High Tails ?

copper · Post by **copper** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:22 am

I Have a 5 mo old setter, is there any benifit to having an "High Tail" and should I be stroking it up while training whoa?

Or is this only for show and trials.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:29 am

There are very few times I feel the need to put my hands on the dog during training......he will carry his tail how he's programmed from birth to carry it.

Laying hands on a pointing dog is a form of pressure that can easily be overdone.... A dogs tail is what it is. Keep pressure in training low and he will carry his tail as high as he can.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:16 am

copper wrote:...Or is this only for show and trials.

Show DURING a trial

Has absolutely NO affect on how the dog hunts. If you never trial, show, or care...don't worry about it.

At 5 months old the muscle memory is beginning and not all there yet. With development, growth and intensity, if the genetics are there, you should not have to do anything. But slight stroking does not hurt. Like posted before, when training be cautious how much "hands on pressure" you use.

I see you are from Appleton, where did you get your setter? Setters are beautiful, let's see some picts. Here is my youngster...

2012-12-01guyD.jpg

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:58 am

I always thought the high tails were breed into the american lines because you could see the dog on point in the tall prairie grasses better? Is that a myth? Personally, with setters, I prefer the low tail straight back. However on GSP and GWP I love a 10 - 11 o'clock tail.

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:01 pm

Yes that is the reason.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:47 pm

I have said before... I love the rigid intense straight OUT tail on the long tailed dogs. Makes a lovely

------>

rather than

I__I

I am however growing to enjoy the 11oclock short tails. Too often the straight up tails end up less than straight although pointing up

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:45 pm

mountaindogs wrote:I have said before... I love the rigid intense straight OUT tail on the long tailed dogs. Makes a lovely

------>

rather than

I__I

I am however growing to enjoy the 11oclock short tails. Too often the straight up tails end up less than straight although pointing up

I agree that the 10 to 11 tails are much more natural and attractive looking.

Another point that always concerns me is how many people confuse tailset and tail carriage. The two have little in common.

Ezzy

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:50 pm

birddog1968 wrote:There are very few times I feel the need to put my hands on the dog during training......he will carry his tail how he's programmed from birth to carry it.

Laying hands on a pointing dog is a form of pressure that can easily be overdone.... A dogs tail is what it is. Keep pressure in training low and he will carry his tail as high as he can.

+1

jimssetters · Post by **jimssetters** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:27 pm

IMO it never hurts to help a dog a little with style. I personally like a high tail, they look like a million bucks.

larue · Post by **larue** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:28 pm

I have owned dogs who hate being touched on point,my old dog max,eva hated being touched.Now hope loves it,she stands taller when being touched.
Does it matter? In a hunting dog no,but I can say,it was simons style that made me go his way,and hope has similar style to what I saw in simon.

SetterNut · Post by **SetterNut** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:20 pm

I have found that as my setter pups have matured to about 2 years of age, the tail set tends to get higher.

I like a high tail, less than 12 O'Clockck on a setter and 12 on a EP.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:56 pm

I agree that the 10 to 11 tails are much more natural and attractive looking.

Same here.

Charlie

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:44 pm

There is a human trait that this always reminds me of. Some like it natural (not saggy but natural) and others want them pointing at the sky. But really you get to madonna cones and it has just gone TOO far.

To the OP, as far as stylin your dog, I'd say give a slow stroke down the back and see whether (1) the tail goes up and the dogs stiffens or (2) the dog glances at you then back at the bird. If the former, then maybe your dog could handle SOME SMALL amounts of styling. If the later then never do it again. I still need to be reminded to take my own advice and let style be what the dog gives. When it comes down to it, it's all show and doesn't much matter for finding the birds.

bossman · Post by **bossman** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:46 pm

Well, since Delmar has been quoted recently on another thread, and for discussion purposes...Delmar says "When you breed dog's....you make sure you get a high tail. That way you get an inch to an inch and a half more muscle...that muscle from the hip bone back down there to the thigh. That gives the dog more reaching and pushing power. He's not choppy" (page 8, Best Way to Train Your Gun Dog) Now I'm just saying thats what Delmar is saying. I dont think he would be only speaking about Pointers. But am really interested in hearing other opinions.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:59 pm

Yeah but that's tail "set" not "carraige"

no changing tail set. Comes on the dog and stays the same no matter what you do...

to continue my metaphor... Where the boobs attach and where they point are two different things. No amount of pointing up is going to help if they attach 2 " above the belly button. See if the mods knock me off for that.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:01 pm

bossman wrote:Well, since Delmar has been quoted recently on another thread, and for discussion purposes...Delmar says "When you breed dog's....you make sure you get a high tail. That way you get an inch to an inch and a half more muscle...that muscle from the hip bone back down there to the thigh. That gives the dog more reaching and pushing power. He's not choppy" (page 8, Best Way to Train Your Gun Dog) Now I'm just saying thats what Delmar is saying. I dont think he would be only speaking about Pointers. But am really interested in hearing other opinions.

You are confusing tail carriage with a high tail set. Carriage has little to do with anything other than balance and every animal that is fast and maneuverable carries their tail low and swings it out sideways when making quick turns.

Ezzy

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:05 pm

mountaindogs wrote:Yeah but that's tail "set" not "carraige"
no changing tail set. Comes on the dog and stays the same no matter what you do...

to continue my metaphor... Where the boobs attach and where they point are two different things. No amount of pointing up is going to help if they attach 2 " above the belly button. See if the mods knock me off for that.

Good example. By the way, how is Comet doing?

Ezzy

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:28 pm

Great! spoiled and doted on every day. I am expecting some photos soon and I will send them on.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:14 am

I prefer an almost level with the dogs spine tail position. I have yet to meet anyone who likes the 12 o'clock tail on this side of the pond. To our eyes it looks un-natural and spoils the symmetry of the dogs point.

Bill T.

copper · Post by **copper** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:21 pm

Thank you all for the response, I will let it fall/rise where it is. Not that important to me anyway. I will try to post pics but not that easy i'm finding..My dog is from Wyss Kennels in New Lisbon WI. Great family pet with awsome demenor (spellchk) and nose to hunt. Drive is getting much better, allready pointing pigeons/pheasants. Hunting grouse next year.
[/img]

PntrRookie wrote:
copper wrote:...Or is this only for show and trials.
Show DURING a trial Has absolutely NO affect on how the dog hunts. If you never trial, show, or care...don't worry about it.

At 5 months old the muscle memory is beginning and not all there yet. With development, growth and intensity, if the genetics are there, you should not have to do anything. But slight stroking does not hurt. Like posted before, when training be cautious how much "hands on pressure" you use.

I see you are from Appleton, where did you get your setter? Setters are beautiful, let's see some picts. Here is my youngster...

2012-12-01guyD.jpg

[/img]

PntrRookie wrote:
copper wrote:...Or is this only for show and trials.
Show DURING a trial Has absolutely NO affect on how the dog hunts. If you never trial, show, or care...don't worry about it.

At 5 months old the muscle memory is beginning and not all there yet. With development, growth and intensity, if the genetics are there, you should not have to do anything. But slight stroking does not hurt. Like posted before, when training be cautious how much "hands on pressure" you use.

I see you are from Appleton, where did you get your setter? Setters are beautiful, let's see some picts. Here is my youngster...

2012-12-01guyD.jpg

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:52 pm

I do a lot of laying on of the hands on my dogs, including styling them up. i do it for the reason that I WANT the dog to be totally comfortable with me handling them. I want them to ENJOY being stroked and handled in just the same way as they would be if they were being petted. Is it pressure? Sure. But it is kind pressure...positive pressure.

When I reach out my hand, i want the dog to stretch its neck to get close to it because my hand means goo things to the dog... not shrink from it or turn away from it because the hand means punishment.

If one wished to "improve" the tail carriage on a dog, styling it up and stroking it up when on "WHOA" in the yard can have some effect. However, I believe that conditioning and care of the anal glands can have much more effect. If the dog's back end is built up and strengthened, by things such as roading slowily againest resistance, it will tend to carry its tail higher.

As a field trailer I do want to see a 12 o'clock tail on point, becasue that is what wins... but I have to say that I personally think that the absolutely most attractive and symmetrical pointing posture would be a tail at 10: 30 and the neck of the dog at the same angle with the head straight on and nose parallel to the ground.

As a bird dog man, I yearn to come up on a dog that is twisted completely around and just about pointing with its nose sticking out from under its butt, having left skid marks in the dirt. That means to me that the dog was going flat out...full tilt when it caught scent and locked up in mid stride while simultaneously trying to turn around. That might just be the ugliest point you will ever see, but to me it is a thing of absolute beauty, because... THAT, my friends ... is my kind of bird dog.

Oh and I also turn my dogs over and lay them down as puppies and get them used to being handled in that way also. I can clip a dog's nails, scale a dog's teeth, pull a tick, clean up a wound, put on boots, do whaterver.... They might not like it all that much, but, they don't put up a fuss and I don't get bit. Several years ago, one of my guys cam in from an All Age field trial brace with an open wound on his chest and front leg. Superficial wound, mostly just the skin, but it was big and ugly. Probably got hung up in some barbed wire. When I got him back to my truck, I laid him down, told him to WHOA and irrigated the wound with saline solution and Bactine. Then I carried him up to the horse trailer of a vet who was at the same trial. The vet put about fifteen stainless steel wire stitches in his chest and leg with no anesthesia, while I cradled his head in my hand and told him to WHOA.. He never moved until I allowed him to get up. No big deal because he trusted me.

RayG

shags · Post by **shags** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:42 pm

Ray, sounds like you need to add a skin stapler to the first aid kit. Easy to use, no numbing required - pops 'em in real fast.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:45 pm

As a bird dog man, I yearn to come up on a dog that is twisted completely around and just about pointing with its nose sticking out from under its butt, having left skid marks in the dirt. That means to me that the dog was going flat out...full tilt when it caught scent and locked up in mid stride while simultaneously trying to turn around. That might just be the ugliest point you will ever see, but to me it is a thing of absolute beauty, because... THAT, my friends ... is my kind of bird dog.

That's the ultimate in beauty and intensity in my book. Classic points are nice but-------------------

Ezzy

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:47 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
As a bird dog man, I yearn to come up on a dog that is twisted completely around and just about pointing with its nose sticking out from under its butt, having left skid marks in the dirt. That means to me that the dog was going flat out...full tilt when it caught scent and locked up in mid stride while simultaneously trying to turn around. That might just be the ugliest point you will ever see, but to me it is a thing of absolute beauty, because... THAT, my friends ... is my kind of bird dog.
That's the ultimate in beauty and intensity in my book. Classic points are nice but-------------------

Ezzy

x2!!

Charlie

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:31 pm

shags wrote:Ray, sounds like you need to add a skin stapler to the first aid kit. Easy to use, no numbing required - pops 'em in real fast.

I have one in the dog box...now.

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:07 pm

I style my guys up i start at 8wks old. When they lock up on scent at what ever position they are in they dont move, they might be bent around low head, high head. The styling has more to do when they back becouse its sight and from a distance. Thats were the work from styling pays off a high head, high tail intense back is a thing of beauty i dont care who are. You wont forget it when you see it.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:20 am

I have never done that or seen it done. How is it done with a very young puppy ?

Bill T.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:03 am

There have been quite a number of times when out hunting that we have found dogs on point simply because of the high tail sticking out above the cover. (I would like to say that my Brittany was lost in the cover ahead pointing the birds and the Setter was backing, but that was not always the case.)
The high tail does have an advantage in the field that is more than just "show".

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:43 am

I like a high tail but not the straight as a stick straight up tail. For me the tail should come out about 10 o'clock and curve up gracefully to 12 o'clock. Seem's to me that the only thing some men seem to like that looks like a fence post it a straight up tail! I don't think you can style a dog to there and keep it there. Has to be mussels in the tail that determine the set of the tail. Squirt was really badly sycicled as a pup. as an adult it's totally different, no sycicle but a grace full curve, just doesn't point up to 12 to often.

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:44 pm

Tremoor

You need a check cord, a bird in a trap an a gentle hand, when the pup points you calm him by stroking his back an stroke up on the tail styling it higher slowly an gently. The check cord you give a tug if he wants to take out the bird. Its all about timing you need to be in tune to his actions keep it short and increase time with age. as they progress you start popping the trap doing the same. There is no chasing with my pups. I thought about doing a video clip an posting it but never got around to it.
Good luck

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:47 pm

I do the same when we start backing. but by thst time it comes natural usally i really get them up high it helps them understand what i exspect.

Sierra Wirehair · Post by **Sierra Wirehair** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:36 am

I've been watching this thread a bit and am in the process of training a 6 mo old GWP. He carries his field cut tail very high most of the time. My question is that if he were to carry it low on point, will stroking it up eventually get him to do this on his own? Has anybody had success changing tail position by striking it when the dig is on point? Thanks in advance.

Mic

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:09 am

Hattrick ....thanks for the info on how to style a pups tail.

Bill T.

Sierra Wirehair · Post by **Sierra Wirehair** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:21 am

After spending some time training with a friend that is a judge and accomplished trainer, I was able to see that a young pup does need that confidence in the filed to carry their tails hig. Max's tail was at about 9 oclock on scent btuta s soon as the pigeon moved his tail popped up to 11-12:00 position. It was very exciting!

Mic

royta · Post by **royta** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:20 pm

RayGubernat wrote:I do a lot of laying on of the hands on my dogs, including styling them up. i do it for the reason that I WANT the dog to be totally comfortable with me handling them. I want them to ENJOY being stroked and handled in just the same way as they would be if they were being petted. Is it pressure? Sure. But it is kind pressure...positive pressure.

When I reach out my hand, i want the dog to stretch its neck to get close to it because my hand means goo things to the dog... not shrink from it or turn away from it because the hand means punishment.

If one wished to "improve" the tail carriage on a dog, styling it up and stroking it up when on "WHOA" in the yard can have some effect. However, I believe that conditioning and care of the anal glands can have much more effect. If the dog's back end is built up and strengthened, by things such as roading slowily againest resistance, it will tend to carry its tail higher.

As a field trailer I do want to see a 12 o'clock tail on point, becasue that is what wins... but I have to say that I personally think that the absolutely most attractive and symmetrical pointing posture would be a tail at 10: 30 and the neck of the dog at the same angle with the head straight on and nose parallel to the ground.

As a bird dog man, I yearn to come up on a dog that is twisted completely around and just about pointing with its nose sticking out from under its butt, having left skid marks in the dirt. That means to me that the dog was going flat out...full tilt when it caught scent and locked up in mid stride while simultaneously trying to turn around. That might just be the ugliest point you will ever see, but to me it is a thing of absolute beauty, because... THAT, my friends ... is my kind of bird dog.

Oh and I also turn my dogs over and lay them down as puppies and get them used to being handled in that way also. I can clip a dog's nails, scale a dog's teeth, pull a tick, clean up a wound, put on boots, do whaterver.... They might not like it all that much, but, they don't put up a fuss and I don't get bit. Several years ago, one of my guys cam in from an All Age field trial brace with an open wound on his chest and front leg. Superficial wound, mostly just the skin, but it was big and ugly. Probably got hung up in some barbed wire. When I got him back to my truck, I laid him down, told him to WHOA and irrigated the wound with saline solution and Bactine. Then I carried him up to the horse trailer of a vet who was at the same trial. The vet put about fifteen stainless steel wire stitches in his chest and leg with no anesthesia, while I cradled his head in my hand and told him to WHOA.. He never moved until I allowed him to get up. No big deal because he trusted me.

RayG

I love this post.

I'm leaving in about an hour to meet the parents of my first bird dog. Your description of the twisted up point is making me anxious for 2013 upland season, or maybe 2014.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:04 pm

With all the comments from the bobtail folks, what would ya'lls dogs tails look like if they hadn't been docked???

Can't judge a tail by the first 15-20 percent.....

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:22 pm

birddog1968 wrote:With all the comments from the bobtail folks, what would ya'lls dogs tails look like if they hadn't been docked???

Can't judge a tail by the first 15-20 percent.....

I likem to have a little crook...

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:12 pm

I'm kinda partial to this guy..... No tail stroking needed to get the intensity. By 6 months it should be almost popping off.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:16 pm

ultracarry wrote:I'm kinda partial to this guy..... No tail stroking needed to get the intensity. By 6 months it should be almost popping off.

Is that yours?

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:29 pm

Owned by dezasterous gun dogs..... Check your pm.

pointer · Post by **pointer** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:38 pm

Here is a pup that is 10 1/2 weeks old on quail. They have it or they don't. What mom and dad puts in them is about as good as it gets.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:40 pm

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:43 pm

birddog1968 wrote:With all the comments from the bobtail folks, what would ya'lls dogs tails look like if they hadn't been docked???

Can't judge a tail by the first 15-20 percent.....

I think if she had a tail it would be straight up.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1356406994.499954.jpg

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:12 pm

I think you all are worrying about the wrong end of the dog.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:49 pm

I don't. There isn't a whole lot you can do as to whether you have a bird dog or not. The rest you can mess with. To what degree I don't know.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:57 pm

ezzy333 wrote:I think you all are worrying about the wrong end of the dog.

It's a package deal, if it doesn't have it all, sell it, give it away, and get a new one. But the tail matters when I look at it.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:11 pm

I have come to those terms if I want to win. Just don't know if I will ever have it in me to cut a dog loose once we have buddied up, or get competitive enough to cut a dog before I buddy up lol.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:44 pm

There are dogs that win with their tail dragging that look ugly... It's about what you like and are wanting to live with for 12-17 years. I couldn't see myself wasting time on something I won't be 100% happy with when they are pointing a bird or lying on my bed or couch.