Training on WALKING birds

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LaTexCLB
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Training on WALKING birds

Post by LaTexCLB » Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:26 am

I have a 15 month old GSP that is completely steady to wing-shot-fall, has retrieved every bird ever shot completely to hand, and pretty well honors naturally. She reliably points birds that are still (i.e. planted, or even if simply "dropped" and they burrow up into grass on their own). She has had one pass on her Senior Hunter test so far. However, if the bird is up and walking around when she comes up on it - - sometimes the walking birds are too much enticement and she busts the birds. I've only had this phenomenon of busting 'walking' birds happen in Hunt Tests.

Here's the question to the group. Does anyone have a good technique for keeping birds up and walking for training situations? I've put out birds simply tethered to fishing line without any dizzying at all. All of my quail in training exercises want to hunker down. When I've put them in places with virtually no cover - they simply squat down. I don't have a problem with her creeping if I force the birds to walk AFTER she's established point. I can drag the birds under her body, make them flop around, etc. -- and she is steady AFTER establishing point. What I've yet to figure out during a training exercise - - where I can correct her - - is how to:
1. Put out birds with a fair sense of where they will be for training situations
2. Keep the birds up and walking around before my dog gets to them
3. Observe my dog coming up on the walking bird in order to CORRECT and train against going in on WALKING birds.

Any thoughts / suggestions from this group would be appreciated. THANKS!
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Sharon
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Re: Training on WALKING birds

Post by Sharon » Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:31 am

Buy poor flying pigeons or you could experimet with a weight that you can attach to the birds leg that will keep it from flying until released but allow it to walk around. :)
Last edited by Sharon on Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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topher40
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Re: Training on WALKING birds

Post by topher40 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:01 am

Put him in a flight pen............
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smittty
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Re: Training on WALKING birds

Post by smittty » Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:09 am

first it dont sound like she's competly steady to wing shot-fall ...sounds like she's been trained with pen riased birds... she is still a puppy and cant hepl her self this is norm..... use a luancher and just keep poping birds when she moves and dont kill any for her unless she is stready... she'll get it she's young yet

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brad27
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Re: Training on WALKING birds

Post by brad27 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:36 pm

Don't feed the birds for a day. Put feed out in the area you plant birds before you train. Plant bird near food. Birds should walk around eating feed. I've never tried this, but I think it might work.

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uplandrsb
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Re: Training on WALKING birds

Post by uplandrsb » Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:42 pm

I would use a tether is this situation. On a pigeon preferably. You can control the bird and move it around as needed. As others said, she is still young and that can be lots of pressure .. Again launchers will help to. You have plenty of time

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mountaindogs
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Re: Training on WALKING birds

Post by mountaindogs » Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:10 pm

Funny you should post this today. I also have one that will bust up a running bird. Little different than yours though. Never breaks point unless I go in to flush and the birds then start to run. If I use launchers he is steady as stone since the birds are still and hold through release on them. I was mentally trying to figure a way to train him steady with walking birds while NOT using launchers. I think I need a helper and a pigeon on a string maybe. He doesnt jump in on dead/still birds at all so dragging a bird around would still have to be live. But it seems so much pressure and dont want to drop his style at all...
when you shoot a bird and it's winged the dog is allowed to catch. I need a way for the dog to learn catch on a retrieve command is good, but all other times 100% not allowed.
The problem is the pen raised birds. :( I get angry when the answer is always train the dog on wild birds. I WOULD LOVE TO but east TN has not had wild birds in decades. But now the bird dogs have to hunt and hold on stupid birds. So I need a real way to train the dog not just the "better birds" answer. Hunt test birds and game farm birds are rarely "better" birds.

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Re: Training on WALKING birds

Post by mountaindogs » Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:53 pm

To the OP
Suppose you had a helper with the dog. You put out birds with a tether and staked thrm down but stayed near them where you can see the dog coming in. Position youself so that you can stop "whoa " the dog before she jumps in and then let the helper release the dog towards you and the birds.
also can try a launcher with bird in front of the walking bird. Giving her the idea that she might lose a bird if she bumps the runner. Come to think of it of you do this a few times do you think she might come to expect a flush and thus trigger a mental stop when she sees the walking bird. ie walking bird becomes cue for a flushing bird.

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Re: Training on WALKING birds

Post by BellaSpinone » Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:07 pm

Pull flight feathers on one wing.

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Re: Training on WALKING birds

Post by h&t » Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:01 pm

I tethered chukars and pigeons and let them walk in front of the dog, if they walk away or try to fly away - pull back with the tether and repeat. I didn't do it enough though :lol: Consider multiple birds - at UT test 2 chukars were running in front of my dog....

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4dabirds
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Re: Training on WALKING birds

Post by 4dabirds » Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:52 pm

pigeon pole. Eight foot pipe with a tether to the bird. The bird can fly but still lands within sight of the dog. The dog needs to visually see the bird and be trained to respond properly to understand what is expected. If your dog is going to be in a situation you need to train for it. Expecting the dog to do one thing and learn another is expecting too much. The lesson you are teaching is for the dog to see a bird and still point it . Don't confuse this training with the dog having to be in a hunting situation for this to work. The dog just needs the experience .

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Hattrick
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Re: Training on WALKING birds

Post by Hattrick » Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:16 pm

Pull the flight feathers on one wing when you plant the bird. You can do that in that in ur yard, just make him stand them. I would get away from giving him evety retrieve it creates anticipation problems, start giving him only 1 out of 3. Use it as a reward for good bird work.

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Sharon
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Re: Training on WALKING birds

Post by Sharon » Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:45 pm

h&t wrote:I tethered chukars and pigeons and let them walk in front of the dog, if they walk away or try to fly away - pull back with the tether and repeat. I didn't do it enough though :lol: Consider multiple birds - at UT test 2 chukars were running in front of my dog....
Exactly what i was going to say. You have to think outside the box -2-3 walking , one flying 2 walking etc. and even then something will happen that you didn't think about. :)
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Re: Training on WALKING birds

Post by jcbuttry8 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:25 pm

topher40 wrote:Put him in a flight pen............
I believe that someone posted a video not to long ago, of training their dog that had moved on walking birds in a trial. They had the dog on point in a green house and loaded it with birds. They ran the birds from one end to the other with the dog in the middle on point. There were birds running in front, behind and underneath the dog. Looked like a pretty good method to get the dog to understand absolutely no moving, no matter what the bird does.

Was at a trial last year, the dog went on point and as we rode up the dog looked like it was going to come unglued. The bird had walked right underneath of the dog, and was still there when we got to it. I truly felt for the dog. Not sure it had been in that situation before but never moved. Not sure he won but do know he was used. I was impressed.

Who doesn't love pen raised birds!!!

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Re: Training on WALKING birds

Post by Saddle » Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:20 pm

I like to do the walking birds thing while I'm whoa breaking a dog. Keeps the dog focused and you can get a lot done as far as keeping him place when he's on a barrel. I do a lot of flushing with the dogs and walking birds around them during the whoa breaking process. It seems to make things for smoother during the breaking process. Like one poster said earlier your dog isn't completely broke. Doesn't sound like he's far off but just not there yet.

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Re: Training on WALKING birds

Post by jczv » Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:31 pm

You can try one of these: http://www.gundogsupply.com/-3708-.html

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bonasa
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Re: Training on WALKING birds

Post by bonasa » Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:03 pm

I used a wing clipped quail planted for the dog. We were already at the point of having the belly band (e-collar around waist) in place for steady training. She would establish a point and I would flush the bird/fire a shot. If she looked like she would break at the flush or shot a verbal whoa and a light stim kept her in check. Worked wonders on New England grouse that run, strut and march along a rock wall in front of the dog.

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mrcreole
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Re: Training on WALKING birds

Post by mrcreole » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:55 pm

I use a hobbled bird planted in the open.

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mountaindogs
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Re: Training on WALKING birds

Post by mountaindogs » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:07 pm

Something to keep in mind:
I did the hobbled quail back when training my dog Jed. Now he hesitates on a retrieve if the bird is winged but not dead and he will re-point often getting pretty sticky on the release again. I know he could retieve these when sent and he is soft mouthed when he does, but still it makes for a lot of head tapping and then he is often less steady on the next runner. He seems to confuse these situations a bit. Just balencing out the downside and from now on I am hoping to make the commands for sending on for a retrieve more distinct from other release or hunt in commands, and spend a little time with the difference. Still working out exactly how to set that up though without too much either way.

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campgsp
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Re: Training on WALKING birds

Post by campgsp » Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:51 am

I just have birds walking around and under them while on woah. A few weeks of this and they become accustomed to the situation.

I think setting this up in a controlled hunting situation would be hard to do. Most birds are going to just hunker down in cover regardless.

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Re: Training on WALKING birds

Post by mountaindogs » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:47 am

campgsp wrote:I just have birds walking around and under them while on woah. A few weeks of this and they become accustomed to the situation.

I think setting this up in a controlled hunting situation would be hard to do. Most birds are going to just hunker down in cover regardless.
Is your dog on a table? How do you "end" the situation? Especially the first few times when the dog is barely used to it and the dog is obeying but WANTS to break and catch. Do you pick up the dog and move them or pick up the birds or how do you get the dog out of the situation without "releasing" the whoa when birds are still around?

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Re: Training on WALKING birds

Post by campgsp » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:46 am

mountaindogs wrote: Is your dog on a table? How do you "end" the situation? Especially the first few times when the dog is barely used to it and the dog is obeying but WANTS to break and catch. Do you pick up the dog and move them or pick up the birds or how do you get the dog out of the situation without "releasing" the whoa when birds are still around?
I start on the table and have a bird tethered to a line running across the table pole to pole.
I remove the bird first before allowing them to heel off the table. When I move to the ground that is where I teach them heel off the bird.

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deseeker
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Re: Training on WALKING birds

Post by deseeker » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:10 am

topher40 wrote:Put him in a flight pen............
+1 All kinds of birds flying around and running around--it really tests a dog. If a dog can handle that, it can handle almost anything :D

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mountaindogs
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Re: Training on WALKING birds

Post by mountaindogs » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:28 am

I assume then the dog can see the bird but not quite reach at first?

Re: flight pen.... Just a side note but I have seen 2 setters bird shy from this. Note sure the actual circumstances but saw after the fact. It was overwhelming to them and freaked them out. Was fixable in 1, but don't know about the other. Just an FYI

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deseeker
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Re: Training on WALKING birds

Post by deseeker » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:27 am

mountaindogs wrote:I assume then the dog can see the bird but not quite reach at first?

Re: flight pen.... Just a side note but I have seen 2 setters bird shy from this. Note sure the actual circumstances but saw after the fact. It was overwhelming to them and freaked them out. Was fixable in 1, but don't know about the other. Just an FYI
I agree, everyone needs to be sure their dogs are up to the bird pen. These setters must of never been used on wild bobs---a doz birds flying and running around a pen isn't much more startling(probably less startling) than a doz wild bobs blowing out in a covey in front of a setters nose. I'll bet the second setter wasn't any good on coveys--probably okay on singles(IMO)

The bird pen has worked good on my britts, my buddy's brit and EP, and my other buddy's wife's Irish---but all dogs were bold & used to birds when submitted to the bird pen. The Irish loved the bird pen so much, it would run(hard to run when you're 13) to the pen and would whine until you let him in and run the birds around him. He was like a coiled spring and just quivered with intensity---it made his day :D

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