One thing at a time ?

[Trekmoor]

I discovered a few years ago that when clicker training a dog it was better to "click and treat" for one thing at a time. Like retrieve and sit present for example. I am assuming that this would also be true if I trained using an e-collar . Is this correct or is there some difference I haven't thought about ?

Bill T.

[Cajun Casey]

The chaining process is more defined in clicker training because you are trying to perfect each separate part of a sequence. When using correction based training, my experience is that the dog is allowed to proceed until correction is needed and then fine tuned within the sequence. IMO, that is why the two work so well together, since they are both in the positive spectrum. I don't do so well with the forced, "turn off" method, which falls in the negative punishment quardrant.

[marysburg]

Short answer here is yes. For the pointing dogs, I use 'tone' for recall, 'nick,nick' on low for turn with me, and 'continuous' on low for stop. For the retriever, I use 'tone' for recall, 'nick' for sit, and 'continuous' on low for forcing to pile or casting. All of the tasks are taught slowly and one at a time, with the ecollar cue overlaid on a verbal cue or checkcord cue in the yard, then taken to the field. I use the collar to cue the dog, not as a punitive thing. If the dog ignores a command which he understands, the intensity can always go up, just as we would do with a leash cue. Hope this is helpful to you.

[crackerd]

I discovered a few years ago that when clicker training a dog it was better to "click and treat" for one thing at a time. Like retrieve and sit present for example. I am assuming that this would also be true if I trained using an e-collar . Is this correct or is there some difference I haven't thought about ?

Bill, remember what I told your evil twin Wullie on the aulde cyber sod: Using the e-collar with indirect pressure, as retriever trainers do, everything revolves around the sit command. Making the crux of it "one thing at a time" (sit) in perpetuity for both correcting and teaching.

MG

[Trekmoor]

Thanks for the replies ..... the last thing I want to do is make an error while using an e-collar . I'm just not knowledgeable enough to be sure of sorting out my error.

Bill T.

[h&t]

Thanks for the replies ..... the last thing I want to do is make an error while using an e-collar . I'm just not knowledgeable enough to be sure of sorting out my error.

Bill T.

Bill, I am like you, I prefer examples to mumbo-jumbo conversations
If you have specific situation to sort out - just let us know.
BTW, there's whole series of videos from TriTronics on youtube.
Another thing to remember - there few different ways people use e-collars:
- brute force (shock the dog into whining)
- single command (I zap - you sit or I zap you stand)
- like a reminder, tap on a shoulder, long line ...
- ?

[EvanG]

I discovered a few years ago that when clicker training a dog it was better to "click and treat" for one thing at a time. Like retrieve and sit present for example. I am assuming that this would also be true if I trained using an e-collar . Is this correct or is there some difference I haven't thought about ?

Bill T.

Bill,

May I ask a couple questions of you? What breed of dog are you training? At what point are you in the process? What age is the dog? What will your primary use of the dog be?

EvanG

[Trekmoor]

Sorry I didn't reply to this earlier. I train just about any gundog breed , spaniels, Hunt -point - retrievers and labs etc.

In the past I have always done fine using the old fashioned method of running 'em down ! I've even went swimming a couple of times when dogs thought they could get away with non-compliance in the water or on the far side of a river. I just got out there beside the misbehaving dog as fast as I could run - or swim. Since I am now well and truly on the wrong side of sixty I am beginning find doing these things more than a little bit difficult.

For many years I was very anti e-collar but then about 10 years ago I saw a much more modern collar that could have it's nic levels adjusted. I was anti stupid, inconsiderate use of the collar and not against it's use by people who thought a bit before they pushed the button. I have done odd little bits of experimenting with the nic adjustable collar I bought and I like the results. I no longer need to run after dogs that can poke up a finger at my efforts to catch them.

So far I have taught stop to whistle by overlaying a very low level nic onto a previously taught sit to whistle done at close distances (no more than about 40 yards.) I was interested in teaching the recall to whistle using the same overlaying technique . I joined this forum mainly to learn proper use of the e-collar so I thought I'd better ask the people who know their subject what they thought of training two very different things ( sit and recall) at the same time using the collar.


Thanks again for the replies.

Bill T.

[h&t]

Bill, I'll give you my thoughts, but I hope others will chime in.

training two very different things ( sit and recall) at the same time using the collar

It's like any other training tool. I'd teach the dog one thing, then another. Then train and mix.
If e-c is used for one cue/behavior exclusively the dog equals e-c to that cue. Say one trains the dog to sit on e-c tap and it's practiced and perfected for a long time. It may be hard to train this dog to do a different behavior on e-c tap.

So say the dog knows sit and recall. I'd introduce the dog to the e-c as in Tri-Tronics video with 'here'.
You practice it for a while. Once the dog responds well to e-c tap. Move on to do the same thing with 'sit'.
The dog might run to you the first time you zap. The same they do when you start teaching remote sit/stop to whistle. I'd take it bake to where it was. Some people say keep the e-c on, while you correct the dog, so they don't get the idea they turn off the e-c by running to you or using any other escape behavior (e.g. sitting).

Hope this helps

[brad27]

So far I have taught stop to whistle by overlaying a very low level nic onto a previously taught sit to whistle done at close distances (no more than about 40 yards.) I was interested in teaching the recall to whistle using the same overlaying technique

Bill, what is your whistle command/cue for "sit" and what is you whistle command/cue for recall?

[Trekmoor]

My "sit" command is one blow on the whistle accompanied (to begin with) by an upraised palm of my hand. Recall is a fast repetition of two "pips" on the whistle with a visual cue of my body posture plus my hands once the dog is on it's way back. The visual cues sort of take over from the audible command of the whistle. My "turn" command as a dog is hunting is two "pips" and then the appropriate arm movement and/or slight turn of my body to get the dog to quarter out to my other side.

I've been taking gundog training classes for folk with all sorts of dogs for nearly 40 years now and it's funny how things change and yet remain the same ! If I tell folk how to do things in the "old-fashioned " ways , I get accused by some of being cruel to dogs. If, since learning how to use the clicker a few years ago, I try to even mention this kind of training , I hear mumbles in the background about me being a "fluffy !!!" Wonder what I'd be accused of if I told a class about e-collar work ? I'd probably get lynched !
I just like to learn all I can about training gundogs and I am willing to use any tool in the box ....... providing I know how to use it. With both clicker training and e-collar training I wish it had been possible for me to learn how to use them many years ago , I'd have been a better equipped trainer. It is very difficult to learn about either of these things here in Britain. People just shut their minds to them and most discussions about e-collar use on fora here very quickly descend into an all out internet fight.

Very few or maybe no pro-trainers here will even admit to having tried an e-collar and none I know of admit to owning one...... not publicly anyway !
Some very good trainers who genuinely never have used e-collars are among the worst for believing e-collars are cruel. They just do not understand that the collar does not have to be used in a cruel way.

Bill T.