use of wild birds?

[dhondtm]

Is it highly recommended that you DON'T use wild birds? I wasn't sure I was going to hunt with my Weim until she showed so much interest in the birds as she grew up I thought I better train her and get her in the field.

She is already 2 yrs old before we planted her first quail for her. I am recapping for those who don't know me yet. But, we did go out once with her with a group who helped introduce the scent to her. She broke and caught the first bird in her mouth but she did bring it back when I asked. During this whole time the guy helping me out was shooting a starter pistol while she played with the bird. So I think she had a great introduction.

This worked out real well for her but I can't always go out with this group or make use of bought quail. The interesting thing is now that she has had a taste for quail she seems to already be ignoring most of the other average birds.

Anyhow, to get her out more I have been taking her up into the mountain behind my house. It is only 1 block away so very easy access. The quail are literrally all over the place right in my back yard. I have been taking her out there and letting her hunt. Working on WHOA and until she points at them I start to show interest in them too. I try to keep her in a point as I approach then I simply clap my hands as loud as I can to scare off the quail. Then I release her and tell her good girl.

However, I thought I read that this is not recommended because for one they are never going to get the quail by doing this so there is no retrieve involved and really there is no reward. But I can't be shooting off my shotgun in my neighborhood either I think the quail know that, that is why there is so many.

[Greg Jennings]

You are so, so lucky to have wild birds available to you!

Here are some questions that might help things along:

Is she free-running or is she on a check cord?

Is she pointing on her own or are you Whoa-ing her into the point?

If you are whoa-ing her, is she pointing or just standing?

Is she staunch after the birds flush till you release her? Has she gone through a phase where she pointed birds and chased them? How long/how many birds? What did you do to curtail her chasing them? What signaled you to start steadying her?

What are your goals with the dog? Do you want to hunt her or are you going to compete her in, for example, hunt tests?

[raven]

I was told the more birds you can train them with the better I run my Britt in the woods starting in June , I run him 2-3 times a week in the woods and still do pegions the other days. Just check with you state Game Dept. befor you run wild birds some states like Vermont don't let you chase birds for training untill a certain date that is why I don't run him till June

[snips]

I have to agree, nothing like wild birds for dogs. I would find it hard to do controlled training on them tho.

[Greg Jennings]

I think free-running on wild birds is great for a dog that hasn't started establishing a solid point yet. The dogs learn that they can't catch the bird, where to find birds, etc.

After the dog is rock-solid staunch to the level that you want to take the dog, I think running on wild birds is great. You don't have to kill everything that the dog holds staunch on to reward the dog. Praise the dog. Pet them after you release them (and they don't do a delayed chase). That's enough after they have learned their job.

In the middle, though, when you're trying to staunch the dog, I don't think free-running on anything is a good idea. It's check cord time for doggie. In short, if you're telling the dog to be steady till flush, shot, drop, release or whatever, and the dog can break early, it's going to confuse the dog and frustrate the trainer.

That's my take from the context of a game where the requirements for the dog to be steady are pretty hard on the dog.

[dhondtm]

Thanks, for all the replies....

Is she free-running or is she on a check cord?

She is free-running the field and I tell her "Go find the birds". She knows the word "bird" and her ears always perc up when I say it so it helps get her excited about it.

Is she pointing on her own or are you Whoa-ing her into the point?

At this point I would have to say 95% of the time I am Whoa-ing her into the point. She is just learning Whoa, but knows Stay so I have mixed the commands a few times to introduce her. At this point though I am just using Whoa now, but I do have to repeat it a few times. If she does creep in and it takes three or four Whoa's I pick her up and put her back where I said the first Whoa. By now the birds have fled and she just looks at me wagging her tail.

If you are whoa-ing her, is she pointing or just standing?

Probably about 50-50% depends on how much she creeps and how fast the birds flee.

Is she staunch after the birds flush till you release her?

Sorry, What do you mean by staunch?

Has she gone through a phase where she pointed birds and chased them? How long/how many birds?

Yes, she has been chasing them for some time now. For a year now she has shown she has interest in birds and thats when I decided I should train her and take her hunting.

What did you do to curtail her chasing them? What signaled you to start steadying her?

Well, as soon as it looks like she has scented or spotted them she lowers her head and her tail goes up and she starts to point, but she creeps in fast on them and thats when I started Whoa-ing her.

What are your goals with the dog? Do you want to hunt her or are you going to compete her in, for example, hunt tests?

I want to hunt her and I may attempt to work her up to Master Hunter somedy, depends how well she does. If she just gets to Senior hunter that is fine too. I do not plan to compete her in any competitions or show her.

More background
My wife and I decided to get another dog to keep our Weim busy. She has so much energy and although we walk her every day and take her on long 4 or 5 mile hikes in the mountains every weekend and several visits to the dog parks to play. She still has a lot of energy left over. We thought a very similar breed would be a Vizsla, also Cassi is on the smaller side for her breed (55lbs at 2 yrs) She is very fit, mostly because we don't ever feed her table scraps. The Vizsla tends to be a little smaller then the Weims so we thought they would be close in size. Once, we decided on the Vizsla I thought I should start training Cassi to bird hunt if we're going to have two bird dogs. I am more of the occasional hunter, I don't get to get out enough to hunt, so originally I was worried to introduce her to something we wouldn't get to do much. But, I'll just have to get my butt out there with her. Besides hunting with the dogs makes the hunt that much more enjoyable. ok this post is getting too long.

[Greg Jennings]

I use "staunch" to mean "steady" or "holds point" or "does not break and do what they want to do".
-----
If your dog has shown signs of pointing on her own w/o you stopping her, then you are ready to start steadying her.

Put her on a check cord every time she's going to be around game birds. She needs some repetitions of doing it the way you want her to do it and the only way to do that is to control the dog with the check cord.

[dhondtm]

Well I look forward to getting my videos I ordered from PerfectKennel per Grants suggestion and I picked up a check cord as well. Thx for all the tips.

[Greg Jennings]

No problem. I'm just summarizing what others have told me...usually after I've made a mistake that costs me a month of re-training.

I also highly recommend reading the posts on the West/Gibbons method that I posted on the same thread as Grant's suggestion.

They're free and they'll give you context for a lot of what you read and hear on the forums.