introduced gun fire

[big_fish]

I took my 14 week Brittany to a trap shoot at our local club. We parked way off and slowly walked up to the site with treats for not being scared he did great we stuck around for about an hour he showed no interest in the sound and was playing with the kids and digging in the gravel. Then we went for a walk in our dog training fields for about an hour now he sleeps.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

I'm glad things went well for you & the dog but that is worst possible way to introduce gunfire to a pup or adult dog.That very thing has probably ruined more dogs to gun fire then any other & just because you got away with it this time I wouldn't chance it again.I have seen dogs that were hunted over become weary or gun sensitive doing that same thing after you would think it could never happen,for your dogs sake please do some searching & find the correct way to introduce the gun to your pup!!

[Doc E]

There's a big difference between being lucky and doing things right.



.

[birddogger]

I am glad you were lucky.

Charlie

[RoostersMom]

You were very lucky. I suggest that the newbies on here don't try the "gun club" method of teaching a dog to be gunshy. This is one of the quickest ways to ruin a dog if they are at all sensitive.

You're also teaching your dog to ignore gunfire. I prefer a method that teaches the dog to be excited about the gun and to anticipate that a gunshot means that a bird is dropping.

This method works for me:

You would be better off conditioning the dog to know that the gun brings good things (birds). I use the Perfect Start (from Perfection Kennels) which is a several day program to teach the dog that the gun means dead birds. You start with a starter pistol several hundred yards away - assistant shoots. You throw bird in front of the dog. Dog retrieves bird. You keep doing this as you get closer to the blank gun. Shoot and THEN throw the bird. Keep a couple birds in your bag because you're going to throw one that he doesn't see - just throw another one real quick so he sees it. Once you're shooting over top of the dog, you switch to a shotgun - you do so in the same manner that you started the blank gun. This method has the dog looking for a dead bird when they hear a shot, not just walking randomly through the field hearing shots and having no clue. I say several days, some dogs are done in one day. Our GSP pup was done in a day.

[Doc E]

You're also teaching your dog to ignore gunfire. I prefer a method that teaches the dog to be excited about the gun and to anticipate that a gunshot means that a bird is dropping.

That's it in a nutshell.



.

[Higgins]

Here is a video of one of our pups. We introduce him to birds first, then associate the gunfire when he is excited, chasing a bird. Steadying, (no more chasing birds) begins as soon as he is gunproofed. The pup in this video is ready to begin steadying now.

http://vimeo.com/56924329

Brad Higgins
Higgins Gundogs

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

Lots of bad info here.

[campgsp]

I took my 14 week Brittany to a trap shoot at our local club. We parked way off and slowly walked up to the site with treats for not being scared he did great we stuck around for about an hour he showed no interest in the sound and was playing with the kids and digging in the gravel. Then we went for a walk in our dog training fields for about an hour now he sleeps.

I about had a heartache when I started reading this.... Hold on give me a minute to breath....

Ok.. to every newbie,or other, Never ever take a dog to a trap range,shooting range, any place people are having a good time shooting guns to intro gun fire! You where Lucky this time next time you'll live to regret it.

I'm not trying to bash you, just educate. Maybe you didn't know. Pass this on to everyone you know even if they don't own a dog , they might know someone who does. Please for the sake of the dogs and the patience you have left don't do this again. Because fixing a gunshy dog (if possible for said dog) will take all your patience away.

[big_fish]

we did the same thing with our lab and the golden we had before that. We just give a treat for not being scared and if they showed any sign we backed up a few yards and started over we had their toy and would throw it so they were having fun and retrieving and treat for a job well done. we also have a childs cap gun we shoot at feeding time since they were young. The trap range is only done 1 time after that all gun fire is done with birds along the same way that Roostersmom had described. maybe we are just real lucky but we haven't had any gun shy dogs so far.
Thanks for all the info.

[whoadog]

we also have a childs cap gun we shoot at feeding time since they were young.

maybe we are just real lucky

No, you are not lucky. The cap gun at feeding time is what builds the foundation for the trip to the gun club. If everyone using the "gun club method" laid the ground work as you have, there would many fewer gun-shy dogs. That being said, I also agree with Roostersmom in that I want my dogs believing a bird is falling out of the sky some time soon when they see a gun. I may have overdone it with my present crop though. One or two won't even hunt unless they see a gun in my hand. Then, it's game on! Without a gun, though, and they seem to think running around in the field is pointless.

[cjhills]

I have never tried gun range introduction to gun fire and never liked the whole premise. I'm also betting most people on here haven't. If it works for you go for it. As you said in your last post, you will still need to connect the gun with the birds and it is teaching gun tolerence. Some dogs are born knowing gun means game.
There are people who know how to make unorthidox methods work. Cj

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

Proper introduction to birds and guns are the two most important components in gun dog training. Gun and bird problems are not hereditary, they are created 100% of the time. There is no excuse to creating a gun shy dog. If someone tells you they have a gun shy dog ask them how the dog was introduced to the gun. Nearly 100% of the time they will tell you one of these two things that occured. #1. I took him to the gun range or #2. I took the dog hunting and he was afraid of the gun fire.

Nate

[4dabirds]

we did the same thing with our lab and the golden we had before that. We just give a treat for not being scared and if they showed any sign we backed up a few yards and started over we had their toy and would throw it so they were having fun and retrieving and treat for a job well done. we also have a childs cap gun we shoot at feeding time since they were young. The trap range is only done 1 time after that all gun fire is done with birds along the same way that Roostersmom had described. maybe we are just real lucky but we haven't had any gun shy dogs so far.
Thanks for all the info.

Wow this is almost word for word what a guy I work with said to me. He now has two gun shy vislas. I tried to explain it to him but he still does not get it! GUNS = BIRDS. Dogs learn by association this means that they actually associate the gun with whatever it is they are occupied with at the time . If the dog has bird in front and the gun scares the dog the association is negative. Proper gun intro guarantees that the dog makes a good association with birds. Without the proper gun intro you are still leaving your dog open to a bad association of guns with birds. Your dog is not gun proofed by any means . A gun in a duck blind ,multiple guns in the field or a gun in a field near trees with a lot of humidity is a lot different then your previous exposure. It is not about exposure or conditioning it is about association.

[big_fish]

Dogs also learn by repetition and I am not saying we go to a trap shoot every weekend this is a one time trip. I set the dog up with firing the cap pistol at dinner and when we play fetch this is just moving up the scale and I can control it by watching my dog for signs all the while playing fetch and giving a lot of praise. I'm sorry to hear about your buddys vizslas most likely he wasn't doing any ground work in the beginning . I by no means am suggesting that some one find a trap shoot and just take the pup and watch if you haven't worked on the sequential steps up to that point. all the training from the gun club trip on is gun/bird but it is back to starter pistol and work our way back to the shotgun.

[hi-tailyn]

Listen to everyone else that actually knows what they are talking about. :roll:

It is better to do it Right than to be lucky.

Any of the newbies that see how you did gun intro., might follow your misguided directions down the road to a gun shy dog. Probably their one and only hunting dog pet, that if they follow your directions will end up with a pet only, and never get their kids into hunting because they learned that gunfire was bad.

This topic has been brought up over and over. Surprised how many go blindly to the shooting ranges or bang pots and pans over dogs eating.

These are bird dogs. Gun fire = Birds = Gunfire. Excited dog on birds is excited dog hearing gun fire.

I have introduced gunfire to over 40+ pups. Never a gun shy pup doing it with excited pup chasing birds.

Had to fix gun shyness from 2 dogs that were introduced to fire crackers by family, and from shooting range. These were not any dogs that I had bred.
:roll:

It is a lot easier to do it RIGHT than try to fix it down the road. Wrong only takes a few seconds and 3-6 months to fix. If at all possible.

[4dabirds]

Dogs also learn by repetition and I am not saying we go to a trap shoot every weekend this is a one time trip. I set the dog up with firing the cap pistol at dinner and when we play fetch this is just moving up the scale and I can control it by watching my dog for signs all the while playing fetch and giving a lot of praise. I'm sorry to hear about your buddys vizslas most likely he wasn't doing any ground work in the beginning . I by no means am suggesting that some one find a trap shoot and just take the pup and watch if you haven't worked on the sequential steps up to that point. all the training from the gun club trip on is gun/bird but it is back to starter pistol and work our way back to the shotgun.

A lot of words are being thrown around here in relation to the way dogs learn. When you describe your method two words come to my mind acclimation and tolerance. The problem with this is that dogs do not acclimate to stimuli that may be fear inducing nor do they build tolerance . It very well may be that in your method the dog has no averse reaction at the time of the introduction. The problem with it is that there is no association with the bird. Once you start shooting over the dog this association may be built from the repetition of shooting with the birds present. The issue is not so much that you have succeeded in the intro but that you have not built the positive association with the bird. This leaves you open to having the dog make a negative association with the bird somewhere in the future. This can lead to blinking and may not be obvious at the moment it happens.

[ezzy333]

I don't agree with the method used either, but I keep hearing one of the problems is that the dog can't associate the shot with a bird. In my mind that is great and it is what we all do. We make sure the pup is 40 yards away and chasing or playing when we shoot and we make sure the pup doesn't respond to the shot. The very last thing you want is for the pup to associate the shot with a bird simply because if it did shy we sure don't want it connected to a bird. The connection will come in a few days and that will happen the way Big Fish did it or the way the rest of us do it. I don't want to imply in any way that what Big Fish did was right as I think you could prove it is one of the ways most dogs end up gun shy. But the reasoning I keep hearing is absolutely wrong and I don't want new trainers reading this and getting confused with what I think we all recommend.

Shooting cap guns or making loud noises while eating is an excellent way to make sure your pup is not afraid of Cap Guns and loud noises while eating, but has little if any bearing on making sure a dog isn't gun shy. If there was a connection you wouldn't see gun dogs scared of thunder but you do. After you have the pup comfortable with the gun being fired then we will connect the sound, the gun itself, and the smell to birds and hunting. I don't think and sure can't recall ever seeing a dog that didn't connect them after a couple of trips to the field.

Ezzy

[Cicada]

The one time I took my dogs to the Trap Club. They bust the side widow out of the truck canopy and starting running between the the shooters looking for orange pheasants.

Not a good day for the president,,, but the scorer could not stop laughing!

Grant

[big_fish]

Look I understand that some of you done like the way I did it and wouldn't recommend it to a new trainer (and nor would I if you cant read a dog) but this is the way I have learned and done it for 15 years with good results. The very first training program I purchased 15 or so years ago this was the standard for intro to gun and was in many programs .Maybe I'm just to old fashioned and need to look into some new programs or maybe update the way we train .But at any rate the way I do it and the way you do it (I took the high road you took the low) or however you want to say it we both got to the same place the dog is introduced to the gun and I feel isn't gun shy. This may be my first pointing breed dog but the intro is the same for flusher, retriever and pointer. No hard feeling at all I enjoy hearing your input as we all are striving for the same thing and sorry if I made anyone mad maybe next dog I'll try your ways.
Thanks.

[roaniecowpony]

I'm no trainer, but that method sounds risky since you can't control the gunfire only the distance. I help Hickox introduce a dog to gunfire once. I was the shooter with a 410 about 100 + yards away. He watched the dog closely while it was introduced. He looked for any acknowledgement of the shot.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

Big fish,

I hope you don't feel as though I'm piling on, but consider this analogy. You are walking down a street one evening and decide to take an alley as a short cut. Some muggers pull their guns and take your wallet. 5 years later you walk down that same street. When you approach the alley that the mugging took place you pause for a moment. How likely would you be to take that same alley?
This is called imprinting. All dogs learn by imprinting and association. In fact they are much better at it than we are. One of the most important rules to remember in dog training is that things that are very positive and very negative are easily imprinted.

Doesn't it stand to reason that you should make a positive association between birds and gunfire? Do this rather than introducing gunfire in a random fashion, and you'll never develop a gun problem.
Nate

[roaniecowpony]

Big fish,

I hope you don't feel as though I'm piling on, but consider this analogy. You are walking down a street one evening and decide to take an alley as a short cut. Some muggers pull their guns and take your wallet. 5 years later you walk down that same street. When you approach the alley that the mugging took place you pause for a moment. How likely would you be to take that same alley?
This is called imprinting. All dogs learn by imprinting and association. In fact they are much better at it than we are. One of the most important rules to remember in dog training is that things that are very positive and very negative are easily imprinted.

Doesn't it stand to reason that you should make a positive association between birds and gunfire? Do this rather than introducing gunfire in a random fashion, and you'll never develop a gun problem.
Nate

Seems like I heard an old dog man say that.

[big_fish]

I understand where you all are coming from but what was done is done I cant take the intro back and as I stated in the past it is 1 time intro to it and was built up with the cap guns and such. But believe me when I say this is why when I decided to get a pointer I was glad to find this forum to hear different opinions from other trainers I am no pro trainer just a guy with gun dogs that chooses to train them myself. Thanks for all the info and don't be afraid to add more we can all learn more.

[Francois P vd Walt]

[quote="RoostersMom"
You're also teaching your dog to ignore gunfire. I prefer a method that teaches the dog to be excited about the gun and to anticipate that a gunshot means that a bird is dropping.

That's it in a nutshell.



.[/quote]

+1 gunfire & fun go together

[ezzy333]

There are many reasons not to introduce gunfire at a range but I have never understood this teaching gunfire is related to birds when everyone of you including myself advocate starting a pup at a distance when the pup is busy doing something else such as chasing butterflies or bob-o-links or digging for mice and after wards if the pup doesn't associate the noise they heard with anything other than a noise, we start bringing them closer and finally after several sessions and we know the pup isn't gun shy we introduce the bird. The last thing I want to do is associate gunfire with a bird till I know the gunfire is not an issue.

I don't remember having to teach desire as that is a genetic trait that will be honed along the way whether you are intending to or not. If it doesn't show then the pup goes to a pet home and is happy. So many of us try to make this training thing a much bigger deal than it is. Our training is 95% teaching the manners you want and not teaching basic instincts that are already there since those are what we breed for. We can't have it both ways. A good pup will turn out well with good abilities if given a chance to learn. We are there to simply guide it.

As far as going to the gun range was the accepted method a few years ago, if it was it was longer than 50 years ago because we did it back then just like we do now and it worked then too. But I do know more people tried it that way years ago than they do now.

Ezzy

[4dabirds]

Ezzy I know we have had this conversation before . I will adress this with the other readers in mind since you admit you do not agree with attaching the bird to the gun. In your method the bird eventually gets attached to the gun since the dog will get consistent repetitions of gunfire being preceded by the presentation of a bird when hunting. The reason for starting you intro to guns using birds has several reasons. The first one being distraction birds will be the the greatest distracion for a dog so when the dog is catching the pigeon the gunfire becomes a subliminal message. Since dogs perceive things in their environment as safe or dangerous and will avoid things that are deemed dangerous and will look for things that are rewardable , the subliminal message is that gunfire is rewardable and safe. Another reason is that dogs learn by association. Without a single positive association with the bird the dog is open to make a negative association with birds as they relate to guns at a later date. If your method or the range method will work on on 999 dogs in a thousand , who would want to take a chance on that thousandth dog being theirs.

[ezzy333]

Ezzy I know we have had this conversation before . I will adress this with the other readers in mind since you admit you do not agree with attaching the bird to the gun. In your method the bird eventually gets attached to the gun since the dog will get consistent repetitions of gunfire being preceded by the presentation of a bird when hunting. The reason for starting you intro to guns using birds has several reasons. The first one being distraction birds will be the the greatest distracion for a dog so when the dog is catching the pigeon the gunfire becomes a subliminal message. Since dogs perceive things in their environment as safe or dangerous and will avoid things that are deemed dangerous and will look for things that are rewardable , the subliminal message is that gunfire is rewardable and safe. Another reason is that dogs learn by association. Without a single positive association with the bird the dog is open to make a negative association with birds as they relate to guns at a later date. If your method or the range method will work on on 999 dogs in a thousand , who would want to take a chance on that thousandth dog being theirs.

I know that your method works normally but using the same exact reasoning you are is the pup catches the bird, hears the gunshot, and immediately takes it that he did something wrong because you made a loud noise he can't explain other than it was unpleasant and I won't do it again.

Now I admit I don't know how a dogs brain works but I do know if your theory is right then the result could go either way depending whether the loud noise or the fun of catching the bird is the predominant thought. Catch bird +gunshot means good boy or catch bird + gunshot means don't do that again.

I have found out through experience it is wise to eliminate possible confusion that can cause problems depending on how the pup perceives the gunshot. And it does not slow down or deter in any way the desired results. Just eliminates a possible problem we don't need.

Ezzy

[4dabirds]

Well ezzy all things being equal you and I are both firing the gun at a distance that the dog does not respond too. If the dog does not respond to the gun we move closer. If the dog acknowledges the gun in any way we move back. This guarantees no bad association in your way or mine. The difference is as I said without the positive bird association you are allowing a possible negative association with birds and guns when you start to train and the gun is a twelve gauge up close. It is simple association as was demonstrated by Pavlov. The bell equals food the gun equals birds.