Spaniels for upland and ducks

[CDN_Cocker]

With my puppy pick-up fast approaching I wanted to ask some questions. I realize all dogs mature at different speeds and etc so not looking for a time line, but here's my situation. I'm getting an English cocker pup. I plan on using her mainly for grouse, rabbit and waterfowl (I know nothing late season, but I don't duck hunt late into the season anyways as that's grouse time for me). So early season duck, and late season grouse and rabbit. How should I go about training her for this? I know across the pond a lot train for upland the first season and waterfowl the second but realistically for me, I don't grouse hunt much till after deer season (november). So the first season that she will be around for will be ducks. What should I focus on and what order should I be training her? It's next to impossible to find any cocker training related to North America, it's all UK literature. Any help at all would be greatly appreciated. I know I have a lot of training and growing ahead of me before worrying about hunting, just want to start gathering information.

[fourtrax]

Obedience as yard training. Introduce come, stay, kennel etc. early.
Gentle (sneaky) introduction to water.
retrieving as plat time & eventually water.

Introduce pup to WARM water. go in yourself & call pup THIS IS FUNNNN>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[CDN_Cocker]

Good reply fourtrax... looking more along the lines of what program to use though with my girl. This is my first gun dog, and my first experience with a spaniel. I know some people say they are very soft and you have to be careful with how you train them. Don't know what truth there is to this as I have never been around them.

[birdshot]

A good book for spaniels is the book by Jim Spencer. I like Keith Erlandson also but enjoy the way Spencer used photos and elaborates on the American trial formats. With that a Cocker will hunt up anything you toss in tall grass. I like the canvas puppy bumpers. I toss a bumper into the wind and talk silly to the pup as he turns into the wind. When he picks up a bumper I really make a big deal about him finding and usually returning to me with the prize. I don't take the bumper until he is ready to give it to me. Then I give him short retrieve and repeat the process. An 8 week old will surprise you with how quickly they take to fetching what they find. Ocassionally He will bring you a dead carp or other rotting carcass. I mainly just walk them, giving a toot toot when I change directions, during which he may find a couple of bumpers. My experience with spaniels was with springers. The cockers let me know pretty quick they did not like formal drills, but in return for me not drilling they seem to be really in tune to my wants as I hunt. The one I have now is very high energy. I could not imagine leaving him in the house without close supervision. When I got my cocker I was told you own a springer but you wear your cocker. very muddy during the spring.

[TheRiley]

Good reply fourtrax... looking more along the lines of what program to use though with my girl. This is my first gun dog, and my first experience with a spaniel. I know some people say they are very soft and you have to be careful with how you train them. Don't know what truth there is to this as I have never been around them.

That is very much the case. Do not raise your voice and "scold" them for anything or your training session is over. This is nothing to be afraid of though. You will want to be most cautious with introduction the the gun and water.

As fourtrax said...warm water is important. For the gun...My best advice would be to make sure they are plenty birdy before they are introduced to any shots at any distance...then introduce them to a .22 shot at around 100 yards...while retrieving a live bird.

For ducks...I haven't trained or hunted with a cocker but I have a springer and have hunted with several. They do great with ducks. My springer does a good job retrieving geese as well. She always wears a neoprene vest when waterfowl hunting. The only thing I do different than the lab guys is that I bring a towel or two and keep her dry as the weather cools off and I bring a thermal blanket(reflective silver blankets) in case she starts shivering...then I'll keep her out of the water. She will dive right into an icy pond if I let her(I don't). I usually hunt fields late season.

[jhorak]

On the contrary, I have found a harsh voice scolding is exactly what my Cockers often need. If the dog has good breeding, it should be able to take correction without shutting down. If a dog shuts down when given correction, you're only going to get so far in your training. Very, very few people have the patience to train a dog that will not take correction of some sort without shutting down. Obviously, any formal correction is not going to occur until the pup is probably pushing 10 months of age.

Even in the UK, they will "scruff" them by the neck and scold them for PURPOSELY disobeying a command.

What are you looking for in a waterfowl dog? 200 yard blind retrieves with multiple marks? If so, you're going to want to tailor your training to be more like a Lab's training. If you want a dog that can handle out to 75 yards, mark doubles, and is steady to shot, you should be able to get by following Spencer's book. Another decent one I've read that is by someone in the US is Urban Gundog.

You may also look into getting a DVD series if you're really not sure what you're doing. Simon Tyers' has a good series out that I have benefited some from. I believe David Lisett's dvds are also very good from what I've heard.

[crackerd]

Good perspective, jhorak. Cass (CDN_cocker) here's been told that a third way with "soft" spaniels - which really ain't so soft a'tall - is to use the e-collar in a "proactive" way as retriever trainers do. That is, as integral to a retrieving program where collar-use is not a punitive measure but applied dispassionately and sequentially in training up a dog. You tailor the stimulation to fit the dog's temperament, and it works like a charm, yes, particularly with spaniels. I get a kick out of those who start out talking about how "drills" leave a spaniel cold and cowering with distaste - laughable if you know to make the "drills" fun for little dogs by making the "drills" little too (to scale). Never had a gundog to do a better or more enthusiastic job of complying with the dreaded "drills" like the double-T and swim-by than spaniels. Cass, the latter is one you want to look into - though as jhorak noted, you're going to need a retriever program for enlightenment. You can check out one of your fellow Canadians' free online offerings - http://www.retrieversonline.com/swimby.htm leading up to shelling out for that program or programme.

MG

[CDN_Cocker]

Wow great replies!!!! Yes, I have the urban gundog book as well as the Simon Tyers dvd set. Both are great just trying to soak in as many different opinions and methods as possible. Mike has been quite helpful in opening my eyes to different ways to train spaniels and I like everyone else's opinions too. As for waterfowl - I don't hunt big water or late in the season so I'm not super concerned about long retrieves etc (otherwise I would've got a lab). I am first and foremost a ruffed grouse nut and enjoy the occasional duck hunt. That being said though, I want to make sure my dog has the training to retrieve ducks and not be a complete menace in the blind or on shore and give me an aneurysm when I should be enjoying the hunt.

[Hattrick]

Join a local NAVHDA chapter its a few up there.
Good luck

[SpringerDude]

Training for duck hunting in the first year will basically be Sit, Stay, and retrieve to hand. Think of these as essentials for safety reasons as much as practical duck retrieving reasons.

You can always tether a dog in the blind or close to it if dog is not totally steady. Retrieve to hand is nice to see but I view it as a safety issues as much as a nice to see thing. Think about how a duck blind looks. Close quarters and guns loaded and propped up. A crippled duck loose in the blind with a dog trying to catch it is a disaster waiting to happen. Also if more than one duck is down, you don't want the dog to drop a cripple and then start out after another duck.

Marked retrieves should be easy to train for. Blinds and advanced handling will be training during and after the duck hunting. You might also want to practice this summer with pup going through the duck hunting scenario. Will there be a boat involved? Then get pup used to getting in and out of the boat. Decoys? Better lay some around the yard and on the edge of the water and get pup used to seeing them. Will you be jump shooting? Then take pup for walks along the creek or stream or backwater sloughs.

Some of these things might be more "on the job training" and if so, then keep your expectations in the right perspective. It does take training AND experience to eventually make a great dog. Training skills is always a starting point but a dog doesn't always stick with the training when in new circumstances. The more you try to duplicate what pup will actually be seeing and doing, the easier the transitions into the real thing.

Just more food for thought.