Finds the birds, but doesn't retrieve

vartz04 · Post by **vartz04** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:04 pm

Am I missing something here or do I need to do some training, or is this just lack of experience for the dog?

Dog is a 9 Month old Weim. He has been hunting a handful of times. Always retrieves bumpers/toys that I throw and brings them back to me no problem. When in the field both times he has pointed and then jumped in on the bird. I shot the bird both times (far from the dog and he is broke to the gun) Always looks around when other hunters shoot (public land) but isn't startled by it just looks around like there should be a bird falling somewhere.

Both times that I have downed the bird (first one dead in the air 2nd one a cripple) he hasn't even gone looking for the bird. I walk in that direction and he usually points the bird again and then jumps in on it and grabs it. The Cripple didn't bother him he just brought it the 5 steps to me and gave it up.

So why is it that he doesn't retrieve? I really don't care about him flushing the birds, he is a weim (read velcro dog) and doesn't range much farther than I can shoot and the 30 second or so points he does are enough for me to close the gap. Im not training a field dog I just want to shoot birds over him. I would appreciate it if he retrieved them too though.

ckgsp · Post by **ckgsp** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:08 pm

You need to force break him. You should also teach him to whoa so he holds his point until you want him to move.

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:42 pm

Dogs dont always have retrieving desire even labs sometimes dont, while others do it right of the gate. You will need to FF the dog and over lay it to shot birds.

vartz04 · Post by **vartz04** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:48 pm

He's still a pup so ill work on the woah later. The force fetch as well. Thanks guys. I was just confused because he retrieves toys fine.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:32 am

You say he retrieves toys and bumpers fine ....so he does retrieve. Did you try moving on from bumpers , to bumpers with bird wings attached, from them to cold game perhaps with a section of ladies tights over the bird ? Try making his retrieving a progression with each stage leading on to the next and then the final stage of a fresh shot bird.

Bill T.

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:24 am

Hattrick wrote:Dogs dont always have retrieving desire even labs sometimes dont, while others do it right of the gate. You will need to FF the dog and over lay it to shot birds.

This is absolutely correct. The desire to retrieve is not universal, even in dogs of a retrieving breed. It happens. A full course of force fetch using a modern, sequential program will yield an efficient and reliable retrieve. Don't be side tracked by outdated archaic notions that force fetch is somehow harsh or barbaric. That is not the case, and hasn't been for a long time. Just follow a course that is modern and proven, and you'll be fine. If you can enlist the coaching of a competent pro, so much the better.

EvanG

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:55 am

Have you made a decision about how to proceed?

EvanG

vartz04 · Post by **vartz04** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:12 pm

Yes ill let it be this season then work on wish training and force fetch in the off season

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:22 pm

Went through this problem with my Vizla. She absolutely loved to retrieve bumpers but would refuse a bird. She would point, run out to pick up the bird, but then only mouth it. I went back to the yard and only threw a frozen bird for her, no more bumpers. If she did not immediately retrieve it, I quit for the day. After about a week or two she decided retrieving birds was better than retrieving nothing and the problem went away.

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:26 pm

Wait, I just re-read the original post. Let me get this straight, two birds shot, one dead, one cripple. Dead one is re-pointed then grabbed, cripple sounds like it was actually retrieved. So.....what's the problem?

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:28 am

Yeah: you do not really have problem. What have your really done with retrieving drills that involve birds?
You have a dog that actually likes the birds, grabbed a cripple etc. The pup is only 9 months. Once the pups prey drive, bird desire, what ever you want to call is real strong. Learn how to FF and do it. You will like it and your pup will understand what you reall want.

Bill (Trekmor) does his retrieving work with out ff. If you want to do it his way do that but get that drive and desire for live and dead bird high.

vartz04 · Post by **vartz04** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:52 am

He didn't go find either bird on his own. He just started hunting again and I had to walk him over within like 10 feet of the bird so he would grab it.

will-kelly · Post by **will-kelly** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:19 pm

At 9 months there is so much going on in a dogs development that can't be seen that I would caution you to try and redirect the dog's development to your plan and not his natural development.

If you have to walk the dog over to find the downed bird then your title of this post is incorrect. Having no desire to follow up on a downed bird shows a weakness in natural hunting desire and instinct. Get the dog on more birds. Make the birds the only stimulation for a while. No more fetch at home. Just hunting. The bird becomes the reward.

A dog can be taught to do anything. What you can't teach is natural hunting instinct. In my opinion at 9 months old you let them run. You can always pull them back in with training.

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:42 pm

I agree , go shoot birds for the season, have fin and his confidence and drive should grow. Save a fee birds in the freezer and use them in the yard. Make a fun and if he does retrieve one, make a celebration over it. I also agree with using the dummies with wings attached first.

vartz04 · Post by **vartz04** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:04 am

I assume you are right in the instinct thing. I have no idea of this dogs breeding history. I think I just got lucky and found one that wasn't bred from lines that were only show dogs. He hunts and finds birds, flash points, points for short times, ect. The fact that he finds birds is enough for me really. He works in close enough that bumping them doesnt bother me. I guess I am not like the rest of you guys on here. I don't care to have a perfect gun dog that does exactly what its breed is supposed to do. All I want is a hunting buddy that will stay in gun range and bump the birds (should of gotten a springer I guess because he would be doing perfect at this point with the bird work minus retrieving)

That being said he is figuring it out more and more every bird he comes across. He goes in slower or points longer because he is realizing he can't catch them. I am going to give the whole bird launcher thing a try in the off season though to see if I can get him to hold points.

Also I took the pheasant I killed last week (frozen) and played fetch with him in the yard with it. after a few tosses he started to bring it right back to me (first 1 it took him about 3 minutes to pick it up and bring it to me 2nd one was about 30 seconds and then from there he was just picking it up and bringing it back) Hopefully this means with a little more experinence and some training in the off season I can get him into retrieving. I am going out again on thursday so we will see what he can do.

As far as woah training I have him to the point where I can throw food on the ground and my other half's mini dachshund will run over and start eating it and he won't move if I say woah. I just need to transfer that over to birds.

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:05 pm

Ok, so the problem is he won't go to the fall on shot birds. I go back to my original adivice. Work him in the yard retrieving birds instead of dummies. You say he will run to the fall and retrieve those, so, do the same drill with a frozen bird. The first session only, throw a bumper/ball/toy, whatever he likes best. After that, throw the frozen bird. From then on, throw only a bird. Wiems and Vs, especially females, can be a little wimpy when it comes to feathers in their mouths. That may be part of the problem. Freezing the bird lets you re-use it and will "fasten" the feathers down for a retrieve or two. Give it about a week and don't work him on anything but retrieving the bird. If he runs out and picks it up, give him another retrieve. As soon as he shows disinterest, stop whether that is on the first retrieve or the tenth.

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:31 pm

wow, i'm an idiot. didn't read what you have already done. too big a hurry to post i guess. keep up the good work!

pointer · Post by **pointer** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:01 pm

The dog doesn't have enough bird work or birds shoot over it. It isn't marking the bird because it has had two flushed and shoot which isn't equivalent to a basic training day situation. Hunt the dog for a year or so and get a bigger sampling of what it actually will do in the field. Two reps are not enough to even make an opinion over.

On a second note, dogs that retrieve objects well at home does not always translate to good retrieving of birds in the field. I have seen dogs retrieve anything at home or in the field totally refuse to pick up birds. If this ends up being an issue, force fetching will be your best option. Frozen birds at home can work or make things better, but I have also seen it not work.

Enjoy your dog in the field for a while before you develop your final opinion.

vartz04 · Post by **vartz04** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:48 pm

I am going out with my dad in the morning to the same place again. We have a permit for 4 birds this time so that should help get some more practice for him (2 for each of us). I also spent the week thus far doing mini training sessions with the frozen pheasant from last time out. He seems to be getting more and more into retrieving the dead bird as the week goes on. He made about 10 retrieves of varying difficulty today before starting to lose interest.

Like I had said previously I will try to get him to do the things a good bird dog of his breed should do. I am not going to sweat over it. He finds birds that I can shoot and isn't a trouble maker in the field. That is all I really want for the amount of hunting I do. When I get to the point where I have more vacation time and money I am sure I will want a more standard type of pointing dog because I will be able to travel and hunt more. By that time though this guy will be long gone.

Thanks for all of the advice guys. I will hopefully be able to get some decent pictures tomorrow since my dad will be there to be the gun man and I can focus more on the dog. Time to repay my dad for all of those hunting excursions he took me on.

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