Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

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Ghosted3
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Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by Ghosted3 » Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:27 pm

Do pointers have any bred instinct / desire to retrieve, or do you have to teach them the FF method? I ask because one day I would like to own (rescue or buy pups) most of the hunting breeds.

Corry

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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:22 pm

All of the sporting bird dogs have the instinct to retrieve but some individuals of any breed may not.

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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by gotpointers » Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:15 am

Definitely not as natural as a lab. But its not too big of a deal to get them started. I had one female pointer that would have done very well in the dock dog competitions. And another that did some amazing retrieves after of some downed quail that were falling 100 plus yards below me while we hunted a large bluff. I have raised and hunted with labs far longer than i have pointers. I don't take them duck hunting in icy water. Or try to send them on a blind retrieve. But they will happily fetch the ball alongside the Labs in the yard. And gladly bring back the birds i shoot after they point them.

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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by RayGubernat » Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:31 am

Pointers are not labradors, so if someone is expecting that level of retrieving desire, they will probably be disappointed.

However, their desire to retrieve, as a breed, is no different than that of any other pointing breed. As a breed they are more prone to avoid water than some others,but that can be overcome.

If you shoot a bird, they will bring it back. As stated previously, some individuals will do it better than others.

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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by AzDoggin » Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:09 am

Gentlemen - the next question might be "can the upland specialist that might like to retrieve be identified at 8 weeks?" I suspect not, but would be interested in your experiences...

Guessing a person would want to look to the parents (and grandparents), and litter histories in attempt to stack the odds in favor of identifying a young individual pup with some "retrieve tendency" in him?

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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by gotpointers » Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:08 am

AzDoggin wrote:Gentlemen - the next question might be "can the upland specialist that might like to retrieve be identified at 8 weeks?" I suspect not, but would be interested in your experiences...

Guessing a person would want to look to the parents (and grandparents), and litter histories in attempt to stack the odds in favor of identifying a young individual pup with some "retrieve tendency" in him?
I have done it with grouse woods lines, AA lines, shooting dog lines. Meat and potatos lines.

My advice buddy the Pointer up with a lab and introduce it to shallow water in the summer. The pointer pup is not just going to stand there while his buddy has all the fun.
I am not kidding that elhew line female pointer from Clarence at Great Basin Kennel hit the water with major speed and enthusiasum. She was still leaping as the labs were swimming. She smoked them on the run to it also everytime. I could have had a dock dog winner if she hadint been killed by the fur loving langharr.

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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by Ghosted3 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:14 am

Thank you all for the feedback it is much appreciated. I understand that a EP would not retrieve like a lab or chessie, I was more concerned about upland stuff like quail and phez mainly. I am really loving becoming a a part of the bird hunting community, and I am wanting to get a couple more dogs before long lol.

Corry

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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by birddog1968 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:13 pm

Na no retrieve disire, not even at 12 weeks old
Image

Image


Nope not here either....
Image


They got on average, from my experience, just as much retrieve drive as any lab or chessie......build high prey drive and you have retrieve drive if you develop it......

Chief Honcho dog
Image
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Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by Gooseman07 » Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:18 am

I think it all depends how you start the pup at a young age as well. If you work only on birdiness, ie. pointing, holding, steady, etc. you may struggle later on when you want the dog to retrieve. If you start strictly on retrieving stuff, ball, small bumper, etc. you will have a retrieving maniac like me. I didn't know what to do as far as drills go with the pointing stuff besides wing and live birds until I joined a club. I am struggling now with his steadiness because it wasn't introduced at a formative part of his life. I am starting to feel confident with his blind retrieves after about 3 months of doing them and he can mark with the best of them.

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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by displaced_texan » Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:05 pm

Some of the best retrieving dogs I've seen were EPs.

Possibly the worst I've ever seen was a lab, supposedly from great breeding.

I've never seen an EP that didn't like the water, all mine have loved it.
I have English Pointers because they don't ever grow up either...

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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by Trekmoor » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:35 am

I've only trained one E.P. and she was show bred. The old lady who owned her wanted her trained as I did with my G.S.P.'s so that's what I did. She wouldn't have won any pointer trials or lab trials but she was as good as most G.S.P.'s. She liked retrieving .

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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by ckirsch » Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:38 am

I have two pointers, of completely separate bloodlines, and they both retrieve every bit as well than the Weims and wire that I owned previously. As a matter of fact, both were much quicker to pick up water retrieves than the other breeds. I've not asked them to pick up fur, so I can't say that they would or wouldn't, but I don't recall that being a concern of the original poster.

Start pointers retrieving early, cultivate it, and your chances of having a reliable retriever are pretty good. If you're a cold weather waterfowler, you'd obviously be better off with a wirehaired breed, but most pointers can hold their own on upland retrieving.

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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by ckirsch » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:12 pm

Wow, you're really on a campaign here, aren't you? History lessons, book quotes, references to greyhounds, etc. I'd already mentioned that I wouldn't recommend pointers for cold weather water work, but you felt necessary to trot out the obvious again. I'll never understand why some so relish any opportunity to denigrate the breed.

Fact of the matter is that although rarely entered in NAVHDA tests, as a breed they've done surprisingly well. Regarding your book quotes, most breeds have evolved a bit since 1650. How was yours doing about then?

The OP enquired if pointers have any instinct or desire to retrieve. Several of us who run them answered that we've found they do. If you had one that flat out refused to retrieve, I'll submit that it is you who had the anomaly. I'm not claiming that pointers will retrieve better than retrieving specialists, or even the continentals, just that with a minimum of effort most can become serviceable retrievers. Mine are as good at it as the continentals I've owned, and didn't need to be initially coaxed into the water like the Weims and Wire I had prior to the pointers.

Answer the poster's question any way you care to, and allow others to do the same.

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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by AzDoggin » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:29 pm

DougSmitty wrote:
Bottom line: Depends on the dog.
Smitty, you should have stopped with that sentence right there - it was the most accurate one that you wrote.

I know for a fact that ckirsch has a pointer that is a NAVHDA VC, and can and does retrieve in and out of water all day long if asked to.

So, yeah, you were right - it depends on the dog (and maybe even the line).

Maybe those generalizations written in sixteen hundred and froze-to-death don't apply anymore? Or, maybe they do, and it depends on the dog.

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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by Ghosted3 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:43 pm

I am sorry, I really didnt mean to start a heated debate here. Like I had mentioned in a previous post, I would like to own various hunting breeds, to make things easier for myself if my son and myself decide to get an EP sometime I will make sure to run my ESS on retrieve only duty :D

Corry

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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by ckirsch » Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:07 pm

I believed he asked about pointers, not setters. If you refer to your book, you'll learn that they are two different breeds. I found it interesting that your bible of dogdom describes the pointer as "standing motionless when he spots his game", then goes on in the next sentence to claim that they are "often used to flush out birds". Makes a ton of sense. Better put those boots back on.

Keep reading, Smitty, you'll get there. Eventually.

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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by gotpointers » Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:30 pm

Here's a very recent video of a Distant Shadow, Caladens Silver Belle pup posted by Oscar over on the Field Trialer today. This is a Millers White Powder, Joe Shadow, Guardrail, White Powder all age field trial type breeding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unWw3ty84po

I am not looking for breed fights, but showing what a pointer can do if given the oppourtunity.

In the words of Joe Dirt "home is where you make it"

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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by birddog1968 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:00 pm

What lines is it bred out of smitty......NONE of the field trial lines do much if any retrieving....but its all still there, they didn't breed it out they just haven't been
choosing for it.

Whens the last time a Miller pointer was bred to retrieve???? :lol:

Then tell me why they all love to do it ...... That picture above of the white puppy is 12 weeks old double white powder/twist and shout...... My male is old Miller's Chief/ House's Rain Cloud and he will do 200+ yard blind retrieves ....they both swim like they got outboards strapped to them. That Liver dog in the pic above is Fiddler/Rebel bred mostly....she's ape for retrieving especially in water. Every EVERY pointer I've owned has been an adept retriever, some like water more than others but all LOVED to retrieve !



Conversely - Just got done messing with a FC ESS that couldn't mark a steak if it landed 2 feet in front of him.....LOL.....whoops.....had to post that for ya Ghost :lol: :wink:
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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by AzDoggin » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:03 pm

gotpointers wrote:Here's a very recent video of a Distant Shadow, Caladens Silver Belle pup posted by Oscar over on the Field Trialer today. This is a Millers White Powder, Joe Shadow, Guardrail, White Powder all age field trial type breeding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unWw3ty84po

I am not looking for breed fights, but showing what a pointer can do if given the oppourtunity.

In the words of Joe Dirt "home is where you make it"
Great pup!! Man do I love well-bred hunting dog pups. Nothing but potential...

Here's a question for you: what % of a pups potential does an average owner/trainer bring out? No way to PROVE that answer, but it's interesting to think about.

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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by birddog1968 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:06 pm

AzDoggin wrote:
Here's a question for you: what % of a pups potential does an average owner/trainer bring out? No way to PROVE that answer, but it's interesting to think about.

Thats the Key question there !
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.

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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by brad27 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:09 pm

[quote="DougSmitty


The breed description of the Pointer:

The first recorded mentions of the Pointer were in England around 1650. The Pointer was developed by crossing the Italian Pointer, Foxhound, Bloodhound, Greyhound, Newfoundland, Setter, and the Bulldog. The name derived from the way the dog stands motionless when he spots his game as if he is pointing right at it. Before hunting with guns was popular, Pointers were used to find hare for the Greyhound to hunt.

The dogs are very quick and can cover a lot of ground in a short amount of time and are often used to flush out birds. They are not water dogs nor are expected to retrieve the kill. The dogs work great in warm weather but does not do well when it is very cold. The English Pointer often wins Pointing Field Trials over all other pointing breeds. The Pointer was first recognized by the AKC in 1884.
[/quote]
The Material contained herein may not be reproduced without the prior written approval of the author. Contents & Graphics Copyright © Dog Breed Info Center® (C) 1998- 2012 . All Rights Reserved. Our work is not Public Domain.
I sure hope you own that website. :lol:

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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by DougSmitty » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:51 pm

brad27 wrote: The Material contained herein may not be reproduced without the prior written approval of the author. Contents & Graphics Copyright © Dog Breed Info Center® (C) 1998- 2012 . All Rights Reserved. Our work is not Public Domain.
I sure hope you own that website. :lol:[/quote]


Thank you for caring about me, BUT Copyright pertains to one using said work for Material gain.

Im seeking nothing in that regard, but for educational purposes.

I will anticipate Alan Dirtsh*tz giving me a subpoena any day now.

I will then take him hunting, ... D*ck Cheney style.

Here is a copyright primer on FAIR Use FOR Educaational purposes, for the copyright bolsheviks.

http://theedublogger.com/2012/02/09/the ... e-commons/

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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by ckirsch » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:57 pm

You're reaching a little further with every post. If the poster had wanted information on setters, he'd likely have asked for it. You present yourself as an expert on pointers and their retrieving ability (or inability), then it comes out that your expertise is based on the fact that your setters won't fetch for you. Your picture of Alvin's lab has a caption stating that the Lab was to be used to flush the birds. Not sure how that strengthens your case. They often ride mule-drawn wagons on southern plantation hunts, so using your logic pointers probably can't hunt unless accompanied by mules.

Anyone wanting a pointer that will retrieve can find one.

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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by ckirsch » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:02 pm

Keep reading your books, googling obscure internet photos, and making petty internet insults, Smitty. I'm not interested in debating you any more, as it lowers me to your level, nobody's interested in reading any more of it, and I'm already busy conditioning dogs for the grouse opener, where they'll retrieve every bird I shoot. Works for me.

Good luck with that setter.....

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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by gotpointers » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:27 pm

birddog1968 wrote:What lines is it bred out of smitty......NONE of the field trial lines do much if any retrieving....but its all still there, they didn't breed it out they just haven't been
choosing for it.

Whens the last time a Miller pointer was bred to retrieve???? :lol:

Then tell me why they all love to do it ...... That picture above of the white puppy is 12 weeks old double white powder/twist and shout...... My male is old Miller's Chief/ House's Rain Cloud and he will do 200+ yard blind retrieves ....they both swim like they got outboards strapped to them. That Liver dog in the pic above is Fiddler/Rebel bred mostly....she's ape for retrieving especially in water. Every EVERY pointer I've owned has been an adept retriever, some like water more than others but all LOVED to retrieve !



Conversely - Just got done messing with a FC ESS that couldn't mark a steak if it landed 2 feet in front of him.....LOL.....whoops.....had to post that for ya Ghost :lol: :wink:
You picture is not coming up. Unless you are refering to Oscars dog. I don't see the liver one. Please repost id love to see them. I love the old miller dogs.

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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by gotpointers » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:30 pm

Smitty those are some nice looking setters in that picture, what's the breeding on them?

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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by gotpointers » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:59 pm

AzDoggin wrote:
gotpointers wrote:Here's a very recent video of a Distant Shadow, Caladens Silver Belle pup posted by Oscar over on the Field Trialer today. This is a Millers White Powder, Joe Shadow, Guardrail, White Powder all age field trial type breeding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unWw3ty84po

I am not looking for breed fights, but showing what a pointer can do if given the oppourtunity.

In the words of Joe Dirt "home is where you make it"
Great pup!! Man do I love well-bred hunting dog pups. Nothing but potential...

Here's a question for you: what % of a pups potential does an average owner/trainer bring out? No way to PROVE that answer, but it's interesting to think about.
I think you directed that question to me.
I wont touch that one. I am just a hunter with a some dogs. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But it sounds like we have that eye for the same type of dogs.

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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by birddog1968 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:59 pm

"The lab is awaiting the command to flush".....he'd be hard pressed to beat mine to the retrieve. :lol:

Just cause them boys wanna get fancy don't mean nothin ! :o
Last edited by birddog1968 on Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by birddog1968 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:02 pm

gotpointers wrote:
birddog1968 wrote:What lines is it bred out of smitty......NONE of the field trial lines do much if any retrieving....but its all still there, they didn't breed it out they just haven't been
choosing for it.

Whens the last time a Miller pointer was bred to retrieve???? :lol:

Then tell me why they all love to do it ...... That picture above of the white puppy is 12 weeks old double white powder/twist and shout...... My male is old Miller's Chief/ House's Rain Cloud and he will do 200+ yard blind retrieves ....they both swim like they got outboards strapped to them. That Liver dog in the pic above is Fiddler/Rebel bred mostly....she's ape for retrieving especially in water. Every EVERY pointer I've owned has been an adept retriever, some like water more than others but all LOVED to retrieve !



Conversely - Just got done messing with a FC ESS that couldn't mark a steak if it landed 2 feet in front of him.....LOL.....whoops.....had to post that for ya Ghost :lol: :wink:
You picture is not coming up. Unless you are refering to Oscars dog. I don't see the liver one. Please repost id love to see them. I love the old miller dogs.
Two pics at the top of the page my first post.....my honcho dog is not up there....
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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by gotpointers » Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:08 pm

birddog1968 wrote:
gotpointers wrote:
birddog1968 wrote:What lines is it bred out of smitty......NONE of the field trial lines do much if any retrieving....but its all still there, they didn't breed it out they just haven't been
choosing for it.

Whens the last time a Miller pointer was bred to retrieve???? :lol:

Then tell me why they all love to do it ...... That picture above of the white puppy is 12 weeks old double white powder/twist and shout...... My male is old Miller's Chief/ House's Rain Cloud and he will do 200+ yard blind retrieves ....they both swim like they got outboards strapped to them. That Liver dog in the pic above is Fiddler/Rebel bred mostly....she's ape for retrieving especially in water. Every EVERY pointer I've owned has been an adept retriever, some like water more than others but all LOVED to retrieve !



Conversely - Just got done messing with a FC ESS that couldn't mark a steak if it landed 2 feet in front of him.....LOL.....whoops.....had to post that for ya Ghost :lol: :wink:
You picture is not coming up. Unless you are refering to Oscars dog. I don't see the liver one. Please repost id love to see them. I love the old miller dogs.
Two pics at the top of the page my first post.....my honcho dog is not up there....
Great pictures, how did you force that liver dog to look so happy flying through the air? :wink:

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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by Ghosted3 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:02 pm

birddog1968 wrote:Conversely - Just got done messing with a FC ESS that couldn't mark a steak if it landed 2 feet in front of him.....LOL.....whoops.....had to post that for ya Ghost :lol: :wink:
My ESS can find food anywhere, and a tennis ball for the most part too, he is still learning :D

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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by Ghosted3 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:05 pm

gotpointers wrote:Great pictures, how did you force that liver dog to look so happy flying through the air? :wink:
Tossed a cat out in front of it smeared in BBQ sauce.

Corry

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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by birddogger » Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:18 am

birddog1968 wrote:"The lab is awaiting the command to flush".....he'd be hard pressed to beat mine to the retrieve. :lol:

Just cause them boys wanna get fancy don't mean nothin ! :o
Ain't that the truth ! And FWIW, the vast majority of pointers that I have had experience with have been very good natural retrievers with plenty of desire to do so.

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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by slistoe » Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:19 am

I have seen very few pointers that wouldn't retrieve if allowed to. I have seen far more GSP's that were hard mouth/bird eaters than pointers.

One time I was judging a hunt test and a fellow brought a derby age All Age pointer to the FD (SH) test. He had been breaking the dog and wanted birds shot over him in a competition setting to test/advance the training. By his admission this dog had never had a bird shot over it in it's life - ever. Nothing but blanks. The dog was not intended to be a hunting dog - he was grooming it for All Age trial competition only. Anyway, when the bird got up he whoas the dog and the dog focuses on him. The bird goes down and the fellow is very happy - to him the test was just won because all he wanted was to have the dog steady in the competition environment. He releases the dog and casts him off in the direction of the bird and the dog picks up wind and goes directly in on the bird, picks it up and prances a little before coming directly in on the recall and gently giving up the bird to his handler. On the second bird the dog actually saw the bird fall and the retrieve was a quick and pretty as the first. I suspect those are the only two retrieves that dog ever made in it's life, but it earned a passing ribbon and was voted gunners choice of the day for the dog they would like to hunt over.

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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by AzDoggin » Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:08 am

slistoe wrote: He releases the dog and casts him off in the direction of the bird and the dog picks up wind and goes directly in on the bird, picks it up and prances a little before coming directly in on the recall and gently giving up the bird to his handler. On the second bird the dog actually saw the bird fall and the retrieve was a quick and pretty as the first. I suspect those are the only two retrieves that dog ever made in it's life, but it earned a passing ribbon and was voted gunners choice of the day for the dog they would like to hunt over.
Nice. Sortof like finding a $20 bill in an old jacket pocket. I suspect there is quite a lot that well bred dogs can do that folks just don't ask of them. It's more of a human limitation than a dog limitation.

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Re: Pointer question (no familiararity with breed)

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:42 am

Azd I believe as you do our dogs capabilities are limited more by their owners & trainers more then themselves. :D

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