whoa on the run

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t-setter
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whoa on the run

Post by t-setter » Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:00 pm

I'm making fair progress with whoa training my dog when he's walking or running next to me at heel. However, I'm having some difficulty getting him to stop on a dime when he's running full tilt on the check cord. Most of the time, he will circle back to me and then stop. I know that whoa isn't frequently used to stop a dog when he's on a dead run, so I'm wondering: 1. if I should not worry so much about getting him to whoa while running; and 2. If that is important, how do I go about accomplishing it?

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AZ Brittany Guy
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Re: whoa on the run

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:46 pm

SCS method with whoa post transfered to ecollar with running dry in the field no check or draging a check cord at first.. a four week process with once a days, give or take a few weeks. :mrgreen:

I am sure their are other good ways, this is just one.

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4dabirds
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Re: whoa on the run

Post by 4dabirds » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:53 am

Each context you teach a command is new for the dog.transition slowly from walking along side you to stopping while you continue to walk . Have the dog stop on a place board . When the dog is stopping on the board with the cord and understands that put the board between you and the dog command whoa when he is close to the board . If the dog does not stop walk back and place the dog on the board. At this point you are teaching the dog what you want no need for any correction.once the dog is stopping on the board transition to the ground. You will need to generalize this at different locations before the dog will fully understand the command. If your dog will not whoa on a dead run it does not know the whoa command. This should be your level of expectation .transition to the ecollar once the dog is complying eight out of ten times.

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DogNewbie
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Re: whoa on the run

Post by DogNewbie » Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:15 am

I think whoa should be affective at stopping a dog that is at a full run. IMO that's kinda the main point of whoa. My expectations may be lower than others, but when my dog is at a full run and I whoa him I let him take a few steps to slow down and stop. He also always stops turned towards me which I'm fine with because it shows that he's watching me and waiting for my signal that he can continue on his way. How much is he circling back? I think 2 - 3 seconds is a realistic amount of time it should take a dog at full run to stop. If you want to get him to stop quicker I think you need to do more work with him walking out in front of you with the cc in your hand. Whoa him and make him stop. If he turns back to you and you don't want that walk up to him and reset him forward. It's just going to take repetition. Once he whoa's successfully in walking in front on cc I'd bring him back to heel and introduce the ecollar to the command.

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Re: whoa on the run

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:35 am

FWIW -

When a dog is at a dead run and I holler WHOA, it is becasue that dog is coming into a dangerous situation(like a road with a car coming) and it needs to stop ASAP or it might just get killed.

So, Yeah, I want the dog to stop from a dead run. Realistically a dog going flat out will take a few steps to stop without falling over. If it can stop on a dime, so to speak, it ain't running at full speed.

FWIW, I have actually seen dogs go from running flat out to a dead stop on a couple of occasions. The dog was running full bore and encountered bird scent each time I witnessed it. In each instance the dog locked up as it was starting to turn toward the bird scent. The dog's momentum carried it several feet beyond the scent and the claw(skid) marks in the dirt were pretty impressive.

RayG

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Brittguy
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Re: whoa on the run

Post by Brittguy » Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:56 pm

RayGubernat wrote:FWIW -

FWIW, I have actually seen dogs go from running flat out to a dead stop on a couple of occasions. The dog was running full bore and encountered bird scent each time I witnessed it. In each instance the dog locked up as it was starting to turn toward the bird scent. The dog's momentum carried it several feet beyond the scent and the claw(skid) marks in the dirt were pretty impressive.

RayG
Makes your heart skip a beat , moments to remember.

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Re: whoa on the run

Post by Wildweeds » Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:40 pm

I was handling my dog in one of the few stakes I ran him in,he was a little speck because he is a little dog but he did exactly what you've seen,skidded to a stop and the dustcloud flew up,I called point we rode about 250 yards to find the dog lying flat out like the little dog on the FDSB registration slip with a 12 oclock tail in the splits position, I pointed out to the judge and asked him to come over and look at the skidmarks that were close to 8 feet long,then I flushed the bird,fired the gun all in order,collected him up and sent him on his way for the last 5 minutes.The dog had two birds and a stop to flush,was judged by both judges and he got a fourth.Most people would have picked the dog up for the laying down,but most aren't astute enough to know their dog,can read their dog........... I let it roll,Had I not pointed out the skidmarks,and the quivering dog,Most would have yarded him up,Heck my scout wasn't even paying attention to what was going on.
RayGubernat wrote:
FWIW, I have actually seen dogs go from running flat out to a dead stop on a couple of occasions. The dog was running full bore and encountered bird scent each time I witnessed it. In each instance the dog locked up as it was starting to turn toward the bird scent. The dog's momentum carried it several feet beyond the scent and the claw(skid) marks in the dirt were pretty impressive.

RayG

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Re: whoa on the run

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:42 pm

Wildweeds wrote:I was handling my dog in one of the few stakes I ran him in,he was a little speck because he is a little dog but he did exactly what you've seen,skidded to a stop and the dustcloud flew up,I called point we rode about 250 yards to find the dog lying flat out like the little dog on the FDSB registration slip with a 12 oclock tail in the splits position, I pointed out to the judge and asked him to come over and look at the skidmarks that were close to 8 feet long,then I flushed the bird,fired the gun all in order,collected him up and sent him on his way for the last 5 minutes.The dog had two birds and a stop to flush,was judged by both judges and he got a fourth.Most people would have picked the dog up for the laying down,but most aren't astute enough to know their dog,can read their dog........... I let it roll,Had I not pointed out the skidmarks,and the quivering dog,Most would have yarded him up,Heck my scout wasn't even paying attention to what was going on.
RayGubernat wrote:
FWIW, I have actually seen dogs go from running flat out to a dead stop on a couple of occasions. The dog was running full bore and encountered bird scent each time I witnessed it. In each instance the dog locked up as it was starting to turn toward the bird scent. The dog's momentum carried it several feet beyond the scent and the claw(skid) marks in the dirt were pretty impressive.

RayG

Wildweeds -

Some might disagree, but what you described was a SUPERLATIVE piece of birdwork in my not necessarily humble opinion. I would have loved to see something like that under judgement. I can't speak to the rest of the performance, but a piece of birdwork like that is first place stuff.

RayG

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4dabirds
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Re: whoa on the run

Post by 4dabirds » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:31 am

I love that story. It is the reason we all love this game so much!

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Re: whoa on the run

Post by Higgins » Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:23 pm

Once our dogs understand that a flushing bird means "whoa" all I have to do is associate to other things. Those things can include a "whoa' command, a backing dog, a bucket, a piece of marking tape, etc. Gotta be careful what you're associating to. Dogs are learning if we're training or not.

Here is a video of some of the dogs that have associated the backing dog to a flushing bird. I don't use a "whoa" command. Not my job. :)

http://youtu.be/oqT0SX57pmA

Brad Higgins
http://www.HigginsGundogs.com

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birddogger
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Re: whoa on the run

Post by birddogger » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:07 pm

Good post Brad, but I think we are talking about an obedience command here and nothing to do with flushing birds or a backing dog. I honestly believe I saved a dog's life twice with the whoa command while he was running at full speed.

t-setter, I don't like to read or type long posts, so I am going to try to make my opinion brief. It sounds like you are using pretty much the same method that I use for the whoa command, but I am thinking that you have skipped some steps and/or stopped too soon. You say that he does fine while at your side. I don't want to get into a lot of details but once he is whoaing at your side, you need to start stepping away from him, very short distances at first, using a hand signal along with the command [holding your hand out in a stop sign signal] and setting him back when he moves [he won't understand why you are wanting to get away from him]. Once you can move away from him, keeping him in position, you can begin releasing him and stopping him as he comes to you, starting at short distances at first. Understand, you will be setting him back several times before he gets the idea and you gradually increase the distance until he stops on your command and hand signal. Then you start letting him free run and start whoaing him when he is fairly close to you, he probably won't stop so you repeat the command and set him back. You keep increasing the distance until he gets it. I always transition from the CC to the e-collar during the process. Right now, it sounds to me that he is associating the command with being near you, you have to fix that.

Good luck, it sounds like you are the biggest part of the way there,
Charlie
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gonehuntin'
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Re: whoa on the run

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:55 am

birddogger wrote:Good post Brad, but I think we are talking about an obedience command here and nothing to do with flushing birds or a backing dog. I honestly believe I saved a dog's life twice with the whoa command while he was running at full speed.

t-setter, I don't like to read or type long posts, so I am going to try to make my opinion brief. It sounds like you are using pretty much the same method that I use for the whoa command, but I am thinking that you have skipped some steps and/or stopped too soon. You say that he does fine while at your side. I don't want to get into a lot of details but once he is whoaing at your side, you need to start stepping away from him, very short distances at first, using a hand signal along with the command [holding your hand out in a stop sign signal] and setting him back when he moves [he won't understand why you are wanting to get away from him]. Once you can move away from him, keeping him in position, you can begin releasing him and stopping him as he comes to you, starting at short distances at first. Understand, you will be setting him back several times before he gets the idea and you gradually increase the distance until he stops on your command and hand signal. Then you start letting him free run and start whoaing him when he is fairly close to you, he probably won't stop so you repeat the command and set him back. You keep increasing the distance until he gets it. I always transition from the CC to the e-collar during the process. Right now, it sounds to me that he is associating the command with being near you, you have to fix that.

Great post Charlie. That's exactly the way I handle it.

Incidentally, I never expect a dog on a FULL RUN to come to a skidding stop on whoa. I just want them to stop. I see no value in a skidding stop. When they are at my side or close to me though, they better whoa when I say whoa.

Good luck, it sounds like you are the biggest part of the way there,
Charlie
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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t-setter
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Re: whoa on the run

Post by t-setter » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:50 pm

Thanks for the great tips. I am definitely making some progress with my dog on whoaing while moving. He's not perfectly reliable at it yet, but he's getting there. I think one of my biggest problems when trying to train a dog is that I expect to see results too quickly.

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Re: whoa on the run

Post by mountaindogs » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:17 pm

... things I do to get to a better whoa are run with the dog and then teach whoa. Then i also teach them to stop even if I keep walking. Then I teach them to stop if I keep running.

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