I need to make a decision ASAP

[John S]

hi everyone, I know I could probably spend time searching rfor the answer to this but I honestly do not have the time right now. I have a 9mo Brittany. "Scout" has been a great pup and looked to be very promising. 4 weeks ago I brought Scout to a reputable trainer to get him started on live birds. It was my hope and intention to have Scout partially ready to accompany us on hunts at the club preserve starting the 2nd week of Oct. I've communicated with the trainer weekly and have even gone up and spent time with Scout on no training (Sat) days. The trainers report has been that he is a great pup, very energetic and with a strong desire, but has not pointed at all.
Where I am at right now is that I need to decide whether or not to leave the pup with the trainer for another month. The trainers opinion is that it would be best to leave him for at least one more month, possible even longer. My issue is that with three daughters starting college it is a tough financial decision.
I spoke with the trainer today and he told me that Scout had not pointed on the first bird this morning, but pointed very strong on the second bird. That he pointed is nice, but one point in over three weeks is not consistent...to me anyway.

My option is that our preserve will start to stock birds in 2 weeks and the primary hunt days are Sat/Sun. I have unlimited access to the preserve during the week and can bring the pup out and let him work for a while each day. If I were to do this I would ask for some guidance on what to have him do/not do.
In addition to that I have about 60 acres of fields that I can use, but they have no resident bird population to speak of. How difficult is it to set up and house birds? Should I even consider this at this point?
Lastly, I've just joined NAVHDA and will be meeting some of the locals at their testing this weekend.

[ultracarry]

Long term commitments don't have short term answers. Should have bought a GSP .

[kninebirddog]

Wow pup is still young has lots of drive
I wouldn't worry about point at this time..work on helping to take the chase out....people are always in such a hurry to make broke dogs out of puppies
If someone tries to force the pup to point this can be a set up to making the dog blink birds in the long run

Take the pup wild bird hunting and only shoot those birds which he pointed do not shoot birds which your dog has caused to flush...then after the season is done and the dog has had time to mature take him back to a trainer

[PntrRookie]

...I've just joined NAVHDA and will be meeting some of the locals at their testing this weekend.

Good decision and that will benefit you in the long run. I would not put the dog in ANY situation where he has the opportunity to catch birds. That could happen at a preserve, or on your 60 acres (with no one to help you control the training), etc. Some how some way I would let the trainer continue. If you give him the chance to catch birds he may never point (or make your training longer and more expensive). JMO...if it was all wild birds, I would say bring him home and have at it...

[volraider]

K-9 is right on the money about the wild birds. This pup needs to be hunted on wild birds and take a camera, no shooting until she's pointing birds for you. I think the worst thing you could do is take a pup to the preserve, pen released birds are horrible for a high drive puppy lacking in point. I would hunt wild birds this year then send him to the trainer to be finished this spring. The number one thing for this pup is that he learns to repect birds and wild birds will teach him that respect.

[birddog1968]

I'd of had a 9 month old britt honest on birds 2 -3 months ago....find a new trainer.

[aulrich]

My pup was not showing much point at all a month ago (just over 6 months now) but some wild birds changed that. but the funny part is we have not found any wilds while hunting, they are in the off leash area by my house.

TheOffLeash.JPG

My point is there could be some oddball pockets of wild birds right under your nose. Ironically for me is I walked that off leash most every day for months, and only saw one bird, then another guy with a griff pup asked how my pup was liking the birds, and it was ? what birds and as it turns out all I had to do was extend my walk route a few hundred yards and we would find birds.

Since Monday, we have flushed 30+ hungarians and 3 phesants, plenty of bumps and flushes but in the process his point has solidified enough he is ready for some steadying work.

I might seed in a few pen raised hens to make sure there are always playmates, but shhh don't tell anyone.

[ezzy333]

I'd of had a 9 month old britt honest on birds 2 -3 months ago....find a new trainer.

Sounds like you are president of your own fan club and you are a little over enthused with your ability. Every pup is different so there is no time table and in all honesty most every pup I have seen that was trained the first year comes unglued the second. Pups just need to be pups and need to learn as much as possible through their own experiences and at their own pace. Our job is to get them into situations where they can do just that. Later we will polish them to make them presentable when we take them out in public.

Ezzy

[John S]

Thanks All, I am a bit jealous of some of the areas that you all have to work with. Unfortunately trying to find wild birds anywhere in this area is next to impossible. At least on land available to the public. I have put some feelers out to a few of the local farmers to what I can find out.

[RayGubernat]

johnS -

9 mos. is VERY young for a Brittany. Heck that is pretty young for a pointer!

The fact that it is not pointing, but just running and chasing is not at all unusual and depending on how the pup has been brought along, might be very normal and desirable.

You need to gear down and get your expectations back in the realm of reality, I think. I do not intend to offend, but It sure sounds like you are being unrealistic in your expectations, considering where the dog is at the moment. If I am wrong, I apologize. If I am right, you need to make some new plans on how to proceed.

If the dog is not pointing with any reliability, you are a couple months(at least) away from a useable pointing dog. Why not use that time to the pups best advantage and have some fun at the same time? We all want to have our dogs come along on our timeline...that is human nature and our own impatience... but it just don't work that way. And YES I am guilty of it also. We all are to some degree. The fact of the matter is that Your pup will do what it is going to do when it is ready to. Trying to push it usually ends up badly for the dog unless you really, really know what you are doing and even then sometimes.

If you have unlimited access to a preserve, perhaps you should hunt the dog on scratch pheasants and only shoot what the dog points. If the dog runs and busts birds, at least you didn't pay $25 apiece to watch them fly out of the county. I would stay away from quail, because the dog can cath penraised quail and that WILL set you back.

I would also do some work on your home grounds, but I would get and use pigeons. I would do stop to flush work to get the dog convinced that chasing was hopeless. If you can wangle some remote launchers, fantastic. If not, you can carry a bag of birds with you and toss one as the dog cruises by. The neat thing abut pigeons is that they will NOT land on the ground so there is virtually no chance the pup will ever catch one. They are also usually pretty cheap, as training birds go.

I would also do some yardwork drills to reinforce the stopping and standing.

Patience and persistence will get you there. Good luck.

RayG

[birddog1968]

I'd of had a 9 month old britt honest on birds 2 -3 months ago....find a new trainer.

Sounds like you are president of your own fan club and you are a little over enthused with your ability. Every pup is different so there is no time table and in all honesty most every pup I have seen that was trained the first year comes unglued the second. Pups just need to be pups and need to learn as much as possible through their own experiences and at their own pace. Our job is to get them into situations where they can do just that. Later we will polish them to make them presentable when we take them out in public.

Ezzy

Just facts..........and i think, "2 to 3 months" ago allows plenty of time to get a youngster just pointing and most holding birds. There's more than one road to China training wise..... There are ways that have the dog holding birds honestly without ever putting a hand on a dog or a e collar or even most times a checkcord. They stand their birds because they want to......not because they were made to stand. Again We're not even talking "started" just pointing a bird, and most allowing you to walk in.

My Fan club......no.....The only Fan club i belong to is of the fella who was gracious enough to teach me.

[ultracarry]

If they don't scent point by 6 months its not what I'm looking for. Kinda what you would expect a dog to do if they were a POINTING breed. I have one that's been pointing since she was on birds as a puppy. Hasn't come unglued since.

Yes all dogs can backtrack in training, but they have to progress first before they fall back.

[John S]

I'm posting the following for the benefit of some of the commentators here...
This picture was taken at 10 weeks old back in March about 10 days after we got the pup. Since our clubs preserve is only about 2 miles from home I decided to bring the pup over during a Sunday hunt to introduce him to some of the club members. One member took a harvested pheasant hen and planted it in some of the grass. Scout picked up the scent about 30' away and bee lined to it.


This second picture was taken about 3 weeks later on a live grouse about 10' away.


Unfortunately Scout has not been worked on live birds since until bringing him to the trainer. With two exceptions. I've brought him to two different trainers for evaluations, the first at about 4 mos, the second at about 6 mos. In both cases the trainers indicated that the pup had a strong natural drive and desire and should do fine. But they both cautioned about starting the pup too early with about 8mo being the minimum.
If I had been aware of the NAVHDA local chapter earlier I am sure there would have been a difference in his training. But alas, until now I have not had any access to live birds either live or penned. Hopefully that will change after this weekend.

[slistoe]

Everyone is in a hurry. Your pup has point. Your pup has bird drive. Now your pup needs to learn how to find birds. Pointing is rather pointless if he isn't finding. A preserve is not the place to do that.

My pups operate much like yours - the scent point coming out of the box. At 6 months they don't even hesitate - and I don't care. They need to love the game, and the game is finding birds, not pointing them. Once they have shown that they are very good at the game I can add more rules (you need to point the birds you have found). Ray has alluded to a successful method bor bringing back the point over the chase.

[John S]

Everyone is in a hurry. Your pup has point. Your pup has bird drive. Now your pup needs to learn how to find birds. Pointing is rather pointless if he isn't finding. A preserve is not the place to do that.

This makes a lot of sense, thanks for putting things in perspective. The only think that I do not fully grasp is why would'nt the preserve be a place to work the pup on birds?

[slistoe]

Everyone is in a hurry. Your pup has point. Your pup has bird drive. Now your pup needs to learn how to find birds. Pointing is rather pointless if he isn't finding. A preserve is not the place to do that.

This makes a lot of sense, thanks for putting things in perspective. The only think that I do not fully grasp is why would'nt the preserve be a place to work the pup on birds?

Because if you have no way of controlling the dog after the flush he will self reward with a caught bird, becoming more and more aggressive to the flush/chase rather than less so.

[John S]

Everyone is in a hurry. Your pup has point. Your pup has bird drive. Now your pup needs to learn how to find birds. Pointing is rather pointless if he isn't finding. A preserve is not the place to do that.

This makes a lot of sense, thanks for putting things in perspective. The only think that I do not fully grasp is why would'nt the preserve be a place to work the pup on birds?

Because if you have no way of controlling the dog after the flush he will self reward with a caught bird, becoming more and more aggressive to the flush/chase rather than less so.

Ok, and this is compounded by pen raised birds because they have a tendency to sit tight longer than wild birds, Correct?
Would working with the dog on a 30' lead work, or what other means of controlling the dog. I've read a lot about using bird launchers to release a bird as soon as the dog scents the bird. This conditions the dog to hang back and not rush in, building patience in the dog if I understand correctly. I am now actively looking for at least two launchers, still no luck on anywhere with wild birds though.

[slistoe]

Ok, and this is compounded by pen raised birds because they have a tendency to sit tight longer than wild birds, Correct?
Would working with the dog on a 30' lead work, or what other means of controlling the dog. I've read a lot about using bird launchers to release a bird as soon as the dog scents the bird. This conditions the dog to hang back and not rush in, building patience in the dog if I understand correctly. I am now actively looking for at least two launchers, still no luck on anywhere with wild birds though.

Pen raised birds are a problem because they will make one short flight and then a chasing dog will run them down. Flushing birds from a launcher is not a solution if the birds are still making one short flight with the dog on their tail.
I work my dogs on birds with a 20' cord, but I have also worked with quite a few dogs that folks have messed up with poor flying, poor flushing birds and a CC. So I am not sure what to recommend to you on that front.

[ezzy333]

Your pen raised birds are sure differwent than what I have worked with. I have belonged to a hunt club for 40 years and the main reason is to have a place to run and train puppies. Native birds are fine for some things but there is a lot of training that goes much better when you can control where the bird is and when it will flush. I run the dogs on birds during the week that are birds that were released at least four or five days before and you will have trouble telling them from the natives.

Either is good but each is better in some ways when it comes to training.

Ezzy

[slistoe]

There is no doubt that for "training" a dog there is no substitute for control of where the birds are. Wild birds are too unpredictable for any reliability to the training. But most any 6 month or older pup I have ever had the chance to work with had no trouble returning with a flown bird - be it quail, chukar or pheasant. Perhaps the cover is much different in your area and it is impossible for the dog to mark the bird down and find it again?
With the pheasant especially, after 4 or 5 days out ( I go with 2 days out myself) they will be much more difficult to find and will flush like wild birds, but the flights will still not be long enough to keep a zealous young dog from marking them down and the second flight is where the dog will get them - consistently.

[ezzy333]

I see very few flights less than a 1/4 mile and a lot of them somewhere near a 1/2 I would guess but I can't always tell since they fly out where I can't see them.

Ezzy

[slistoe]

I have never seen a wild pheasant make a 1/2 mile flight. 300 yards would be the outer limit. Sharptail are the only bird I have hunted that will fly that far, which is why following up on the flush of Sharpies is futile.

[Ruffshooter]

IMO
I did not read every post so take this for what ever.
You dog is young, not with the trainer very long. You have a dog with the tools. Don't put so much pressure on yourself and do not worry about this first season as far as how well the pup will do. Just give him opportunity to learn from birds.

If your dog will recall very well.
Get to the weekend pack up and go to:
Head north to Plats burg, Or go into VT or any where in Northern New England and go to the logging roads, Not the main logging roads but older less traveled roads, drive around till you find some Road Ruffs. Put the CC on the dog lead it over to where the bird went into the woods, once the dog starts pulling or sniffing around in the right direction let him go. Let him learn from the king. The birds, Keep your mouth closed while the dog works. Do this a few times times and the light will come on once he starts bumping or busting the birds, you will see a change in the puppy. You will see him start to use his head.

Also, remember the woodcock are begining their flights. Put him in the woodcock areas and let him go.

I am not even talking about hunting yet. (I did not notice)Hast he dog even been introduced to the gun and is good with it?)
But even do this during open season of Ruffs and if the pup works up a bird and even if the bird bust or bumps it an you can shoot it do it. Just do not get in habbit of shooting improperly worked birds. But for a few it is okay and the pup will know the end game.
IMO

[luvmydogs]

You are asking for opinions, so here is mine. I would bring your dog home and work with it yourself. What are your goals for the dog? Do you want a hunting buddy and will you be mostly preserve hunting? If so, work it yourself on your local preserve. If you want to compete with this dog, you may want to send it back to a trainer later on. We own a hunting preserve (pheasants) in Michigan. It is very uncommon here for a dog to catch the pheasant, as some others have mentioned. We trained our pups on our own facility and they are still great hunters for wild birds off the preserve. You can learn a lot about your dog (what may work and what won't) just by spending field time with it. Every dog is different.

[DogNewbie]

Ok, and this is compounded by pen raised birds because they have a tendency to sit tight longer than wild birds, Correct?
Would working with the dog on a 30' lead work, or what other means of controlling the dog. I've read a lot about using bird launchers to release a bird as soon as the dog scents the bird. This conditions the dog to hang back and not rush in, building patience in the dog if I understand correctly. I am now actively looking for at least two launchers, still no luck on anywhere with wild birds though.

If you can't trust your dog on point you definitely don't want to take the risk of the pup catching birds. Sounds like whether or not pen raised birds can get caught or not is under debate....If you decide to go the preserve route I wouldn't use a cc. Either you are going to be restricting and teaching the pup that 30' is the correct range to hunt, or the pup will be dragging the cc and it won't really make a difference if the birds are weak fliers. If he held point consistently until you reached him, that would be different, but that not the case. It just sounds a little risky to me personally. I would want to work in a more controlled environment on a cc for a while more and let his point come around before you trust the pup to hold on a pen raised bird that he may or may not catch....

[bossman]

I may have missed it in the previous posts, what has your dog been introduced to the gun??? By the way, good looking pup.

[John S]

I may have missed it in the previous posts, what has your dog been introduced to the gun??? By the way, good looking pup.

Yes, he was accidentally introduced to gunfire at about 14 weeks old. At that time he showed no adverse affect whatsoever. Since then he has spent most Sundays at the gun club while the wife and I shoot trap and skeet. There are two other Brittanies and a GSP and they all pal around together. I've played fetch with him for the past 3 months using a dummy launcher and now when he hears a gunshot his head comes up looking around for something to retrieve.

[bossman]

In all due respect, I'd be doing things diffrerently. How was he "accidentally" introduced to gunfire??? Why are you taking him to the gun club in the first place?? Different dogs mature differently. Brittany's may mature just a little slowe than some other breeds ( no offense to Brittany owners, I had them for 25 years). Go back to square one. Let him run in some open country chasing (and pointing) butterflys and field birds. Buy a copy of the "Perfect Start" video. After some time I've always liked to got to a preserve and work a dog on a few Chukar's on a cc ( I like the way a Chukar holds for a dog). If the worst thing that happened is that he is ready next year intead of this year, thats not a bad thing. Just take it slower and see how he is doing toward Dec. If all goes well, you will have the pleasure of hunting with him for many years. Good luck. All this is just my opinion.

[birddog1968]

I may have missed it in the previous posts, what has your dog been introduced to the gun??? By the way, good looking pup.

Yes, he was accidentally introduced to gunfire at about 14 weeks old. At that time he showed no adverse affect whatsoever. Since then he has spent most Sundays at the gun club while the wife and I shoot trap and skeet. There are two other Brittanies and a GSP and they all pal around together. I've played fetch with him for the past 3 months using a dummy launcher and now when he hears a gunshot his head comes up looking around for something to retrieve.

I've seen people do this at trap ranges and never really understood......I've got a pair of dogs with 10,000 birds shot between them, and they would sit shivering and scared at a trap range. Some folks get away with doing it that way but its not really relateable (i just made up a word ) to what a hunting dog experiences in the field. I even had my male dog at the range last year when i just stopped by for a minute and some fella asked "how can you hunt with that dog he's afraid of guns" ...... The range is just sensory overload with no fun associated for a dog. JMHO.

[Sharon]

Everyone is in a hurry. Your pup has point. Your pup has bird drive. Now your pup needs to learn how to find birds. Pointing is rather pointless if he isn't finding. A preserve is not the place to do that.

My pups operate much like yours - the scent point coming out of the box. At 6 months they don't even hesitate - and I don't care. They need to love the game, and the game is finding birds, not pointing them. Once they have shown that they are very good at the game I can add more rules (you need to point the birds you have found). Ray has alluded to a successful method bor bringing back the point over the chase.

WEll said.

[brdhntr]

I am no expert on Britts, but my experience with a friends young dogs was the same as what you are seeing. His dogs both from a well respected and successful kennel were also slow to point. They are fine now. My one question is in the time the dog has been at the trainer what has he accomplished? what commands has been picked up? Specifically is he Whoa trained? If he whoas reliably I think you can work with him on your own, but as Ezzy said do not shoot non pointed birds. I also agree that game preserves are a great place to prep a dog for the real world but if they do not handle their birds properly or guy good birds they will not fly or act wild. If that's the case find a new game farm.

[mountaindogs]

My 8 yr old's football coach is ready for his team to go to championships. He pushes the kids and expects high school level play out of them. Sure several of the kids are really good, but most of them are just learning. THEY ARE 8 YRS OLD!!! His high intensity must win way of coaching leaves the less experienced players on the sidelines getting yelled at. Very quick way to make them hate that game. If he would teach them the game and let them play with guidance now that would perhaps develope some players.
The parallels are not so far off...