One for the AA set.

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Stoneface
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One for the AA set.

Post by Stoneface » Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:57 pm

I was talking to a guy who runs AA dogs the other day. He said he separates the training he does on run from the bird training about 95% of the time. Said if when he does bird work he usually does it in a real controlled environment, in about a two-to-three acre area. When he works on run he'll take the dog out and dry run him from the pickup, ATV or horse without any birds. Said once in awhile he'll plant one bird at the extreme end of a course to finish the run with a point. He also said he trains on run very frequently, but after he has a dog broke he'll not work him on a bird but once every so often, of maybe once before a trial to keep him up on his manners.

Is this how you AA trainers out there train or is this just him? I've not setup my training situations like this at all and was wondering if anyone out there does.
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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:04 am

Where does this "AA guy" train? What has he won?
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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:25 am

This one should be interesting!

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by Stoneface » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:59 am

I have no idea. I was talking to the guy I lease land from when the dude rolled up. Saw my dogs on the cab and we got to talking. Nice guy and seemed toknow what hw was talking about.
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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by kbshorthairs » Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:06 am

Stoneface wrote: Nice guy and seemed toknow what hw was talking about.
I agree.....this should be interesting.

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by bb560m » Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:08 am

Sounds like just the type of dog I want to go hunting with!

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by Chukar12 » Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:26 am

Common sense will tell you that running the extreme edges of the course requires a dog capable, willing and desiring to do so. Capability begins with genetics and transitions into health, strength and condition. Willingness and desire are genetics as well but heavily influenced and shaped by training. Once any dog is broke, I limit the bird work as well. In my opinion, training drills with birds promote stickiness and boredom in journeyman dogs and that translates to dependent ground application and ho hum style on birds.

How many of you in wild bird settings find yourself in 5,6 or more points in a 30 minute run in 10 acres like you night have in a typical training set-up? I venture not many. A dog regardless of natural range shows best when it is hunting objectives for birds. Training should create a balance that does just that. In training sessions from horseback or ATV with a "finished"AA dog I am likely to do the same as the gent described, if birds are planted they are on the edges in likely objectives but they require work to find them. I spend more time shaping ground application, staying forward and keeping any "checking in" to visual or verbal contact rather than out and out return to me. This admittedly is desirable for "show" in the field trial game, but it also is paramount in the wide open desert where most of my hunting is, I don't need or want a dog if its just going to point the birds I can walk up.

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by topher40 » Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:44 am

I train with a wonderfully succesful AA amatuer on a regular basis, funny how he buys plenty of birds from me and has more johny houses than dogs. (thats quite a few BTW) I have met tons of folks that "seemed" to know what they are talking about, although the proof is in the proverbial pudding. :roll:
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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by bb560m » Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:45 am

I would think most "bird dogs" would get bored running and running and never finding birds, what is the point? They're just running to run off at that point.

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by Chukar12 » Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:59 am

Johnny House birds are as close to wild as we are probably going to get and let us not forget the distinction between a young dog and a broke dog, I believe that to get continuous improvement the approach is different.

...and bb560m everybody has a right to an opinion. You can usually tell how learned that opinion is with just a bit of research I generally start with paying attention to how well a person delivers their message on a subject that they are professing to have knowledge in, then I like to see if they have any recorded expertise, and lastly its nice to observe their success, from this comes empirical knowledge or ...we can shoot from the hip.

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by birddog1968 » Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:39 pm

bb560m wrote:I would think most "bird dogs" would get bored running and running and never finding birds, what is the point? They're just running to run off at that point.

Not exactly.....well not really at all.....If a dog doesn't have the heart to hunt all day even if birds aren't found every 30 minutes thats not a dog I really want. Also, just because a dog
runs big and is out of site some of the time doesn't mean its run off. Some folks just can't fathom a dog with range that isn't being hacked.
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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by slistoe » Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:40 pm

bb560m wrote:I would think most "bird dogs" would get bored running and running and never finding birds, what is the point? They're just running to run off at that point.
A hunting dog hunts. Birds or no birds, the dog continues to hunt. If the dog won't hunt when there are no birds it would be rather pointless to have with you in the field.

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by DGFavor » Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:11 pm

Is this how you AA trainers out there train or is this just him?
Just him.

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by bb560m » Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:15 pm

slistoe wrote:
bb560m wrote:I would think most "bird dogs" would get bored running and running and never finding birds, what is the point? They're just running to run off at that point.
A hunting dog hunts. Birds or no birds, the dog continues to hunt. If the dog won't hunt when there are no birds it would be rather pointless to have with you in the field.
I don't know how many dogs are going to keep running out and hunting when they NEVER find birds, but ok. Maybe after a hundred times, maybe 200, eventually they'll get bored I would assume if they never find anything.

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by birddogger » Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:40 pm

bb560m wrote:
slistoe wrote:
bb560m wrote:I would think most "bird dogs" would get bored running and running and never finding birds, what is the point? They're just running to run off at that point.
A hunting dog hunts. Birds or no birds, the dog continues to hunt. If the dog won't hunt when there are no birds it would be rather pointless to have with you in the field.
I don't know how many dogs are going to keep running out and hunting when they NEVER find birds, but ok. Maybe after a hundred times, maybe 200, eventually they'll get bored I would assume if they never find anything.
Wrong. :) I run dogs all the time where there are no birds to be found just to keep them in condition and I honestly don't believe any driven dog ever gets bored with running and hunting and exploring. :)

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by Chukar12 » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:11 pm

Training and set-ups don't have an affect on all dogs but it sure does on some. I was in an OGD retrieving stake this weekend at the No Ca Brittany Club trial. They do a "call back" for the retrieve. For those of you unfamiliar they choose the dogs they wish to place and a couple of alternates and call them back to see them handle a bird and retrieve. So...in this case they went right back to the break-away line went out about 75 yards and tossed down a chukar in a likely clump. The dogs were brought to the line individually and walked out with gunners in tow until point was established, bird is flushed and dispatched, and the dog must retrieve on a release command only.

Welll... as I said, it was at the same break away as the trial. In this case however the handlers were on foot instead of a horse, there were gunners, no bracemate, and 25 people standing there watching. Every dog approached the situation differently than the trial...no break aways at the whistle, most kinda cat walked or pottered their way to the scent cone and then locked up...they know a set-up when the see it.

This is relevant because the same thing can and does occasionally happen in training. Some dogs will form a habit of looking for birds in a set up and frankly it just makes the dog look like home made horse pucky. Wild birds do not generally pose the same problem. When you see a dog looking poorly on wild birds either the dog or the trainer should not breed because somebody is a liability in the gene pool.

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by rinker » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:17 pm

I am not an AA guy, but I know some and have learned a lot from them. Based only upon my observations, this is not an example of a normal training routine.

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:38 pm

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:This one should be interesting!
Not yet, but I would still like to know who would be stupid enough to run a dog from a vehicle. We are talking AA dogs, who can pull a Memphis Raines across a couple of sections of real estate. Even a four wheeler is a handicap from a visibility standpoint. Enquiring minds want to know.
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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by Chukar12 » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:47 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:Not yet, but I would still like to know who would be stupid enough to run a dog from a vehicle. We are talking AA dogs, who can pull a Memphis Raines across a couple of sections of real estate. Even a four wheeler is a handicap from a visibility standpoint. Enquiring minds want to know.
That would be me...I do it all the time in mining roads in the desert. Atv's travel easier than horses, they unload quicker, saddles are softer, packing dogs back and forth easier and so on and so forth...
With a Garmin in hand the sight loss disadvantage is minimal.

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by Johng918 » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:07 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:This one should be interesting!
Not yet, but I would still like to know who would be stupid enough to run a dog from a vehicle. We are talking AA dogs, who can pull a Memphis Raines across a couple of sections of real estate. Even a four wheeler is a handicap from a visibility standpoint. Enquiring minds want to know.
I guess I know a lot of stupid people around here that run a dog from a vehicle Ive done it myself so I guess I'm with stupid.

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by slistoe » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:10 pm

For conditioning I ran my dogs from a vehicle all the time. It is pointless to walk, I don't have a horse or an ATV, so truck it is. They simply cannot get lost if you don't let them have time to stray. When the truck is going 20+ mph they are running to keep ahead, not hunting or exploring. Working up to 1/2 an hour at an average of 16 mph dragging 15 lbs of chain would get them in awesome shape for a 1/2 hour stake but was not enough to hold up for an hour on the prairie.

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:20 pm

Practically everyone I know including myself uses a vehicle. They are cheaper to feed than a horse.

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by SCT » Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:33 pm

All my pointers have hunted out of a truck once they're old enough. Hunting sage grouse in wide open Wyoming requires it, if, that is, you can stand your dog freeing up without being hacked on. A lot of people can't stand it though and have to "control" their dog. AA dogs are mostly trained to turn or bend by the handler, yeah, they need to have bird manners, but they really need to cover the country. I'm no trainer, nor can I say I've competed in an AA stake, but I can sure appreciate a real AA dog.

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:27 pm

The topic was not roading and nothing to do with hunting. It waa about working All Age field trial dogs.
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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by SCT » Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:13 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:The topic was not roading and nothing to do with hunting. It waa about working All Age field trial dogs.
True...I got carried away.

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:37 pm

SCT wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:The topic was not roading and nothing to do with hunting. It waa about working All Age field trial dogs.
True...I got carried away.
That's okay, you ain't too heavy. :)

If you want a dog to work for a horse, which is what AA dogs do, you'd best work them from horseback so they don't get confused and end up heiny deep in a brushpile, although, in his defense, mine is a Shooting Dog.
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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by DGFavor » Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:29 pm

All my pointers have hunted out of a truck once they're old enough. Hunting sage grouse in wide open Wyoming requires it
Requires it?? Really...hunting sage grouse in Wyoming requires a vehicle...??? "Hunting" out of a vehicle ain't hunting as far as I'm concerned.
I'm no trainer, nor can I say I've competed in an AA stake, but I can sure appreciate a real AA dog.
Can't help myself, and this seems a fair question even if this is the internet where we all can be experts...if you haven't done and don't do it, how do you know it??

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by slistoe » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:29 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
SCT wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:The topic was not roading and nothing to do with hunting. It waa about working All Age field trial dogs.
True...I got carried away.
That's okay, you ain't too heavy. :)

If you want a dog to work for a horse, which is what AA dogs do, you'd best work them from horseback so they don't get confused and end up heiny deep in a brushpile, although, in his defense, mine is a Shooting Dog.
So you don't think a dog is smart enough to learn to handle from a horse and an ATV?

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by SCT » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:33 pm

It depends where you hunt in Wyoming. On the opener I hunted off foot and harvested my limit. But some places I hunt in WY requires a huge running dog and if you want to walk that many miles, good for you, but for me, I let my dogs do what they're bred to do and work out the details when they find birds.

I admitted I haven't competed, but that sure doesn't mean I don't understand the kind of performance it would take to compete. Just because I was hunting (wait, can't be hunting if I'm guiding my dog from the truck) and not on horseback doesn't mean I can't appreciate an "all age" dog. That's all I was saying, I can appreciate that kind of dog.

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by DGFavor » Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:16 pm

Roger that, I suppose it would take alot of miles if one was limited to only the birds next to the roads!! :wink: :lol: :lol:
That's all I was saying, I can appreciate that kind of dog.
I hear ya...I was just curious how do you even know "that kind of dog" when you say you haven't haven't been/haven't done/etc. Just found it interesting is all! :mrgreen:

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by slistoe » Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:26 pm

DGFavor wrote:Roger that, I suppose it would take alot of miles if one was limited to only the birds next to the roads!! :wink: :lol: :lol:
Do you really think there is a difference in the density of birds in the half mile from the road compared to the next half mile in? Not in my country, and I have walked most all of it.

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by SCT » Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:47 pm

Doug, you're right, I don't know and it was ignorant of me to spout off something i really haven't seen, specifically all age field trials. But your comment about hunting out of the truck isn't less offensive.

Have you ever hunted sage grouse in December or January? My season lasts 6 months long and when winter hits sage grouse group up and can be many miles from where you might find them in the fall, around water. It takes a pretty nice dog to go out in that beautiful, but desolate country to find a slip for my falcon. Some dogs do stay within a few hundred yards of the gravel road or two trackers, but I've owned a couple that would stretch out and find grouse and many times after being on the ground for two to three hours. You spend a few days (or decades) in that experience and you may not think so lowly of it as a form of hunting.

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by DGFavor » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:04 am

Do you really think there is a difference in the density of birds in the half mile from the road compared to the next half mile in?
I can confidently answer that with "it depends...". :wink: :lol:

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by bb560m » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:52 am

ATV or horse only!!!

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:55 am

Most of the places I have hunted, chasing or shooting from a vehicle is a great way to lose the vehicle, gun, licence,and about 5 or 10 thousand dollars cash. In other words they don't call that hunting but is normally refered to as poaching. Of course we don't have the unlimited acres that many hunt from a horse.

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by birddog1968 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:15 am

Road hunting is perfectly legal in quite a few places (if you follow the rules).....Like where i live (maryland), Illinois is another nanny government that consistently over reaches is purpose. To compare Illinois to Wyoming is beyond a stretch.


who said anything about shooting from a vehicle?
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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by SCT » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:28 am

birddog1968 wrote:Road hunting is perfectly legal in quite a few places (if you follow the rules).....Like where i live (maryland), Illinois is another nanny government that consistently over reaches is purpose. To compare Illinois to Wyoming is beyond a stretch.
You got that right birddog. This topic is digressing away from the original post in a hurry.

HB AA field trials have their place, and even though they are not set up to be similar to a typical means of hunting, I'm sure glad I can utilize their offspring for my purposes.

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:23 pm

bb560m wrote:I would think most "bird dogs" would get bored running and running and never finding birds, what is the point? They're just running to run off at that point.
You might be correct, if you were talking about dogs in general, but you are incorrect when talking about a "bird dog". Bird dogs hunt. Some hunt close, some hunt at middlin' ranges and some hunt at extreme range. If they are in the field and not hunting, they ain't much of a bird dog. If they are running around under your feet or out a half mile and not hunting, they ain't much of a bird dog.

A real bird dog can get physically exhausted, but I ain't seen one yet that got tired of hunting. If I did...it would become fertilizer...or someone's pet... reasonably quickly.

To some dogs, and some hunters, the fact that there are no birds in their immediate search area means only that. To some dogs, and some hunters, the fact that there are no birds in their immediate search area means that they MUST expand their search area.

I absolutely guarantee that there are some dogs that are out there on the horizon that are running to hear the wind whistle past their ears. They don't usually have a long lifespan. I also absolutely guarantee that there are many, many dogs that are out there on the horizon that are hunting their hearts out and when they do find a bird, they will point it and wait for you to get there. You may not care for that kind of dog, and that is OK... but that is what I(and some others) live to see.

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:57 pm

Great topic. I am just chiming in so I can get topic notifications on this subject. I had a good AA prospect that won a RU AA Futurity several years ago. Sent him to a pro (a good one) and the dog came back insecure, pointing every bush and yo yoing all over the place. After reflecting on the situation I noticed that the pro had good competitive "gun dogs" on his string but rarley if any AA dogs. I sent him to the pro because I don't have a horse and frankly a little wary about breaking out an AA. I have done plenty of gun dogs but never a AA prospect. I don't know if their is really a difference but something happened to this guy. As a side note to be fair, the Pro had one of my gun dogs and ran her for several seasons with very good success untill a neighbor shot her when she got loose. (never found out who that was, but still looking) Sorry to get off track.

What are the differences of training a AA vs a Gun Dog. Hope this question is close enough to the thread to get feedback.

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by slistoe » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:11 pm

I looked on your website a little - hard to tell which dogs are yours. I saw one that I am very familiar with the ancestry. Should have been an AA dog I would think if it inherited the right mix of the ancestors.

Anyway, an old saw around these parts who has since passed on was always shy of accolades for the derby sensation - "Wait till you see if they break out." was his mantra. A lot of promising young dogs won't hold their confidence to hunt through the breaking process. Therein lies the art of the trainer IMO.

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:28 pm

slistoe wrote:I looked on your website a little - hard to tell which dogs are yours. I saw one that I am very familiar with the ancestry. Should have been an AA dog I would think if it inherited the right mix of the ancestors.

Anyway, an old saw around these parts who has since passed on was always shy of accolades for the derby sensation - "Wait till you see if they break out." was his mantra. A lot of promising young dogs won't hold their confidence to hunt through the breaking process. Therein lies the art of the trainer IMO.
Its hard to tell anything about your background but it appears that you know brittanys. The AA prospect that I am talking about was sired by NFC Rebel Jac's a Hammerin Dandy out of RU NFC Ajax Diamond Dyna-mite. And the "art of the trainer" is what I'm interested in.

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by SCT » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:08 pm

slistoe wrote:
" Therein lies the art of the trainer IMO".
Great quote Stephen.

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by slistoe » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:04 pm

AZ Brittany Guy wrote:
slistoe wrote:I looked on your website a little - hard to tell which dogs are yours. I saw one that I am very familiar with the ancestry. Should have been an AA dog I would think if it inherited the right mix of the ancestors.

Anyway, an old saw around these parts who has since passed on was always shy of accolades for the derby sensation - "Wait till you see if they break out." was his mantra. A lot of promising young dogs won't hold their confidence to hunt through the breaking process. Therein lies the art of the trainer IMO.
Its hard to tell anything about your background but it appears that you know brittanys. The AA prospect that I am talking about was sired by NFC Rebel Jac's a Hammerin Dandy out of RU NFC Ajax Diamond Dyna-mite. And the "art of the trainer" is what I'm interested in.
I can tell you stories of some of the ancestors of Koda Sutra.

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:45 pm

slistoe wrote:
AZ Brittany Guy wrote:
slistoe wrote:I looked on your website a little - hard to tell which dogs are yours. I saw one that I am very familiar with the ancestry. Should have been an AA dog I would think if it inherited the right mix of the ancestors.

Anyway, an old saw around these parts who has since passed on was always shy of accolades for the derby sensation - "Wait till you see if they break out." was his mantra. A lot of promising young dogs won't hold their confidence to hunt through the breaking process. Therein lies the art of the trainer IMO.
Its hard to tell anything about your background but it appears that you know brittanys. The AA prospect that I am talking about was sired by NFC Rebel Jac's a Hammerin Dandy out of RU NFC Ajax Diamond Dyna-mite. And the "art of the trainer" is what I'm interested in.
I can tell you stories of some of the ancestors of Koda Sutra.
Kool. Jayhawerk dogs or Mag Masked Man? I had a bitch that was Rockey on top and Masked Man on the bottom. Loved that dog, she was my best to date. I bred Kody to my bitch that was Rocky on top and NLB on the bottom and my customers have been very happy with the pups. I like the dark orange you get with Kody.

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by slistoe » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:14 pm

Spotted Sharptail Jayma. Her Grandmother was Sharptail Sheila. Sheila was the first Brittany in this part of the country to get the respect of the long tail folks sometime about the late 70's. She was a wild child but when she put it together she was capable of winning against all comers around here. Her son Sharptail Prairie Prince was the youngest dog to win the CKC Pheasant Championship (that record has since been bested). Shortly after that he put out an eye on a branch in the field while hunting which ended his competition career. Prince was sold to a fellow for a hunting dog and he knew nothing of the dogs background or performance awards, only that he was the best darn hunting dog he had ever owned. I bought a pup from him the first year he bred him to his bitch. That dog could fly and find birds. At the time I abhored field trials (influence of the popular press on a budding young hunter) and had bought a pup from what I thought was straight up hunting stock - and by all accounts some of the best around. Unfortunately this dog was run over on the road by our home at 2 years of age. I only found out about the background years later. Years and a few dogs later I saw Jayma and introduced myself because the dog I saw was my dog all over again. As it turns out Jayma was a much younger sister of my dog from the same two parents. Anyhow, at this time I had started to get involved in a club and the Hunt Tests. So, Jayma was bred and I had to have a pup. I ran that dog in the field trials and he was Derby Dog of the Year. I think that got other breedings to Jayma a little interest and she was being bred to top tier sires. Then there was a fellow running a Britt - Allbritts Kansas Kate out of Kansas Kid. That dog was flat out winning everything. She was the whole package. He bred her to Ojibwa's DLD Bandit. There were pups running up here from 3 different breeding to Bandit and there wasn't a one of them I didn't like. A fellow got a dog from that he called Doc - Allbritts Wild Kid the Outlaw. I don't think Doc finished as we are running Shooting Dog Courses out here and Doc used too much country most of the time. When the owner got out of the dogs and trial game he sold Doc to a fellow as a hunting dog and to my surprise Doc turned up at my place for a few shoots on the Pheasant Preserve. Anyway, when Lori was looking to breed Kiddy I suggested Doc because he had style and nose, but above all he had ground power. Always hard, always front and always digging deep. A hunting dog befitting of the name.
A little bit of history about your dog.

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by slistoe » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:30 pm

AZ Brittany Guy wrote: And the "art of the trainer" is what I'm interested in.
The e-collar has allowed modern trainers to get more out of dogs that would have been washed out of the older programs. The retriever folks are light years ahead in this department, but the pointing guys are catching up quick.

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Re: One for the AA set.

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:56 am

Thanks for the history. There are a lot of great Britts that came from Canadian stock an this is another example. Its my understand that Beans Blaze came from Canada.

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