Getting started with a flusher

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:45 pm

Hey guys. Well today Jake is 11 weeks old. I haven't done much with him other than teaching him to sit, getting him out to see and experience lots, and try to get him crate trained (week and a half in of ignoring him and still barking and howling like a mad man every time he's in there, and he gets put in a few times throughout the day and every night). So my question is, what should I be doing right now other than what I have been? I see videos of dogs his age way more advanced, but then other people say let them be pups. Where do I go from here?

UplandJim · Post by **UplandJim** » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:36 pm

First off buy the book: Gun-Dog Training Spaniels and Retrievers by Kenneth C. Roebuck
Then read chapters 2 - 6 before you try to train him anything gundog related.
Second, pick an item that you plan to use to introduce him to retrieving and never let him play with it. Also, never throw one of his toys for him to retrieve.
Third, never throw more than three to five retrieves in a single day. If you have a dog that grows tired of retrieving then you've got a huge problem.
Fourth, read chapters 2 - 6 again and take notes this time.
Fifth, never let him play with a dead bird, not even a wing.
This will get you started.

What breed do you have?

Jim

btw, I have a Field Bred English Cocker.

birdshot · Post by **birdshot** » Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:52 pm

Look at Trekmoor's posts. I think he had some short videos of him starting a spaniel. His methods are foolproof.

UplandJim · Post by **UplandJim** » Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:16 pm

birdshot wrote:Look at Trekmoor's posts. I think he had some short videos of him starting a spaniel. His methods are foolproof.

Foolproof? Really? I must check this guy out.

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:34 pm

socialization - something new every day.

motorcycle noise
People of many ethnicities
Tall men
Men with deep voices
Men with beards
Elderly
People wearing hats, helmets
People wearing Ugg® boots
People wearing hoodies
People wearing backpacks
People wearing sunglasses
People with canes, walking sticks or walkers
Teenagers
Children standing as well as playing
Toddlers (walking and squealing)
Infants (crawling)
People running by
Indigent or homeless people
umbrellas, canes, wheelchairs, bikes, keys, people in hats, young children, passing trucks, odd sounds and sudden, loud noises and other animals. " quote

http://www.huntsmith.com/#product:13
By the time you covered all of this it may be Spring in ON and you can get out to the field/woods every day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbUj4JZi1T0

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:49 am

UplandJim wrote:First off buy the book: Gun-Dog Training Spaniels and Retrievers by Kenneth C. Roebuck
Then read chapters 2 - 6 before you try to train him anything gundog related.
Second, pick an item that you plan to use to introduce him to retrieving and never let him play with it, ever. Also, never throw one of his toys for him to retrieve, ever.
Third, never throw more than three to five retrieves in a single day. If you have a dog that grows tired of retrieving then you've got a huge problem.
Fourth, read chapters 2 - 6 again and take notes this time.
Fifth, never let him play with a dead bird, not even a wing, ever.
This will get you started.

What breed do you have?

Jim

btw, I have a Field Bred English Cocker.

I also have a field bred english cocker. I got him from Flushing Star Kennels in Ohio.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:17 am

UplandJim wrote:First off buy the book: Gun-Dog Training Spaniels and Retrievers by Kenneth C. Roebuck

Done! Just snagged it up for 3 bucks on Amazon lol.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:17 pm

CDN_Cocker wrote:
UplandJim wrote:First off buy the book: Gun-Dog Training Spaniels and Retrievers by Kenneth C. Roebuck
Done! Just snagged it up for 3 bucks on Amazon lol.

Your Brit buddies - and at least one of your Yank compadres - would say you overpaid by at least two dollars. (Even if it was $2C.) They also would tell you that as a gundog trainer, Roebuck was a good London metropolitan bobby, though.

MG

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:44 pm

Ya lost me Mike lol.

UplandJim · Post by **UplandJim** » Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:20 pm

crackerd wrote:
CDN_Cocker wrote:
UplandJim wrote:First off buy the book: Gun-Dog Training Spaniels and Retrievers by Kenneth C. Roebuck
Done! Just snagged it up for 3 bucks on Amazon lol.
Your Brit buddies - and at least one of your Yank compadres - would say you overpaid by at least two dollars. (Even if it was $2C.) They also would tell you that as a gundog trainer, Roebuck was a good London metropolitan bobby, though.

MG

Dude, are you calling Mr. Roebuck an Acme Whistle? That's just wrong.

(I have no idea wth you are talking about either)

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:38 pm

I'm not calling Roebuck "mister" or "constable" either - I'm telling the new cocker owner he can learn more in 15 minutes of training with knowledgeable spanielers than in memorizing the whole of the late Roebuck's rather lame book (and even lamer video). Whether he (Roebuck, who was a copper in the UK and not particularly noted as a gundog trainer - can I make that any clearer?) is writing about spaniels or retrievers, it's the driest, least compelling (and unhelpful) training book I've ever come across. And I've read, and gleaned from, a good many of them.

MG

UplandJim · Post by **UplandJim** » Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:05 pm

crackerd wrote:I'm not calling Roebuck "mister" or "constable" either - I'm telling the new cocker owner he can learn more in 15 minutes of training with knowledgeable spanielers than in memorizing the whole of the late Roebuck's rather lame book (and even lamer video). Whether he (Roebuck, who was a copper in the UK and not particularly noted as a gundog trainer - can I make that any clearer?) is writing about spaniels or retrievers, it's the driest, least compelling (and unhelpful) training book I've ever come across. And I've read, and gleaned from, a good many of them.

MG

That was *tongue in cheek* btw.

Can you name me a few knowledgeable spanielers?

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:19 pm

As I've been out of the spaniel games for some time, really wouldn't name for you anything of the sort. But the state where you're living always had and probably still has more than its share of topnotch spaniel handlers, and maybe you've heard of Talbot Radcliffe who was a frequent visitor, or Ed Whitaker of Valley Forge, who was at the "acme" of trialing for many years? Or the new chap's own breeder, Jim Karlovec, next door to you in Ohio and with quite a strong reputation for trialing (if not - sorry, Cass - determining the sex of his puppies

)? Regardless, all that makes no never mind to the new owner, who's in Canada and apparently having a tough time coming by training help. Not coming by books, but actual hands-on help for a newcomer.

MG

UplandJim · Post by **UplandJim** » Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:33 pm

crackerd wrote:As I've been out of the spaniel games for some time, really wouldn't name for you anything of the sort. But the state where you're living always had and probably still has more than its share of topnotch spaniel handlers, and maybe you've heard of Talbot Radcliffe who was a frequent visitor, or Ed Whitaker of Valley Forge, who was at the "acme" of trialing for many years? Or the new chap's own breeder, Jim Karlovec, next door to you in Ohio and with quite a strong reputation for trialing (if not - sorry, Cass - determining the sex of his puppies )? Regardless, all that makes no never mind to the new owner, who's in Canada and apparently having a tough time coming by training help. Not coming by books, but actual hands-on help for a newcomer.

MG

I don't know why you are so defensive I haven't done anything here but offer CDN_Cocker some advice. I suggested a book to get him started. I very good book I might add. Training with a pro could come later if that's available.

I will check out the creds on the gents you mentioned.

The OP is asking for advice about his new pup, but you seem heck bent on bashing Kenneth Roebuck and myself. Perhaps you could be a little more helpful?

DoubleBarrel GunDogs · Post by **DoubleBarrel GunDogs** » Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:13 pm

The imprinting stage of a dog happens in the first 20 weeks. Proper introduction to birds is very important during this period.
Keep your yard work (Cues - commands) separate from your introductory field work. Birds and guns must be kept fun for your young pup. No commands in the field until your introductory yard work and field work are completed.

Click and treat works very well on pups, and will make your yard work much easier. You can make a transition to the electronic collar when all of this is complete, if you choose.

Check out George Hickox DVD Great Beginnings.
Rick Smith videos are also good. Both of these guys offer excellent seminars as well.

Nate

beretta303 · Post by **beretta303** » Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:52 am

Watching this thread with interest...
My English springer Otis is 17 weeks..
Only thing I'm working on is "Here"(now with a whistle).. Knock on wood, he's seems to have this one down pat even in the woods out back off the lead.
And "Hup".. his attention span is short so he won't hold it more than 20 seconds or so.
Plenty of play.. He's goes to work with me every day so I get a chance to work on stuff for a few minutes 5-6 times a day.

That's all I'm messing with for now. I've been tempted to start working on "place" but I keep telling myself to take it slow.

Tom

SpringerDude · Post by **SpringerDude** » Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:20 pm

Urban Gun Dog has some helpful suggestions on moving through the training process. I don't think using an age timeline is as important as moving along without skipping steps or moving too quickly before a skill is learned. I would rather see two retrieves per day completed quickly and with desire than several retrieves with little focus and desire. A couple in the morning and a couple in the evening is good.

I also like to see a pup that can get out of the truck in a new location and (within reason) have the dogs focus and make a retrieve or two before distractions set in.

Someone mentioned all the "other things" a pup needs to experience. All these are good.

Remember, pup is a pup. Don't demand perfection all the time or pup will get bored with you. But you can be in control of his free time and also in control of his fun.

Check out www.pineshadows.com They have some nice information and I like their video's.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:30 am

Well just an update on Jake. He's settling into his crate better now, still a bit of crying initially when he goes in but done within a minute or 2. I have been working mainly on that and housebreaking (boo to puppies!) and the Here and Hup. Jake being only 11 weeks old is very responsive to the Here command. He is quick to respond and with lots of enthusiasm (just about knocks me over when he launches himself into my arms). I have worked on the hup command mainly to gain control of him when doing things... ie. going out/coming in the door to the house, when I am putting his food/water out, or when I need his attention. Jake has responded well to Hup and I use a hand signal with it as well and generally I do not have to repeat myself. Today I finally got my whistle in the mail so I took him out for a short 5 minute session and used the whistle with my hand signal and then commanded Hup. He seems to get it and I reinforced it by just blowing the hup and raising my hand when we were at the door as he knows to hup there and 9 times out of 10 does it before I even give the command. He very quickly sat when I blew the whistle so I think that he is going to integrate it in very easily! I plan to use the Here pip-pip-pip next time I feed him. As far as retrieving, I have kept it very limited. He is very keen on it and so far I have limited it to just a tennis ball. I do not throw his toys and the tennis ball only comes out when it is time to do a couple retrieves. He gets very excited and although he tries sometimes to run around behind me I make sure to block him so he has to return to me. I never throw more than 3 in a day so he is usually still jazzed up when I put the ball away. He also loves to hold objects in his mouth. He almost always is walking around the house with either a bone or a toy in his mouth and I always praise him when he comes to show me (but I do not take it as I don't use these things for retrieving). So that's where we're at so far! Any thoughts, comments or criticism is appreciated

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:23 am

The comment is you're doing fine, Cass. All your early introduction is the way to go. (Early bird intro - dead birds sans gunfire - soon to follow, I would hope, too.) Some studies have it that a gundog pup's brain is 95% of its adult size at 10 weeks old, so they're little sponges at that age.

You'll also have to decide soon whether you want to let the pup chase birds it flushes, or whether you want to steady it from the outset (albeit by using very little pressure). I found steadying far easier to accomplish by never letting them chase. The "exuberance" of the flush didn't suffer from it - but again if you come down too hard on a pup, verbally or physically, for running in, you may suffer the consequences. On the other hand if you train them

You might ask Tim (springerdude) which is de rigeuer among competitive spaniel handlers today - to let them chase for a while or start in right away with the steadiness? This would go for spaniel trials and hunt tests, not necessarily for spaniels playing the retriever games, which is the direction I went in (and at which I believe Tim has experience, also).

MG

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:24 am

Well just took a walk to the park and did a training session. I let him run around free dragging the leash in case I needed to grab him to enforce something. So first off I just let him run off and when he got a distance away from him I would blow the Here whistle. He was bang on every time and rushed back to me. Next I wanted to make him hup so I blew a pip while he was out wandering. He did not hup so I quickly went to him and placed him in a hup as I blew a pip again and praised him. The next time I did it he hupped quickly so I pulled the tennis ball out of my pocket and threw it a short distance letting him retrieve and whistling him back to me which he did. Again lots of praise and then after a bit I took the ball back. We repeated the drill a couple of times throughout his play session and each time I used the ball to reward him if he hupped. One time he tried to run past me at an angle but I was able to step on the leash and whistled again and he came running into me. While walking through the baseball field I zig zagged and each time he turned I gave the turn whistle at the exact moment he was turning to try and accustom him to it. I don't plan on training too hard on this yet but thought it might be good to at least get it in his head a bit. He did very well and began turning when I did it so I stopped and threw him one final retrieve to end on a good note. He went straight out and came straight back and I loaded him up with praise and we headed home. I think it went quite well and we only trained for 10-15 minutes. He also saw some ducks on his walk (which he seemed interested in) and we had to stop for a train to pass. The train made him nervous at first but when he calmed I said good boy and he sat there beside me. I stayed quiet and calm so as not to make a big deal out of the noisy thing.

DoubleBarrel GunDogs · Post by **DoubleBarrel GunDogs** » Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:48 am

You need to build your pup's prey drive before any restraint is made around birds. I like to begin by giving a young pup a lock wing pigeon with no check cord, no distractions, and in an area with little if any cover. The bird won't flap or frighten the pup.

When he'll pick up the lock wing and carry it around you can go to a clip wing. Remove the primary feathers from each wing. A clip wing pigeon will try to get away, and will give pup a good chase. Chase builds prey drive. When he catches the clip wing and packs it around a few times you can move to a flyer.

This next step takes a little practice, and you should recuit an assistant. (A young boy or girl will do just fine, and they quickly learn to love this job.) Have your assistant hold the pup by his collar until you are ready. Hold the pigeon upside down with your index finger on its crop. Dizzy the pigeon by using a quick circular motion and throw it on the ground where the pup sees it. Don't place the bird in cover because it is less likely to fly, and the pup is less likely to find it. Furthermore you don't want to startle or discourage him with a bird flushing from cover. When the bird is upright and apperars to be able to fly, signal your assistant to let the pup go. The pup should run in enthusiatically to flush and chase the bird. Let him chase the bird as far as he wants to, and have a lock wing bird on the ground ready for him to pick up. And yes, the pup will always return to the place that he initially flushed the bird.

As far as introduction to cues and yard work are concerned, I think your doing just fine with Jake. A good way to get a young pup to respond to the whistle is to call him to dinner with it. Cue him to sit before you set down the food dish. As I said before the clicker will help to reinforce, and shape behaviors.

clink83 · Post by **clink83** » Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:59 pm

Sharon wrote:socialization - something new every day.

motorcycle noise
People of many ethnicities
Tall men
Men with deep voices
Men with beards
Elderly
People wearing hats, helmets
People wearing Ugg® boots
People wearing hoodies
People wearing backpacks
People wearing sunglasses
People with canes, walking sticks or walkers
Teenagers
Children standing as well as playing
Toddlers (walking and squealing)
Infants (crawling)
People running by
Indigent or homeless people

umbrellas, canes, wheelchairs, bikes, keys, people in hats, young children, passing trucks, odd sounds and sudden, loud noises and other animals. " quote

http://www.huntsmith.com/#product:13
By the time you covered all of this it may be Spring in ON and you can get out to the field/woods every day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbUj4JZi1T0

Women with ugh boots? Is there a story there?

SpringerDude · Post by **SpringerDude** » Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:50 pm

You have some good suggestions already. Sounds like you are doing well with the pup.

Last summer, I didn't put my pup on birds until November. She was born early May. Bumpers were used primarily. I like them better than tennis balls but pup needs to handle multiple items so keep tennis balls in the routine. Josie became conditioned to hup when she saw the bumper in the air and would do this drill in many different places right out of the truck.

Chase or no chase? Good question. Depends on the dog. As I moved into the Fall with Josie, I would plant a training area with dead birds that were shot over the older dogs. She learned to quarter and find the dead birds on the course. When she was hunting well I started putting taped wing birds. You can take duck tape and put a small strip around the major flight feathers and this works well to keep pigeon from flying off but can fly a ways before hitting the ground if you throw them. Now, she is quartering and finding live birds that don't fly off.

The steadying process can be the most confusing for the dog. When the pup gets confused, then problems pop up in different ways. This is where someone needs to see the pup in person to be able to make reccomendations on training steps.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:17 am

birdshot wrote:Look at Trekmoor's posts. I think he had some short videos of him starting a spaniel. His methods are foolproof.

Thanks for the compliment but I have never claimed the methods I use are foolproof only that they work for me. They also worked for Keith Erlandson and it was his first book that got me on the right track with both spaniels and retrievers. It is a very old fashioned book by todays ways of looking at things and to get the best from it you have to be able to read between the lines. Many people in Britain do not like it at all.

Keith allowed his own spaniels both cockers and springers to hunt for and chase rabbits to switch on their hunting instincts. He assessed their level of drive and added steadiness to flush only when the pups were fired up enough to always hunt like furies and just in time to prevent them getting so deep into the "Red Mist" that training steadiness was going to be very difficult.

Like most folk in Britain Keith did not use e-collars and didn't often use check-cords. His "methods" and now mine are old fashioned, he advised that when a dog refused to obey a thoroughly taught command, it's owner should get out there after it and make d*mn sure the dog did not get long to enjoy it's unauthorised little break from work .....see what I mean about reading between the lines ?

Keith was a very fit man and so was I until old age caught up with me. Keith could and did "run down" both spaniels and retrievers and I used to be able to do the same.

The thing that saves me now when training gundogs is that my level of experience has increased over the years and I can now anticipate and nip in the bud a dogs possible errors. It helps but how I wish I could still "run 'em down !"

Most British spaniel trainers do very little with pups until they reach somewhere between 6 and 8 months of age. The pups are socialised , encouraged to recall to voice and whistle and to retrieve perhaps two or three dummies (of a suitable size and weight) every second day and maybe the pups are taught to sit . That is about it. British spaniel trainers , the trialers anyway, keep their pups "in aboot their feet" the pups are not encouraged to hunt at ranges of more than ten yards and many trainers advise no more than five yards per side. Doing this helps ensure that when a pup begins to go out of control , the trainers close proximity makes it easier to get it back under control.

Later in the dogs life it may be allowed to range further out but by then the habit of always working to the handler is well implanted in the dog.
I am aware that U.S. spaniels are allowed and expected to range out further than ours but I can assure you that getting a keen hunting dog to range further out is easy and so I.M.O. longer range hunting can be left until much later in a dogs development.

To be honest I have heard of the author "Roebuck" but have never read his books , I don't know anyone around here who has read his books.... but most spaniel folk have read Erlandsons ....he was a very prolific field trial winner with spaniels and retrievers and he didn't do too badly with pointers either.

Bill T.

h&t · Post by **h&t** » Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:41 pm

Trekmoor wrote: Keith allowed his own spaniels both cockers and springers to hunt for and chase rabbits to switch on their hunting instincts. He assessed their level of drive and added steadiness to flush only when the pups were fired up enough to always hunt like furies and just in time to prevent them getting so deep into the "Red Mist" that training steadiness was going to be very difficult.

Bill, I do love Erlandson book, totally agree, there's a lot of 'between the lines'. I think, since he trained dogs for trials they needed to run at their best, even on grounds with no game, so it's important to develop the drive to its fullest potential. Today some people still do the same, while others might prefer to put in the brakes before the accelerator

I guess it also depends on the dog and here the experienced assessment becomes invaluable - what does the dog need more - drive or obedience..

Most British spaniel trainers do very little with pups until they reach somewhere between 6 and 8 months of age. The pups are socialised , encouraged to recall to voice and whistle and to retrieve perhaps two or three dummies (of a suitable size and weight) every second day and maybe the pups are taught to sit . That is about it.

Really?

that's why you train your pups few times every day? You may be not counting this as 'training'.
I think the biggest mistake 'new handlers' make is neglecting retrieving development in a young dog.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:40 pm

Yes H+T , I am the odd man out when it comes to retrieve training for spaniels on this side of the pond. I collect a lot of stick from not only spaniel folk for doing as much retrieve training as I do with young pups. Most of the trainers I know , both amateur and professional , do less with their puppies than I do prior to 6 months of age. It works for them and so I posted into here what gives them success ..... they have the majority vote in this country and have the trial results to prove their way works.

I do a lot of work for big driven shooting estates however as a picker-up and so, for me, retrieve training comes in front of hunt training for my spaniels.I have to be certain my spaniels will retrieve every head of game that has fallen in a wide radius of me more often than not among cover where a dog of any breed cannot be seen once it has left my side. At least half of those birds are blind retrieves to the dogs,it is called "sweeping up after the drive." The dogs have to concentrate on being retrievers when in that situation and not concentrate on being hunters and flushers of unshot game. It is not too unusual for my dogs to find and retrieve about 30 birds of various kinds during a drive and most driven shoots do 5 or 6 drives in a day.

At some mixed shoots the dogs could encounter dead or pricked pheasants, partridge, woodcock, woodpigeon and ducks during just one 20 minute search for shot game and they must retrieve it with no help from me for I don't often know exactly where they are among the cover or know that they have found shot game. It is for those reasons I try to make my dogs into retrieve fanatics..... but I must admit I am struggling to turn my brittany pup into one ! :roll:

Bill T.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:10 pm

So how do you make them retrieving fanatics Bill? I plan on using Jake in the duck blind (hopefully even this fall in a no pressure environment if he is accustomed to the gun by then) so retrieving is very important to me. I have only been giving him 3-5 retrieves at a time and not every day. Is this okay or should I be taking a different approach? He's doing great so far, a real natural!

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:24 am

CDN_Cocker wrote:So how do you make them retrieving fanatics?

With spaniels? For starters, you give them something other than tennis balls at the earliest opportunity.

For seconds, you have someone else "give" it to them, i.e., a helper throwing marks at increasing distance, so they learn to use sight over scent, which is called marking. For still another, that "other thrower" will also help you introduce the pup to the gun - in another month or so - by shooting a blank pistol as the bird or bumper's thrown in the air at a distance. That's the foolproof picture any gundog should get the first time it hears gunshot relevant to its work - which is retrieving. Then shooting over a spaniel's flush follows a little later but only when and if it's hupped its little fanny to terra firma.

Speaking of, believe you've been given right helpful retriever advice elsewhere, Cass, by folks with actual retriever FCs and CFCs. Be wise to heed what they tell you, as it's also an early opportunity for steadying the dog for the duck blind which often transfers into steadiness afield. "Steady" is not always steady in the hup sense, but retriever training for a spaniel makes that a much easier road to hoe, especially if you're training alone.

Lastly, chukkar or small ducks if you can come by them from any of your G. White North confreres would be a very good dead bird introduction for your pup. Goose wings if you can get them are also a good thing for a spaniel pup to get its "game grip" on.

MG

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:06 am

Hi CDN ..... I find it hard to explain the things I do to try to make a dog a retrieve fanatic but about 9 out of 10 of the pups I train become retrieve daft. I think that if a pup has been bred to retrieve then it will retrieve unless it's owner gives it reason not to want to anymore. Your pup sounds good to me and if you are happy with what it is already doing ..... then keep on doing it !

I both allow and encourage pups to run-in until they are keen enough to begin steadying. If steadying is begun too early , and that varies from from pup to pup, then the pup is quite likely to decide it doesn't like the "game" after all and will begin to slow down ..... I don't want that. If too much emphasis is put on a lovely sitting "present" at too early an age it is likely the pup will slow down during it's return to you ....or play "keepaway" or drop the dummy or even begin to anxiety bite the dummy . Keep everything fun for quite a long time.......months ! This cannot always be done for so long with someone elses pup in for training . It takes too long for most folks wallets ! It can ,however, be done if the pup is yours and is being trained by you.

I train pups mainly for people I know very well and who know and like my end products. They give me months in which to train a pup , I no longer accept for training pups with a time schedule attached. When steadiness training begins I do not make it a sudden "yesterday you ran in but now you never will again."
I get run-ins from time to time and once the pup is on it's way out I leave it alone to get on with the job. While doing that I resolve to try to be a bit quicker to prevent the run in as soon as I see the pups muscles begin to bunch up for the "off."

Later in the training and with more than one dummy out there to be retrieved , I leave the pup alone with no reprimand if it goes for the "wrong" one . Then I simplify the exercise. I do not ever correct a dog for picking up the "wrong" dummy and only rarely in more advanced training do I stop whistle a dog en-route to a dummy and then redirect it onto another one. Doing that too much can cause a dog to anticipate being stopped which can result in the dog slowing down it's outrun or "spinning" during it's outrun.

I don't train F.F. , I don't find I need to but I would use an e-collar if I needed to .... and that day is coming up fast ! My legs and my ticker ain't what they used to be ! I depend on a pups breeder having done 90% of the "work" for me with his choice of sire and dam. All I do is try to turn on the correct switches at the correct times and add some frills and fripperies to the basic urge a pup should have to retrieve.

Bill T.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:27 am

Well here's an update. Instead of going for a walk and doing our session along the way this morning I just went to the back yard (worked all night and I'm not too ambitious, almost bed time lol). I expected him to not be focused as he generally runs around like a mad man in the back yard when i take him out to relieve himself and is confident there so I didn't think he would listen. Jake surprised me though and was very responsive to the hup and here whistle and I didn't have to place him in a hup once today. The lesson today was introducing a dummy. Up to this point Jake has only had his tennis ball to retrieve. I started with the tennis ball for 2 throws which he was bang on. I then threw the canvas dummy. Jake raced off after it and when he got to it gave it a cautious few sniffs before picking it up and returning to me with his prize. I gave him 3 more throws which he did well with as well but on the last one he picked up the dummy and laid down with it so I quickly moved in and grabbed the leash, gave it a tug while giving the here command and praised him up when he came to me. I figured he had enough so we headed back inside (with a couple more hups on the way which he did flawlessly). Once in the house I have him a short toss of the tennis ball just to end the retrieving on a positive note and he brought it back perfectly so I put the ball, dummy and whistle away and called it a day.

SpringerDude · Post by **SpringerDude** » Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:52 am

CDN,

Good stuff in the last few posts as well as others prior.

One thing I do that Bill T mentioned was that when the pup "runs in" on the retrieve, don't run out fussing at the dog. let the pup make the retrieve, then set up the next retrieve so that pup can do the right thing and you are ready to get pup stopped quickly on the start. Pup is young and you can turn the pup off to retrieving if you are "fussing" all the time.

I like Crackerd comments about getting other things to retrieve as soon as possible. I have seen grown dogs that will only pick up what the owner has thrown for several months. Different styles of bumpers, sizes, material, etc. make for a nicer dog in the long run. Birds, birds, birds. I keep different species of birds in the freezer from woodcock to ducks. even had a goose one time. Spaniels can pick them all up and deliver. Might as well get them used to carrying big stuff if you have it.

A helper throwing bumpers is critical in teaching marking. The pup will need to go farther than you can toss a bumper at times to make a retrieve. A helper can set up retrieves with different cover changes, over terraces, across streams, etc that you might not be able to do by yourself. When pup is leaving you with enthusiam and drilling marks (with little hunting around for it) then you can add a gunshot from the thrower. The distance is far enough away not to overly startle the pup and pup really understands the retrieving of the item being tossed. The only "new thing" at this point is the gunshot. I would toss the bird or bumper and then shoot the gun when the dog is focused on the retrieve. Then you can progress to a shot first then a toss.

Like Bill T mentioned, having a pup sit to present the retrieve is nice but do not fuss at the dog to do it. You can get that later but for a pup, just let them have fun bringing you the retrieve. Try to make it easy for them to deliver to hand before they drop it and get distracted. You bending over a dog is a dominant position and can cause a dog to want to shy away from you. get on your knees or sit down on the ground so pup can run up into your lap. This is what I mean by making it easy for the pup to want to come in to you. Don't be quick to take the retrieve from the pup. pick up pup if you need to but hold pup and let pup hold the retrieve for a few seconds before taking it. sometimes I let pup loose and pup runs out into the yard then runs back to me with the bumper. This helps encourage pup to carry things around and still finish a nice retrieve to hand.

Pups are fun to watch develop.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:16 pm

When is the right time to start introducing birds? And should the initial ones be dead for him to just retrieve or should they be live so he can flush?

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Sun Mar 31, 2013 8:49 am

Happy Easter everyone! This morning after I got home from work I took Jake for a walk and stopped at a field here in town for a quick training session. Again, just the basics, hup and here and he did very well with both. I left his leash off (usually he drags it but I thought I'd let him have some more freedom to run). He was very responsive. Then as we were just walking around he flushed a dove! I didn't even see it, and it was only about 10 ft from me. Jake stopped in his tracks and watched it fly off and I calmly praised him. Then he found a robin which he chased about 30 ft before giving up and returning to me. I tried a couple retrieves into cover and he jumped right in, but today he did not come running back. He would come half way and then stop or change direction. I decided to run backwards from him and he gave chase so he didn't lose me and forgot about the dummy in his mouth. I tried twice more but had to do the same thing for both so I am going to lay off the retrieves for the next little while. Just make sure his Here is solid and continue hupping him at random. Next time I give him a retrieve it will be indoors where I can ensure he runs in to me and it will only be once. Hopefully if I stop giving him retrieves for a few days he'll come around again.

birdshot · Post by **birdshot** » Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:27 am

Your puppy will be changing teeth soon if not already. Be careful with what he retrieves and how you take it from him during the teething stage.

SpringerDude · Post by **SpringerDude** » Sun Mar 31, 2013 8:45 pm

When in new area's, I expect the pup to do things differently. I do not toss bumpers into cover as much as I once did. I try to keep the bumpers in light cover so pup can be quickly successful. Pup can find stuff in thick cover. I just think that as quickly as they can get the bumper and start back, the less opportunity for pup to get distracted. As they get older, then more cover is fine but by then, they have a great foundation of retrieving and finishing well.

Don't worry about long retrieves. Right now, in a new area, I would only do short retrieves correctly, then move on and let pup explore. Good idea about doing the next retrieves indoors. But I wouldn't necessarily wait a few days.

Teething issues is another great point to consider. When pup starts dropping the bumper and can't seem to carry it back, check to see if there is any blood on the bumper, or check pups mouth for missing teeth. During this time, I usually lay off retrieves until the teeth are in. You do not want to fuss at the pup for dropping the bumper when pups mouth is sore from teething. This can cause issues.

As far as starting pup on birds, I don't want pups handling too many birds early on due to starting bad habits if you are not careful. I do just enough to see pups excitement then back to bumpers. Flushing birds that are not being shot are good for a while. Handling live birds can start a hard mouth problem if pup is young and learns to dispatch birds so that they are easier to handle.

UplandJim · Post by **UplandJim** » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:41 pm

If you want a field trial dog, delete your account from this forum and seek advice from the people who win. If you want a hunting dog then do nothing.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:48 am

There's my boy! 12 weeks now.

DoubleBarrel GunDogs · Post by **DoubleBarrel GunDogs** » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:17 am

12 weeks is a good time to introduce your pup to birds. My 2 springers were on quail at 6 weeks. That is one thing a good gun dog breeder will provide.

Begin your bird introduction with a lock wing pigeon. The bird won't flap, and will not startle the dog. I don't do too much training with dead birds. Its my experience that a live bird is much more interesting to a pup. Besides they need to learn how to handle live birds. As I've posted before, it is very important that you introduce your pup to birds during the imprinting stage (first 20 weeks). It is my opinion that it will be impossible for a dog to reach its full potential if this isn't done.

See George Hickox's intro to birds video on http://www.shootingsportsman.com for a good demonstration.

Nate

FirearmFan · Post by **FirearmFan** » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:23 am

Great looking pup

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:09 am

I second Hickox's Great Beginnings videos. I'm a novice but his videos are clear on technique for the newbie. I've been to his classes a few times over the years and it helps put it all together. I'm really a fan of clicker training now. It has worked well for our first dog, a lab, and you can see it is a huge teaching tool. We introduced the lab to clicker training at about 3 yrs and the dog took to it quickly. However, the pointer we got from Hickox was raised as a clicker dog and her learning with a clicker is amazing.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:55 am

Well thought I'd give an update today on Jake. The last few days I've cooled it on the retrieves as he laid down the last time with 2 of them. So I did a session today in the hallway, just a couple short retrieves and he was fired up about it because he hasn't had it in a few days. I threw him 4 (more than usual) and on the 3rd and 4th ones he was riled right up so I figured it was a great time to stop.

In his second session today, I walked him down to the field/park with my focus being only hup and here. I only give him 2 or 3 "here" whistles when we go out, and he always does these flawlessly no matter what he is preoccupied with. I figured it's better not to overdo this command so it has more meaning. I hope I'm right lol. He was a bit slow a couple times on the hup so I had to position him, but then he gave me a couple nice snappy ones so I decided it was a good time to end that. The rest of our walk included going through some different types of cover - long grass, short grass, sumach, prickly ash, small cedars and fallen logs/branches. He loved it and has a lot more speed when going through cover than when he has wide open ground. Maybe there's more scent in there... or maybe open land is just a bit overwhelming to him, I'm not sure. He also chased a seagull but gave up quick, after 15 ft he decided he couldn't catch it so he just stopped and watched it fly away. He also checked out the water (which I would think is freezing still) but he walked right in (only about 2 inches deep) and had a drink while standing in it. After this we headed home, and he's now passed out at my feet after a good morning.

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:13 am

Your obvious pleasure with your pup, makes me wamt to have a new pup.

"The last few days I've cooled it on the retrieves as he laid down the last time with 2 of them." quote

That's what I do too when I've had enough.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:16 am

Sharon wrote:Your obvious pleasure with your pup, makes me wamt to have a new pup.

"The last few days I've cooled it on the retrieves as he laid down the last time with 2 of them." quote

That's what I do too when I've had enough.

Don't get carried away Sharon.. They pee and poop everywhere lmao

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:44 am

Hickox also wrote a book with someone else on training retrievers. It's called "Hunt 'Em Up" and is still available on Amazon.com. Good book to go with the videos. But it doesn't have clicker training in it.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:14 pm

Friday:

Today's sessions focused on staying when commanded to hup. I blew or told him to hup and kept my hand up while I walked around the room before going back to praise him. The first 3 times he would run to me as soon as I moved but I calmly picked him up placed him back in position where he started and walked again. After being placed back in position a couple of times he realized he needed to stay put until I returned to him and released him with an "OK". I was surprised how quick he picked it up! I only made him stay for about 30 seconds at a time. My goal going forward is to increase the time hupped and the distance between myself and him.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:54 am

Well today while doing a couple retrieves I thought I'd throw a grouse wing for him. The first time he came right back with it, although he was mouthing it a bit as I don't think he knew how to hold it. The second time he only came half way back and laid down and started mouthing it. I called him a couple times and he wouldn't return so I went to him and took the wing. He was trying to swallow it whole!!! So, I guess it's not time for that yet. When I do introduce it to him again, it won't be as just the wing. I'll attach it to a dummy so he doesn't try the same thing again.

DoubleBarrel GunDogs · Post by **DoubleBarrel GunDogs** » Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:15 am

Does anyone else feel that sensation you get from beating your head against the wall?

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:21 pm

Thanks for your positive and thought provoking addition to my thread. It really brought a lot to the discussion :roll:

SpringerDude · Post by **SpringerDude** » Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:34 pm

That's one reason I don't like wings by themself. Too easy to play with and chew on. Frozen birds are good. Taped pigeons work well for young dogs to get some introduction going. Birds have a little action but not enough to scare pup. A few is enough so don't over do it. Pup can start some bad mouth habits and pup isn't old enough to take a lot of negative correction without the risk of pup thinking the fussing is associated with the bird. Might cause pup to start blinking birds.

Birds are new things to pup so don't expect perfect behavior and delivery on first experience. Don't worry about wings on a bumper. plain bumpers are just fine.

Good luck.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:04 am

CDN_Cocker wrote:Thanks for your positive and thought provoking addition to my thread. It really brought a lot to the discussion :roll:

Actually, Cass, DoubleBarrelGundogs has brought a lot to your thread. As have Tim and Bill T. and others. Their suggestions for training a spaniel have been very good and worth glomming onto. When you insist on going your own way with training, you (and the pup) suffer the consequences - and by "reporting" on it, there's ample opportunity' either for criticism (critiquing) or somebody saying "Why bother?"

With retriever training, or retrieving gundog training, you don't have to reinvent the wheel - attempts at which often lead to flat tires for handler and dog alike - you just follow what experienced trainers (or training programmes) have articulated to you. DoubleBarrelGundogs had some of the bettter insights into spaniel pups on this thread. Whether you choose to consider and/or act on them is up to guess who?

MG