Training Stress.

[jcbuttry8]

So, I was at the walking trial this weekend and watch a friend of mine's shorthair run without any desire. She just seemed to follow the other dog around and back the other dog. Almost as if she didn't find the bird she didn't have to worry. She used to be one of the prettiest pointing dogs I have ever seen when she was younger. She was sent to a trainer and now when she points she looks nervous and keeps her tail down.

After seeing this and now that I have no dog to play with, I have offered to play with her and run her next spring. My thoughts are that birds are no longer fun for her. I don't know what exactly happened but it sure wasn't something she liked. So, I will be bringing her home in two days to hang with us and get used to us. My plans are to take her pheasant hunting with my son and just get some birds shot over her with no pressure. After a few trips intro another dog and let her work with him but keep pulling her off in another direction. Keep her from shadowing, but most of all make it fun and get back to being excited about birds.

She does it all. she is steady to the shot, backs beautifully, retrieves to hand everytime, but when she smells a bird you can just see the nerves take over.

Just thought I would mention it on here and see if there were some other Ideas that I should be trying. For now I think hunting with my son and making it fun is a good start.

joe

[Luminary Setters]

I have seen a number if dogs made sour from overtraining.

[birddog1968]

Alot of people and trainers think they need to "make" the dog, dog needs to fit their program, instead of allowing a dog to make themselves and fitting the program to the dog.

Gotta be careful who you entrust your animal too.......

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

TOO MUCH pressure TOO soon & no fun.This is how you end up with what some call a well trained dog.I don't like Robots that can't make a move with out looking to it's handler.The dog needs to have some fun
& rebuild it's confidence & boldness & desire.I have preached this for yrs only to be told by others I am wrong & maybe I am but they can do it their way & I'll do it my way.
I would pretty much start over which shouldn't have happened because of some control freak!!

[Wildweeds]

I'd take the dog hunting and not worry about perfection,get that sucker into a bunch of birds and don't worry about perfect dog work every time.I'd say the dog was a sour trial dog,have seen quite a few that were sulky do to the pressure applied to be perfect,my guess is that the dog your talking about was never allowed to be a puppy and grew up in a regimented program that it was forced to comply with.Whoa training at 6 months,steady to wing at 9,broke at 15months and the list goes on.The dog never got to have fun.Fun is what is going to be required to turn it around.I'd much rather have one that could at times be an expolisve loose cannon that was excited and stylish but had uh ohs 10% of the time.Than a robot that was perfect but looked like a sack of crap 90% of the time it ran.

[Luminary Setters]

I was interrupted and unintentionally sent my response before I had a chance to finish.

I know of a very nice continental dog with an owner that has spent a fortune with trainers, handlers and travel expenses in pursuit of a field championship. During its derby year the the dog had an excellent ground race, stylish points, proved itself to be a good bird finder, and was ranked in the top ten of derbies by its breed club.

An anxious owner, influenced by a handler in need of revenue moved the dog to finished stakes before it was ready. Spinning the roulette wheel, sometimes they got the dog around the course and sometimes they didn't, but to make a long story short, the dog had to repeatedly be "repaired" only to be broken down again. Each repair took a little more style from the dog, and even novice bird dog guys would comment that the dog didn't look like it was having any fun. Unless at a trial, the dog doesn't get out without being corrected for some infraction, and as a result, the poor dog is looking for the sky to fall.

Dogs like this need a break and have some fun. Bring back the confidence and with a little luck, the style will come back. Unfortunately, the dog I am talking about has little chance. While on an evaluation walk some suggestions were made, but the owner rejected them because of conflicts with the trial season. I complimented the dog on an nice piece of bird work, and the owner responded- "yeah..., but I was really hoping for a correction".

[jcbuttry8]

Thanks for the replies. It looks as though my thought process was right on. So, I plan on taking pics as she progresses. I will share them as I get them. We start liking birds again on Friday morning. No pressure and tons of praise and fun. heck or high water I am going to get her liking birds again.

Joe

[ultracarry]

I was interrupted and unintentionally sent my response before I had a chance to finish.

I know of a very nice continental dog with an owner that has spent a fortune with trainers, handlers and travel expenses in pursuit of a field championship. During its derby year the the dog had an excellent ground race, stylish points, proved itself to be a good bird finder, and was ranked in the top ten of derbies by its breed club.

An anxious owner, influenced by a handler in need of revenue moved the dog to finished stakes before it was ready. Spinning the roulette wheel, sometimes they got the dog around the course and sometimes they didn't, but to make a long story short, the dog had to repeatedly be "repaired" only to be broken down again. Each repair took a little more style from the dog, and even novice bird dog guys would comment that the dog didn't look like it was having any fun. Unless at a trial, the dog doesn't get out without being corrected for some infraction, and as a result, the poor dog is looking for the sky to fall.

Dogs like this need a break and have some fun. Bring back the confidence and with a little luck, the style will come back. Unfortunately, the dog I am talking about has little chance. While on an evaluation walk some suggestions were made, but the owner rejected them because of conflicts with the trial season. I complimented the dog on an nice piece of bird work, and the owner responded- "yeah..., but I was really hoping for a correction".

Are you sure the top 10 Derby standing wasn't the issue that caused the dog to have future problems in not being dead broke? Chase Chase and Chase and occasionally catch a bird may be a lot of the problem.

[Luminary Setters]

Not in this case. It wasn't a broke derby. This was strictly a case of running a fog in a broke stake before the dog was finished. The pro handler wanted the revenue and the owner wanted a title.

The dog was not finished, it was green broke. The dog should have been pulled for the amount of time needed to make it reliable. Instead attempts were made to patch the dog to get it through the next trial. It went to several different trainers to hammer it back into shape and each time a little more was taken out of her. During the process the dog became collar wise.

At least the dog had fun when it blows the birds out at trials. It was sad to watch this happen, and see the owner continue to make the same mistakes over and over again.

[fuzznut]

Agree totally on a dog moved along faster then it was ready for.

It's so hard to get the average guy to understand that the dogs are dogs, not machines. Some dogs are ready, willing and able at 18 mos old, others not ready till 2.5 yrs old. Pushing too hard too soon... sour dog!

Now if you are not looking for a competition dog, this might not be an issue..... but if you are- the dog is ready when the dog is ready.

Sour dog remedy? All you can do is try your best to make it interesting and fun again. No bird field drills... maybe no birds at all for awhile? And then, one here, one there... shoot them for the dog. Let him fetch them up with no reprimands? Lots of excitement... let his head get back into the game.
Dual

[campgsp]

sounds like she was burnt with an e collar on birds by the "trainer".
now she has no interest or is scared of birds. get her out and have fun. put her on lots of birds, let her know they are not going to hurt her.
the more positive you can make her experience the better.

[Sharon]

So, I was at the walking trial this weekend and watch a friend of mine's shorthair run without any desire. She just seemed to follow the other dog around and back the other dog. Almost as if she didn't find the bird she didn't have to worry. She used to be one of the prettiest pointing dogs I have ever seen when she was younger. She was sent to a trainer and now when she points she looks nervous and keeps her tail down.

After seeing this and now that I have no dog to play with, I have offered to play with her and run her next spring. My thoughts are that birds are no longer fun for her. I don't know what exactly happened but it sure wasn't something she liked. So, I will be bringing her home in two days to hang with us and get used to us. My plans are to take her pheasant hunting with my son and just get some birds shot over her with no pressure. After a few trips intro another dog and let her work with him but keep pulling her off in another direction. Keep her from shadowing, but most of all make it fun and get back to being excited about birds.

She does it all. she is steady to the shot, backs beautifully, retrieves to hand everytime, but when she smells a bird you can just see the nerves take over.

Just thought I would mention it on here and see if there were some other Ideas that I should be trying. For now I think hunting with my son and making it fun is a good start.

joe

I'm hesitant to give an opinion as you are very knowledgeable- i enjoy your posts. May have been frightened by birds in a launcher launching in her face. Sounds like she is in good hands now. Bizarre that she will carry a bird , point a bird , but are you saying she blinks birds? I would eliminate the variable of another dog until this problem is fixed.

[jcbuttry8]

No, Sharon, She won't blink them, she just gets nervous when she is the one that finds the bird. You can just see the fear as if something bad is about to happen. I am thinking along the lines as the others that she may have had electric on during birds and now has a bad association with them.

So, I will pick her up tomorrow and we will hunt Friday and Saturday. Then Thursday and Friday next week. She really is just a great little dog. I really hope she comes around. In her early derby trials she won or placed in every trial and now just seems lost. So we will see if some fun time will work.

Joe

[campgsp]

I hope it all works out. If you hunt with a collar try not using it on her when you go. Leave it at home. I truly believe she was fried on birds. No other real reason for a dog being afraid of a bird.

[birddog1968]

I hope it all works out. If you hunt with a collar try not using it on her when you go. Leave it at home. I truly believe she was fried on birds. No other real reason for a dog being afraid of a bird.

There are alot of reasons a dog could be shy of birds, not all have to do with a collar. Actually its very easy to make a dog shy from birds......

[campgsp]

I hope it all works out. If you hunt with a collar try not using it on her when you go. Leave it at home. I truly believe she was fried on birds. No other real reason for a dog being afraid of a bird.

There are alot of reasons a dog could be shy of birds, not all have to do with a collar. Actually its very easy to make a dog shy from birds......

That's true for puppies not so much for older dogs. Narrow down all the possibilities and I think you will agree with neglect of ecollar. Remember this is an older bolder dog with experience not a pup.
Jmo.

[birddog1968]

I hope it all works out. If you hunt with a collar try not using it on her when you go. Leave it at home. I truly believe she was fried on birds. No other real reason for a dog being afraid of a bird.

There are alot of reasons a dog could be shy of birds, not all have to do with a collar. Actually its very easy to make a dog shy from birds......

That's true for puppies not so much for older dogs. Narrow down all the possibilities and I think you will agree with neglect of ecollar. Remember this is an older bolder dog with experience not a pup.
Jmo.

JMO, is right....I know better......just sayin bud.

[mudhunter]

be careful your not trying to "fix" a problem thats not their. Some dogs when they come out of the breaking process are hesitant, stay close, and are afraid to make a mistake. Just work the dog in situations that it will be successful and I wouldn't over work birds. Let the dog come back slowly and keep her broke, letting her get away with stuff now will only create the need for more pressure later.

I have no idea about this dog so it may be more than this, I just wouldn't jump to the conclusion that the dog needs major work.

[Chukar12]

That's true for puppies not so much for older dogs. Narrow down all the possibilities and I think you will agree with neglect of ecollar. Remember this is an older bolder dog with experience not a pup.
Jmo.

JMO,
Where does it say how old the dog is? For my "memory" to kick in and absorb internet wisdom I need to be apprised of my missed data. As 1968 pointed out there are countless reasons that a dog may have lost intensity on birds in the breaking process and an e-collar can play a role. However, with the limited information we do have about the dog, I would surmise that it was soft on birds when it wasn't even wearing a collar as it was running in an akc trial, and dogs were ruined on birds long before any village idiot could walk in Cabela's and outfit themselves with an e-collar.

At this moment only the dog knows why it is soft and more importantly only the dog has the key to a change in behavior. Whatever brings back trust and confidence, will fade if the dog isn't slowly desensitized to its issues. I wouldn't trust any trainer that proposed to have a solution prior to watching the dog react to a number of different situations. I believe the original poster has a good starting thought and I would bet tall dollars that using an e-collar for correction does not play into his plans.

The fact that he mentions twice the issue of "trailing" another dog is interesting, since we all get to guess: that speaks to submission in some form. Is it just to other dogs? Has something happened around a dog that makes he or she wary of strange or dominant dogs and prey? Maybe an e-collar didn't do it...maybe a dominant dog did. Perhaps just confidence and independence will change the dogs behavior around prey. I suspect we will know more if the original poster shares progress and behavior as he experiments.

[jcbuttry8]

I cannot give alot of information as to what happened while at the trainer. I can tell you that I trialed against this dog with Kona. She always placed at every trial had a decent run and was a very bold puppy/ Derby. One of my most memorable moments was when she pointer a small covey and stuck it. The other pup took out the covey and she never even flicked her tail. There was alot of natural talent when she was young. She was coming along real nice without much trying.

My next time around the dog was after her training and tail between the legs and a pure look of fear in her eyes. We all know that some dogs take well to breaking and some do not. Not all dogs are the same and different tactics need to be taken. Like 68 said it may not be the shock collar it very well could have been something else but whatever it was it happened during the breaking process. So, I will spend some time playing with her and see if we can bring her around. I think starting with shooting some birds over her is a good start but I will not be letting her break on the birds. She still does everything expected to compete in a trial you can just tell she isn't happy about it.

I will let you know how she comes about and if unpressured hunting helps out. If not, we will try some other tactics.

Joe

[campgsp]

she just gets nervous when she is the one that finds the bird. You can just see the fear as if something bad is about to happen.
Joe

Almost as if she didn't find the bird she didn't have to worry. She was sent to a trainer and now when she points she looks nervous and keeps her tail down.
She does it all. she is steady to the shot, backs beautifully, retrieves to hand everytime, but when she smells a bird you can just see the nerves take over.
joe

chucker12

the quotes above are the reasoning around my opinoin. dominants from another dog doesnt make a dog afraid to point on its own. like i said think about all the possibilities and they all lead to e collar. for age he said the dog has already been to a trainer. and fully broke. what 3 month old dog is sent to trainer?

my opinion. to each his own. we will never know what really happend though and i hope this dog comes around ok.

[Chukar12]

dominants from another dog doesn't make a dog afraid to point on its own

Well this for instance is an opinion that is stated a lot like an erroneous fact. Let's just say for instance somewhere outside your experience a Setter derby gets rolled a time or two at a trial and then very early in the breaking process a big rough GSP pup steals point so aggressively that it knocks the Setter right off his feet, loud enough to yelp. Could this dog blink birds based on the negative association? This original poster will not be swayed by a matter of fact internet diagnosis, but others may. Did dogs blink birds before e-collars were invented? Tools do not cause or fix behaviors, however trainers do.

[campgsp]

This has nothing to do with blinking birds though. That is a completely different fault. This particular dog is pointing birds in fear. Holding point with body language saying it is afraid of what's coming or happening.

I think you are getting confused my man.

[Chukar12]

that must be it

[brad27]

The simplest answers are often the correct ones. This dog had too much pressure applied to it during the breaking process. The only reason it is not blinking birds is because it has a strong prey drive.
Joe, you said this dog is STWS and you aren't going to let it stray from that. You also said you are going to take it hunting with no pressure to preform. IMO you can't have it both ways. Take the dog hunting. If it breaks and chases let it. Birds need to be fun for this dog again. After the dog is pointing birds with confidence and style, start applying pressure (slowly) to get it broke again.

[AzDoggin]

Joe, Jim Marti described a similar dog in his book (a setter from his Burnt Creek lines). He had sent the dog off to a trainer who pushed the dog too hard. Jim took the dog back - and "took it fishing" for several months. Said he totally focused on making life fun for the dog again, and building trust. When he started training again, he moved slowly and the dog came right along. As I recall, that dog went on to become a multi-time winner. Moral of the story: all MAY not be lost if you have the time and willingness to back off and essentially start over.

[jcbuttry8]

I am hoping that once I get her out by herself in a stress free environment that I can get a better look at where she's at. If we need to start over then that is what we will do, but by the end of the hunt on Friday I want to have a happy relaxed dog, what ever has to happen to make that possible I will do. Other than at a trial or not even at a trial she is still worked on the same grounds. So, maybe changing up the scenery will also help ease her. She is STWS and she retrieves shot birds to hand. There just is no class about it. Someone mentioned earlier, Robotic.

I appreciate all the help and advice. I think once I have a chance to really look at her outside her normal setting I will have a better idea and will post it here. That's what I like about this site, many different opinions. Definitely allows one to step back and find the best avenue. It really is all about the dog here.

Brad,
I guess the proper way to say it is I would prefer not to loose more than I have to with her training, but in the end as I said above, she will dictate how far we need to go to get her back. If we start over, we start over.


Joe

[birddog1968]

I dont understand this starting over, whats done is done....there is no starting over. Someone please explain how you start over with a dog you don't really know what happened.......especially a dog this far along....

I'd suggest lots of birds, no collar , hardly any voice and no hands on the dog and see what happens.....Nobody here can really say without seeing the dog, or having the real pertinent info which
doesn't seem to be known.

[birddogger]

It sounds to me that Joe has the right mind set and patience to hopefully fix whatever it is that went wrong with this dog. I think running the dog alone is the first step and he said that is what he is going to do. IMO, this thread was more for discussion than actual advise. It never hurts to discuss and get different thoughts.

[myerstenn]

I dont understand this starting over, whats done is done....there is no starting over. Someone please explain how you start over with a dog you don't really know what happened.......especially a dog this far along....

I'd suggest lots of birds, no collar , hardly any voice and no hands on the dog and see what happens.....Nobody here can really say without seeing the dog, or having the real pertinent info which
doesn't seem to be known.

I would suggest you let it hunt and enjoy life for awhile,dont worry about steady to wing and shot, keep the collar on the dog, leave your transmitter at home and kill plenty of birds over the dog as frequent as possible. If the collar is part of the problem it will probally not be an issue if she get cranked up about the birds. The flip site is she may never regain style...

[DGFavor]

I would suggest you let it hunt and enjoy life for awhile,dont worry about steady to wing and shot, keep the collar on the dog, leave your transmitter at home and kill plenty of birds over the dog as frequent as possible.

Great advice! You might have missed this though Ned - the dog has a deadline to meet! :

If we need to start over then that is what we will do, but by the end of the hunt on Friday I want to have a happy relaxed dog

Good luck, don't put a timeline on her, keep it short and fun, end on a good note. Crawl, walk, run.

[myerstenn]

The time line dosent mean much if she still looks like DO Do

[ezzy333]

It would be my guess you are talking a couple of months at least to solve the problem and not just a day or two. You can't put a timeline on a dog if you are serious about fixing the problem. She didn't get to where she is today in a day or two and she isn't going to get it out of her head in a day or two. Slow and steady and I am kind of the opinion there may be something to be gained by waiting a couple of weeks to put her back on birds but that you will have to see.

Ezzy

[jcbuttry8]

There is no timeline. I am just going to have fun with her. She will stay with me for a month just to gain more trust in me. She is currently curled up next to me asleep. I think the bonding started well. She doesn't really seem to like the boxer but they will hash that one out. She will go back home in a month but home is on the club grounds which I work my dogs on. So, when I am there two to three times a week she will also be there. So, it will make life easy. She is not far from where I hunt so, I will stop by and scoop her up when we head out hunting.

When and if she is ready, I will be the one that trials her. It could be the spring or fall. Her progress will determine that. There really is no need to push her back into the same situations if she is not ready. If I was to do that then there would be no need to even bother with all of this.

They took her and their other dog out today and let them run. She found two chuckar and pointed one with her tail down and the second with her tail up. After the first bird, they somewhat over praised her and got her all excited. The second point seemed to be much better and she delivered both to hand. She did however break on both birds at the shot. They let it go and just praised her. So, I think with my plan we should see some good results. We have all the time we need to play. Neither the dog nor I are going anywhere.

Joe

[AzDoggin]

Awesome, Joe. Sounds like you are the man for this job. Keep us posted?

[jcbuttry8]

Alright, so this is the first chance I have had all weekend to update the hunting trip on Friday.

She had six finds and two UP's. unfortunately, the six finds were all carcasses left over from the Hawks. There are way to many here. Had a few close that I could have laid out but can't afford the fine or the trouble that comes with it. She stuck all her points well. Even the two UP's were pretty solid and didn't move a muscle. We hunted for 5 hours and never got a bird up. Her first two finds she had her tail down but all the rest were at 11:00 and head high. So, I think that with time she will be fine. She definitely doesn't run a horseback race as of now but would make a great hunt test dog or a walking trial dog. If she comes along as she is now, I may have to let my daughter work up to running her. I think they would be a good match.

I do have to apologize to all hunters in NJ.

So the first field we were in she pointed two of the carcasses. She had her tail down, but held them tight. After the second bird, I decided to get her roused up so, I started praising the heck out of her and jumping up and down and reaching down and patting her. It helped. She was wagging her whole body and her tail was going nuts. So, we headed out of the field and back to the car. I looked back towards the field and then realized that the grass in some spots was waste high. So, the four or five cars that passed by while I was getting her excited only saw this big guy dressed in orange with a breakover shotgun jumping up and down in the grass field and talking to the ground. There is no way they saw that little dog. So, I am sorry. I know we have enough problems here. Now, they think they give hunting licenses and guns to the crazy, but I swear I had a dog with me.

I stopped and spoke to one of the wardens, and they said Wed through Fri they will be putting out a lot of birds. So, hopefully my son and I will have better luck with shooting birds this weekend.

Joe