bird training what now?

[mister2]

Ok so I've been training my dog on pigeons a couple times a week for almost 2 months now. He will stop on scent and stay put for up to a minute. If i try to move up from the side he will move or give chase. I release the bird as soon as he moves. What do I do now? How do I get him to stay put long enough for me to flush the bird? He is always on a checkcord, I don't think he would stop if he wasn't.

[Doc E]

De-chasing is your answer.



.

[Sharon]

How old is your dog?

[4dabirds]

Sounds to me like you have put the cart before the horse. The dog has trained you to follow him to the birds, then he does what comes naturally ,point then chase. You need to get on a consistent training program that establishes benchmarks for training at the next level. Hickox, Smith etc.

[mister2]

My GSP is 1.5yrs.

By de-chasing do you mean let him chase and then correct via e-collar? I've been following the Perfect Start video and as far as I can see, I think I'm doing basically the same thing. I checkcord him in until he gives me an indication that he smells the bird, if he stops then great, if he doesn't stop then I stop him with the checkcord, once he's stopped if he tries to move again I release the bird. What am I doing wrong here? What are the benchmarks? Thanks.

[justsomedude]

My GSP is 1.5yrs.

By de-chasing do you mean let him chase and then correct via e-collar? I've been following the Perfect Start video and as far as I can see, I think I'm doing basically the same thing. I checkcord him in until he gives me an indication that he smells the bird, if he stops then great, if he doesn't stop then I stop him with the checkcord, once he's stopped if he tries to move again I release the bird. What am I doing wrong here? What are the benchmarks? Thanks.

I too have a 1.5yr old GSP and utilize the PS/PF training videos. I believe when the dog stops and points that this is the benchmark. No more and no less. At least it's what I used.

I forget the exact next step in the videos, but WHOA training should keep the dog from moving with distractions, i.e. you and/or birds. I’m on WHOA’ing off the check cord w/out birds, and when he points a wild bird around the back, no WHOA command from me yet, he’s already holding steadier with distractions.

Then again, I’m a total novice at this so I could also be way off base.

[ezzy333]

Still have no idea how old the pup is, how long has it been training with birds, etc? As a rule you can tell when the pup is ready to start steadying by his aqctions and how far he still chases and how easy is it to call him off. There us nothing wrong with a pup wanting to break, flush, or chase a bird but you need to be able to determine when to move to the next step. There is no way anyone can provide a good answer till you supply more info.

Ezzy

[Sharon]

My GSP is 1.5yrs.

.

[mister2]

He's 1.5yrs old. Been seriously training for about 2 months now. 1-2 pigeons per week and using a remote launcher.

[crazyboy]

I'm having a similar problem, hoping to get it figured out soon. He has definitely gotten steadier, but still thinks he is supposed to flush the bird/chase.

[bonasa]

If you have gotten some solid scent points and a bunch of relocate/road in on the bird it could be environmental issues. The heat can play a major problem, especially if the wind is swirling and shifting direction. The scent cone will be going up like a dust devil instead of skunking along the ground and out where the dog can pick it up. Try and pick and choose optimum scenting conditions: early in the morning with a good 5-10 mph steady wind when it is cooler out (60's or good fall temps) the ground and atmosphere are damp which will promote solid scent dispersion. You have control of the bird, set up in the best wind for control, and the method of your choice should walk you through the rest. Basically the dog is being taught bird manners, if the dog moves the bird is gone; if you move the bird stays...most of the time. Sounds like your dog is coming along and it will click.

[ibbowhunting]

its makes me feel better that i'm not the only one having this problem,when you get this figured out let me know

[4dabirds]

De-chasing is your answer.



.

do you do it with those eyes

[4dabirds]

At this point I would have had the dog on a barrel whoa training, then on a board whoa training, then would have transitioned the dog on these two apparatus with a bird in the launcher so the dog makes the connection that it is supposed to stand and watch the bird in the air. These may seem trivial but it helps the dog to understand what is expected. I see the advertising in the add for perfect start that you do not need these things with their program. So my question would be similar to yours what do you need to do. What is it in their program that makes the dog learn by association so the dog associates the bird with standing on point. In my opinion any correction at this point will take style from the dog. When a dog is trained in a manner that staying on point is what produces the bird, the dog will be likely to see the bird flying as reward for standing still as opposed to his movement producing the bird as reward. When a dog perceives his standing on point as reward this becomes the rewardable behavior that the dog will repeat.

[mister2]

Thanks 4dabirds but I'm nowhere near ready for a barrel or board training. My luck I would mess those up even worse. I agree I think any correction I give at this point would only take style from him. I noticed early on that Whoa would make him lose intensity and concentration and he would turn back to look at me so I've stopped using the command while on birds. But now how do I make him stay put?

Is it possible I am releasing the bird too late? Anytime he's given indication of catching scent but doesn't stop, I stop him myself. Then if he moves from that stopped position I would launch the bird. Should I have just launched it instead of trying to stop him initially?

[Sharon]

I feel like a one trick pony but did the dog ever get to chase and figure out he can't catch the bird ( hard flying pigeons). ? All this restraining of a dog is less necessary if he's been allowed to figure it out himself. I've never had to go through a big restraining process when this method is followed.

Dog chases. Learns HIMSELF that he can't catch birds. He starts to hesitate , creep at which point the cc or e- collar goes on and there is no more chasing.

The dog that hasn't learned this will always be at risk of breaking. JMO

[4dabirds]

I was just pointing out what I believe to be a big difference in traing philosophy. Sharon says let the dog chase and find out he can not catch. That is great as long as the dog does not. If the dog catches a bird that just improves the drive to try again. LaunchIng birds as the dog takes a step relies on the dog making the association that his action caused the loss. The dog may make the association that he caused the bird to fly and this may be rewarding to him.

[RayGubernat]

Mister2 -

FWIW I am a firm believer in not letting a youngster chase birds in general and definitely not when there is a possibilty of catching them. I also am a firm believer in doing a whole lot of yardwork on ingraining the whoa response in the yard before i put the dog on birds, to give the dog a clear path to success.

However, your dog is where it is and you need to move forward with it. Your dog is of an age where it is getting to be time to get it done.

Based on what you are telling us, I will assue that the dog is wearing a flat collar when you are working birds on a checkcord.

Here are my suggestions:

First I would lay off the bird work for a couple of weeks.

I would get a prong or pinch collar and start doing some yardwork with it during that time. I normally start with a wonder lead but your dog may be too oId and too strong for that now. I would do heel /whoa drills and make the dog stand while I walked around it and eventually in front of it. Get the dog used to you walkking in front of it without moving a toenail. Do ALL of this without saying a word. Let the prong or pinch collar say WHOA to the dog.

Then I would do the same yardwork drill and after I walked in front of the dog I would go behind the dog, pick up the checkcord, leave some slack in the cord and toss a pigeon. If the dog stood there...GREAT...if it took a few steps and then stood there...GREAT. If it chased, I would let it take the slack out of the cord and run up agains the prong or pinch collar closing on it. If the dog gets flipped over, which often happens, I would walk up the checkcord, physically pick the dog up, go back a couple stesp and set the dog up and stroke it up. When the dog is calmly standing there, I would toss another pigeon. If the dog chases...instant replay. If the dog takes a couple of steps, pop the cord to make contact and stop the dog, then walk up the checkcord, physically pick the dog up and set it back a couple of feet and style it up. Again...BE SILENT.

When you get into the breaking process, you need to go through it from start to finish. If you go at it with half measures,it is almost a certainty that the job will not get done right.

Soooo, don't start until the dog is ready.

However, you already have started, so you need to back up a bit and implant the idea that stopping and standing is a good idea. Then you can proceed to implanting the idea that stopping and standing when a bird is flying off..is also a good idea. What you want to do is to make the dog understand that the neck pinch means whoa and then the sight of a sitting bird means whoa and finally that the sight of the flying bird means whoa.

It has to be between the dog and the bird. That is why it is essential that you say nothing. Just grab the checkcord and hang on.

Don't forget that soft hands, reassuring hands and gentle strokes are vital in getting the dog to settle in. Your hands will say all that needs to be said to the dog. They will tell the dog that everything is all right. Firm... but gentle.

If you are uncomfortable with any of this, I strongly suggest that you get in contact with a pro trainer in your area. A good pro can take a dog though the process in about six to eight weeks(if it is ready for the pressure) and you will get back a broke dog that you can mobve forward with. The additional benefit is that any negative associations will be made with that trainer and not you.

Good luck with your youngster.

RayG