm certainly not trying to show disrespect for the founders and elders.

Nate

[Neil]

That said, the Wolter's methods are quite dated.

Maybe, but some things never go out of style. Imo, ideas like (paraphrasing Wolter's here) spend some time with your dog every day, be fair and consistent, don't enforce what you haven't taught, expect and require your dog to obey commands that have been taught, be the pack leader, do everything you can to use the dogs natural tendencies to your advantage are as relevant today as ever. Argue with his method if you like but the logic behind it is very strong. As far as I'm concerned, Gun Dog is a must read for any pointing breed trainer whether you intend to use his actual method or not. At a minimum, if you disagree, it will make your arguments against the method stronger.

Wolter was dogmatic, dealing in absolutes, believing his way was the only way. His only get a pup at 49 days and pack leader stuff is nonsense, as is most everything else he promoted beyond the basic intro parts.

It is easier, but lazy to write about only way to train.

[DonF]

As I understand it, Wolter's bought one pointing dog to train and write a book on training them. He was a lab man! Gene Hill worked on the book with him and gene was also a Lab man. I bought Wolters book years ago. Read it then threw it away. I would not recommend it to anyone!

[mask]

While Wolters book may not be the best, there are certainly books out there that are worse, much worse.

[big_fish]

I am a fan of Wolters but have to agree it is a little outdated. His theory was based off of Dr.J Paul Scotts findings as he studied the animal from birth through death. Some of his techniques are obsurd like his way of training whoa " get the dog to follow you the turn around and jump up and down screaming whoa and waving your hands in the air". Charlie Journey A pro trainer out of VA has made a video based on Wolters gun dog but has updated things like whoa training and force fetch and a few others it is still called gun dog. a lot of things have advanced over the last 30 year including genetics in our dogs so it only makes since the the training has advanced along with them.but we still have to give credit to the founders of our sport mr. Wolters, mr. Smith and all the others through the years.

[thCalihunt24]

" get the dog to follow you the turn around and jump up and down screaming whoa and waving your hands in the air"

thats one of the things that made me question it. and i didnt realize that it was so outdated.

[Doc E]

Whoadog,

I agree with your post Guys like Wolters, Wehle and Delmar Smith were dog training pioneers all with solid foundations.

Nate

Incorrect.
Wolters was not a dog trainer -- he was a writer.
Others trained him and his dog and he wrote about it...... And took credit for the training.

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[slistoe]

Whoadog,

I agree with your post Guys like Wolters, Wehle and Delmar Smith were dog training pioneers all with solid foundations.

I'm guess what I'm saying is that an updated package based on a good foundation is easier for most people to follow. I'm certainly not trying to show disrespect for the founders and elders.

Nate

Wolters pioneered nothing. Wehle is a man of some note, but not a dog training pioneer. But you did get one out of three.

[nikegundog]

Wolters pioneered nothing. Wehle is a man of some note, but not a dog training pioneer. But you did get one out of three.

Wolters was one of the pioneers in the creation of retriever hunt tests.

[Doc E]

Wolters pioneered nothing. Wehle is a man of some note, but not a dog training pioneer. But you did get one out of three.

Wolters was one of the pioneers in the creation of retriever hunt tests.

Very true.



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[kninebirddog]

As I understand it, Wolter's bought one pointing dog to train and write a book on training them. He was a lab man! Gene Hill worked on the book with him and gene was also a Lab man. I bought Wolters book years ago. Read it then threw it away. I would not recommend it to anyone!

Ditto ...
Sad to say it is the most store sold book out there making it the easiest accessible to newbies but hey the book must be good because the store sells it .

I know some pro trainers that like to fix dogs with issues that like the Book, they call it, Job Security.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

Whoadog,

I agree with your post Guys like Wolters, Wehle and Delmar Smith were dog training pioneers all with solid foundations.

I'm guess what I'm saying is that an updated package based on a good foundation is easier for most people to follow. I'm certainly not trying to show disrespect for the founders and elders.

Nate

Wolters pioneered nothing. Wehle is a man of some note, but not a dog training pioneer. But you did get one out of three.

I suppose the viewpont is subjective. However, there seems to be no such thing as plagerism in the world of dog training.
I admit I don't know much about Wolter's beyond his book Waterdog. I wouldn't recommend it as a go to book on training pups.

Nate

[whoadog]

Wolters was not a dog trainer -- he was a writer.

Wolter was dogmatic.... his pack leader stuff is nonsense,

whoadogheavesaheavysigh
No other author seems to evoke so much emotion as Wolters. I don't understand why but, let's deal with each of these statements one at a time.
Assertion 1: Wolters was not a trainer--he was a writer.
Rebuttal: Actually, I think Wolters was trained as a doctor if I remember correctly. He certainly was writer, one respected enough to have a column for a good number of years in Gun Dog Magazine. He was also president of the National Hunting Retrievers Association and chairman of the Winchester Retrieving Club for quite some time. These are not positions he could have held without some degree of dog training knowledge and success. By the way, I don't care who wrote the book and who did the training, my original post still applies.
Assertion 2: Wolters was dogmatic:
Rebuttal: Much of Wolters method was derived from what was, at the time, very recent research into dog pyschology and behavior. It was hardly "dogmatic" in the sense it ascribed to traditionally held views on what dog training should be. In fact it was quite the opposite and much of the mainstream dog community had a lot of negative things to say about him and his methods. If you meant "systematic", I would agree. But, isn't employing a "progressive system" the current rage in the dog training world?
Assertion 3: His pack leader stuff is nonsense.
Rebuttal: Wolters was not the only author of his day to speak of pack pyschology. Although not a gun dog person, well-known British trainer and author Barbara Woodhouse also spoke of "leading" your dog. Surely you would agree that dogs understand our body language much more readily that our spoken language. If you are ignoring your posture, tone, and motion and emotion when training your dog, I submit your training is not as effective as it could be.
Finally, read my original post again and, other than the pack leader thing, find something that does not make sense. These ideas I got from Wolters' book as well as a few others that agreed with his philosophy.

Imo, ideas like (paraphrasing Wolter's here) spend some time with your dog every day, be fair and consistent, don't enforce what you haven't taught, expect and require your dog to obey commands that have been taught, be the pack leader, do everything you can to use the dogs natural tendencies to your advantage are as relevant today as ever. Argue with his method if you like but the logic behind it is very strong. As far as I'm concerned, Gun Dog is a must read for any pointing breed trainer whether you intend to use his actual method or not. At a minimum, if you disagree, it will make your arguments against the method stronger.

[Neil]

I have a pretty fair vocabulary, one of the accepted definitions of "dogma" is "- to hold a belief not supported by fact". And I add he was strident (and please look it up before correcting me).

More importantly, I fully agree those things you mentioned in your first post are valid.

[whoadog]

please look it up before correcting me

Sorry if you found it insulting, I only meant to disagree with you, not insult your vocabulary.

[mask]

Wolters is probably outdated. I read water dog about 40 years ago and gun dog about 30 years ago. That dates me and the books. At the time they were probably pretty good books. There are more modern books abvailable that are worse. If you want to read a real joke, read bird dog by Ben Williams, pure manure.

[EvanG]

ok ill definitely check that out. so i should buy the whole package? all the dvds and litature?

Feel free to contact me via PM, email (rushcreekpress@aol.com), or by phone 816-213-9397, and we can discuss your goals and your dog. Then you can make your own choice as to how you want to proceed. One of the many differences in the Smartwork program is that you do not need to obtain it all at once. You can do so, and save a lot of money on our discounted packages. But you can also get the entire thing (or all you decide you need according to your goals) one item at a time at an average cost of about $25 per item. Make it fit your needs and your budget.

Let me know if you have any questions anytime.

EvanG
http://www.evan-graham.net

[QuillGordon]

Strange, I swear I replied to this

Most likely there is better training material available today
Regardless, Wolters "Game Dog" is a better suit for the Upland Labrador

[mask]

Strange, I swear I replied to this

Most likely there is better training material available today
Regardless, Wolters "Game Dog" is a better suit for the Upland Labrador

Books or no books that is a fantastic picture.

[QuillGordon]

Thank you. It hangs on the wall behind me here at my work office

[KCBrittfan]

I agree. That picture is outstanding!

Among many other things in the picture, I love the dirt on the dog's front chest and legs. A working dog covered in hard earned dirt is a "trophy" to be appreciated. Thanks for sharing.

As for Wolters: I am not a big fan of his books. I can't remember which ones I read and which ones I just skimmed through. I do recall being glad that I used the public library and had not purchased any of them.