Creeping on point question

dougroch · Post by **dougroch** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:31 pm

Over the course of this season my 14 mo old britt has gone from no clue to bird crazy hunting a mix of quail and ruffed grouse. Only since late December has he become reliable locking up on point when he locates a bird as opposed to busting up every bird he smells. We did enough WHOA training in the fall that he knows what it means plus a few nights a week since in the yard reinforcing. When he locks up on point I intentionally drag it out working up to where he and the bird are with a calm firm WHOA every time I see a paw move and then finally after 2-3 minutes of him on point I will flush the bird. I have a hunting buddy who has 2 dogs who says no I should be flushing the bird asap before the thought of creeping even crosses the dogs mind. Need opinions on what you all think would generally be the best technique, mine or his.

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:37 pm

making the dog stand for a few minutes at 14 mos old seems unnecessary. go in, flush the bird. save that for later until he stops moving after faster flushes.

rinker · Post by **rinker** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:02 am

Fast or slow, I would stop saying 'Whoa'.

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:34 am

rinker wrote:Fast or slow, I would stop saying 'Whoa'.

don't whoa it into a point obviously, but if you're in front of it going to flush and it moves what do you do?

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:41 am

rinker wrote:Fast or slow, I would stop saying 'Whoa'.

+1 on that. Keep you mouth shut.

I would also say that just standing there and waiting for the dog to move is not a good idea. You are setting the dog up for failure...not success. That needs to come later, in the bombproofing phase, but not now. There HAS to be a consequence for the dog moving...and that consequence HAS to be that the bird leaves.

The pointing thing HAS TO BE between the dog and the bird. Whoa is, in my opinion, an obedience command and it means ...stop and stand still...do not move a toenail. It has NOTHING to do with birds.

I suggest that you continue to work with the dog on steadiness, but with this change... If the dog moves so much as a a toenail after it has established point...the bird is in the air. Then you go to the dog, physically pick it up off the ground, walk back a step or two and gently put the dog down and style it up. Then after 30 seconds or so with you standing right there... collar the dog and move on.

How you accomplish putting the bird in the air is up to you and what you have available. If you have remote launchers...great. Dog moves, press a button and bird is gone. Then you go to the dog, physuically pick it up.... If you have manual launchers, and have an assistant...dog moves, assistant pulls string and bird is gone. Then you go get the dog, physically pick it up....

If you are working with planted birds, and they should be LIGHTLY planted, by the way, wild birds or birds in kick cages, you should have birds in a bird bag and be ready to toss one across the dog's field of view the instant the dog moves a toenail. Then you go to the dog...well... you know the rest.

The key with all of these tactics is to get the dog to understand that if it moves at all after it establishes point... there is no joy...the bird is gone, and boss is not happy.

If the dog persists in moving, it is sometimes useful to actually release the dog and drive the dog right into the bird and force it to flush the bird, after which you go to the dog, pick it up, etc....

Just remember the more you keep it between the dog and the bird, the better it will turn out. The more you interfere and distract the dog with your voice or actions when the dog is in the scent cone and pointing, the more problems you are going to have. Keep quiet, move purposefully, flush as gently as you can.

And do not forget to give the dog a pat or two on the flank when they do it right...even if it comes after you have to go pick the dog up. Positive reinforcement. Let the dog know that is what you expected.

RayG

M1Tanker · Post by **M1Tanker** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:19 pm

Good post by RayG but I would add emphasis that you need to work up to where the dog cannot be allowed to chase them when they flush. I am pretty sure he meant that by his description of what to do when the bird flies (pick up the dog) as he is in essence describing making a dog stand flushed birds.

Something I learned (when the last one of mine gave me fits with creeping) was that creeping is a symptom of something else, not a stand-alone problem. What I found was that the creeping was what the dog did because he was anticipating the flush, at which point he would chase. Take the chase away and 90% of the battle is over...my .02.

Maurice · Post by **Maurice** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:56 am

M1Tanker wrote:Good post by RayG but I would add emphasis that you need to work up to where the dog cannot be allowed to chase them when they flush. I am pretty sure he meant that by his description of what to do when the bird flies (pick up the dog) as he is in essence describing making a dog stand flushed birds.

Something I learned (when the last one of mine gave me fits with creeping) was that creeping is a symptom of something else, not a stand-alone problem. What I found was that the creeping was what the dog did because he was anticipating the flush, at which point he would chase. Take the chase away and 90% of the battle is over...my .02.

Lots of good advice in this topic and I can't add much.. I will say that trying to take the creep out before the chase is out of a dog can cause problems with sty;e and also can cause flagging because the corrections are happening while the bird is still on the ground. You will also notice that once the chase is out of the dogs that their nose seems to improve because they are pointing birds at more distances.. The nose has not improved but the dog has learned to respect the bird imo.

Mo

Gooseman07 · Post by **Gooseman07** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:53 am

I agree with all the above comments. i've also found that when the dog anticipates the retrieve, they do a lot more creeping. In October my boy would creep a lot after the flush, I stopped allowing him have every retrieve, I would go pick up some birds, he stopped creeping after the flush and shot.

Maurice · Post by **Maurice** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:24 am

Gooseman07 wrote:I agree with all the above comments. i've also found that when the dog anticipates the retrieve, they do a lot more creeping. In October my boy would creep a lot after the flush, I stopped allowing him have every retrieve, I would go pick up some birds, he stopped creeping after the flush and shot.

That is right on the money too...

Mo

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