HuntSmith Puppy vs. Hickox Great beginnigs

[mountaindogs]

Can someone summerize the similarities and differences between these two DVD sets and give me your opinion on which you prefer?

I am talking about the Hickox newer DVD with Clicker incorported.

[Sharon]

When it comes to quality training programmes such as these, you can't say one is better than the other.... different philosophies , same goals - a well trained gun dog

Read up on the philosophies of the men behind behind these programmes , and decide which one appeals to you. ( Closeness of their training schools / weekend seminars might be a factor in your choice also.)

http://www.georgehickox.com/about_georg ... icles.html

http://www.ronniesmithkennels.com/

[tn red]

I have the Great beginnings dvd you can have if you choose that direction.

[4dabirds]

I attended Georges seminar and I specifically asked him what he thought the difference between his seminar and the smith seminar . He said notification is the difference. His program uses the clicker to notify the dog when it exhibits a wanted behavior. He also uses a a negative notifier as the word no , and then incorporates that into his work with the e-collar. This creates continuity across the program to help the dog understand what behaviors are rewardable as well as correctable. Speaking for myself I have had great success with his program.

[mountaindogs]

Tn red, sent you a PM

Sharon, I've read both websites and it seems to me they are founded on the same concept of the birds train the dogs. I am unclear how they are really different other than hickox uses clicker and "no " markers. Can you elaborate on the theory or methodology for me. Smith is quiet and does not deal with commands much, but then really hickox seems follow this philosophy a bit also...

[Chukar12]

I will take a crack at this but first offer the caveat that the differences are a matter of my personal observations and Hickox or Smith may or may not agree...I sorta feel their eyes rolling now...
Both incorporate behaviors before commands. I believe the most fundamental difference is that Hickox starts with a variation of operant conditioning before any compulsion and Huntsmith starts with a bit more hands on and while the compulsion is light most behaviors are cued by a human. Translated...Huntsmith..gentle hands on, Hickox...mostly hands off in the puppy stage.

From there many things are similar in the breaking process, Hickox' avoidance methods with the e-collars are very effective and take very little out of the dog but more complicated (IMO) and your timing has to be better because you are cuing off the dog and not your own control of the dog.

I will also say this that i believe clicker training is a great way to practice timing without great risk in dog training, and many folks struggle with reading a dog and timing their training pro-actions and reactions.

[hill]

I attended a Huntsmith seminar several years ago and two guys (they trained and guided for a large plantation) in the group had trained with Hickox enough that they knew him personally. I know they talked to Rick and George about each others programs but their personal opinions were that either one worked just as well as the other.

[roaniecowpony]

I'm a little late in commenting here but I'll try to add some value.

I've only attended Hickox's classes (3), not the Smiths. I do have a dog from George that came to me as a trained 2 year old.

This past summer, George brought a litter of pointer pups to his class and demostrated the method of zero pressure/"reward the behavior" pup training. Some of his students bought pups. One student, who I'd seen at a class a few yrs earlier, was using Hickox's methods during the few days we were there. The clicker/reward method is impressive to watch. Pups learn at a pace that the trainer has to keep up with. In the early stages a "target" (foam ball on a stick") is one of the tools used to get a behavior. The pup is curious when it sees the target and approaches it. An identifier (click) marks the desired behavior and a reward is given (treat). As the pup learns that approaching the target get rewarded, a little more effort is required to get a reward such as actually touching the target with its nose. Once that is learned, the target is used as a lure to expand the pups effort. Eventually, the pup is up and standing on a whoa board. Standing on the whoa board is part of advanced training much later in the dog's training but the pup is already learning its a good thing to stand on the board. This all happens at a pace that has to be seen to believe. It literally took a matter minutes from a pup that hadn't done anything to running over jumping on and standing on the board ... all without a word. The video shows this but in person its super impressive.

George's methods for pups with the clicker are the "ying" part of "ying n yang". The reward side of training without the correction side. All positive, no negative. When the e-collar is used after collar conditioning later, the low stimulation "notification" is the opposite or balance of the clicker for a corection with the collar. If you've read George's book "Hunt Em Up" or been to a class or seen his videos, you know that he teaches you that dogs learn by association. In the above training, the pup quickly associates a behavior with the clicker and then treat. Later in it's life, the dog will have this learning skill of association put to use when corrections are introduced and the trainer wants the dog to associate corrections with undesired behavior.

I can tell you the dog will be extremely receptive to new learning years later. We had our dog going thru a dog door within a minute and fully trained for it within a few minutes using a clicker. No further training for the door was required. Of course the dog door training was part of our house breaking.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

Once you get hands on training with the clicker and buy in to the Hickox system you'll never turn back.
However this doesn't happen instantly with most people. Even of those who attend a seminar there are at least 2 out of 10 who won't give in to their old methods. The same can be said for people who attend a Smith seminar, and are taught the simplicity and value of the chain gang and the wonder lead. The DVDs are great, but are really just a guide and review to learning the system. I like a lot of things that Rick Smith does, and have incorporated several of his ideas in to my own system, but I am still a Hickox guy.

Nate