Opinions on these 2 mistakes

[mountaindogs]

I want to thank you all for your thoughts. At the core of it the dog made mistakes, and how to solve this will probably be a combination of efforts. You have all made some very valid points in both directions and I appreciate your time. I am a bit sensitive for this game at times, being better with dogs than with people, but is not like me to be so outspoken about this. When you see a dog with such promise, it's hard not to put the dog FIRST. But there is the dog and handler team to consider, also, and I think that needs to be priority.
thanks

[Sharon]

He's a very lucky guy to have the breeder so involved. I think this is a common frustration when you sell a dog to someone, knowing they don't have the experience you'd like them to have.
I'd " Drill the dog who was steady to release on ALL, but that one right over his head, with extra tempting set ups." but knowing that his owner has trouble maintaining the dog's skills. No use lecturing the owner. You can't pour a quart into a pint.

This was too funny: " I have been hunting with this individual, and there is no mercy on the birds. O frequently, several times a hunt, has pretty badly shot up birds, before the dogs ever get there
So, given that this guy is going to have these recurrent shot up birds, I told him I would work the dog through the retrieve work with breasted out and mangled birds."

I have never heard of training for that problem ( hunter's problem).

Can you buy the dog back? Sounds like you would get a lot of pleasure from that dog in the next couple years.

[mountaindogs]

to be precise, I didn't actually breed him, but have raised him since a puppy just for the record and all

[bigsugar]

This is ole boy is more interested in killing birds then working a dog. That's the entire issue here.

[C.painter]

I am still tying to get my head around if the bird went back over the dogs head... And it jumped... How did he almost shoot he dog? Unless he shoots really low birds or birds close to his dog on a regular basis...or the dogs Michel Jordan... I am sure here is a way I guess.

[postoakshorthairs]

I am still tying to get my head around if the bird went back over the dogs head... And it jumped... How did he almost shoot he dog? Unless he shoots really low birds or birds close to his dog on a regular basis...or the dogs Michel Jordan... I am sure here is a way I guess.

He almost shot his dog because it jumped....that is scary to me! Because he's shooting them low and close is definitely contributing to the mangled birds...which is contributing to problem #1. Sounds to me like he could use a lesson in patience.

[AHGSP]

This is ole boy is more interested in killing birds then working a dog. That's the entire issue here.

X2
The problem isn't the dog, it's the owners need to kill, over his need to work his dog.
You could work the dog harder and tempt him six ways to Sunday breaking him, but this owner will ALWAYS be a risk to his dog and YOU can't fix that, only he can.

[gonehuntin']

The job was never finished on the dog and the owner took him before he was ready. The guy should give him back for you for more training until the munching is under better control. The steadiness issue may never be resolved. If the owner is more interested in shooting birds than maintaining training, he will NEVER own a trained dog.

It's also important to thoroughly school the owner in exactly HOW that dog was trained and WHY it was done.

[Ruffshooter]

The munching, I think you will get that fixed and retrain the owner.
The jumping: That dog showed it was going to jump so the owner was not paying attention to his dog to make sure it was working correctly as you trained it to be. If he had been watching he could have corrected the dog never raised his gun for the shot and the whole incident avoided AND corrected. IMO

[DonF]

Two worst people in the world to break a dog for are hunter's on their first broke dog and experienced field trialers. Hunter's are more worried about shooting a bird and old field trialer's think they could have trained it themselve's but just didn't have time. There for they think they know a little secret to make their dog better, they'll use it and screw up something you did. Then they blame it on you. The hunter only know's that he paid for a job to be done and it's not done! That he's the cause of it escapes him completely!

[crackerd]

mountaindogs, are you a pro or just kindly helping somebody out? If the former, you might want to do as GH advised and bring the dog back in for finishing the job. If the latter, you might want to help him out in person so he can see the errors of both his and the dog's ways.

Don's hit it pretty good above, though not to disparage field trialers (of any stripe), but transference of a dog from trainer to handler ain't the smoothest transition - especially if the handler (owner) hasn't a clue about working a gundog (or even a birddog). Ask GH how we find out this sort of "weekend" thing.

MG

[Cooper]

I am an experienced hunter, but a 3 yr amateur trainer learning together with my GSP of 3 yrs old. The one thing I learned pretty fast by others with experience and by my own mistakes is if you want to make progress and have a dog that will do what you want and be fun to hunt with, WE must have some PATIENCE and SELF CONTROL around birds ourselves. How can we expect the dog to be a gentleman around his birds if we are just going nuts blasting away at everything trying to fill the vest.

It is no secret that we shouldn't shoot a bird that was handled wrong, or do other things that tempt bad behavior....isn't that one of the cardinal rules everyone preaches over and over?....It is hard for some, but once you start hunting with a dog it isn't just about filling a vest anymore IF you want a nice dog to enjoy hunting with.

Maybe he could let the birds get a little further out before blasting away, so he doesnt tempt the dog into failure. If he doesnt get the bird, oh well you get to hunt longer to find another.

My opinion is the hunter needs to be directed and given some perameters to follow more than the dog at this point. You are so lucky, you get to be dog trainer and owners therapist and coach.....Good Luck

[bigsugar]

The job was never finished on the dog and the owner took him before he was ready. The guy should give him back for you for more training until the munching is under better control. The steadiness issue may never be resolved. If the owner is more interested in shooting birds than maintaining training, he will NEVER own a trained dog.

It's also important to thoroughly school the owner in exactly HOW that dog was trained and WHY it was done.

This mentality is why we don't breakdogs for anyone else. It's always the "trainers" fault no matter how big of a stooge the owner is. Most folks I know that train dogs tell me the worst part of breaking dogs for other people is the other people. Not the dogs.

[DonF]

The job was never finished on the dog and the owner took him before he was ready. The guy should give him back for you for more training until the munching is under better control. The steadiness issue may never be resolved. If the owner is more interested in shooting birds than maintaining training, he will NEVER own a trained dog.

It's also important to thoroughly school the owner in exactly HOW that dog was trained and WHY it was done.

This mentality is why we don't breakdogs for anyone else. It's always the "trainers" fault no matter how big of a stooge the owner is. Most folks I know that train dogs tell me the worst part of breaking dogs for other people is the other people. Not the dogs.

Boy ain't that the truth. I broke out a Btritt for a guy tears ago and the dog came out real nice. I ran her in the Nat Futurity earlier and she got a third. Really nice little dog! Got her finished and he took her hunting, didn't keep her broke. Then wanted to run Nstra with her, didn't keep her broke. Then he tried some AKC and you guessed it, didn't keep her broke. Maybe couldn't is a better work. We'd talked a good bit before all this started and I told him he'd haave to keep her there. After I found out what he was doing he told me she was smart enough to tell the difference between AKC, NSTRA and hunting. Couldn't convince him he was wrong. Really nice guy and a great little dog. Went thru this stuff a long time before he decided to keep her broke everywhere. But soon after that he decided he didn't want to trial her any more and just let her go.

I had another guy that brought a nice shorthaoir to work with, just wanted a hunting dog. When I got done I had the guy here two weekends in a row working with him. And we did video's for owners then that everything was explained and they were showed what we'd done with their dog. This guy get's it home and goes out to show off for a friend and disreguards everything we tried to teach him. The guy is embarrassed so he take's the friend to his house and show's the guy what the dog does. The dog in in the living room takinf commands froa me off the TV! The friend points it out to him. So he's back aand this time with the friend. Seem's the friend new something about training. Went thru everything again with him and the friend. Don't recall he ever was back after that. I think the friend had a pretty good grasp on the situation, thank God!

[birddogger]

Of course, it's common knowledge that the English Setter is by far the superior breed for gun dogs but they all have their place.Just like everyone who drives a truck can't have a Ford

Very well said!

Charlie

[AzDoggin]

This mentality is why we don't breakdogs for anyone else. It's always the "trainers" fault no matter how big of a stooge the owner is. Most folks I know that train dogs tell me the worst part of breaking dogs for other people is the other people. Not the dogs.

That would get old in a hurry. The dog wants to learn. The owner? Meh - just forks out some dough so he doesn't have to do the work.

We always said the same thing working in the schools. The students were fine - it was the parents we could do without.

[gonehuntin']

Always drove me INSANE that I could teach a dog, but not an owner. Every dog can read a trainer, but darn few people read a dog well.

[crackerd]

Hey Good Buddy, gimme a "read" on this one



(No audible necessary.)

MG

[gonehuntin']

Hey Good Buddy, gimme a "read" on this one



(No audible necessary.)

MG

Too easy. This is a highly intelligent dog with incredible fore site and taste. After all, he's a PACKER FAN!!