planting birds for puppy (need to reuse birds)

[Vaoutdoors42]

I have had a hard time trapping pigeons lately but managed to get two last nite. I have a 6 month old GSP who I would like to get on more birds. I want to plant the birds for him but I would like to reuse them for future training. I have 10 acres to plant birds on but it is very wooded and I have had pigeons in the past who just flew up to a tree (after being clipped). What methods are best to be able to plant birds so they can be reused. I saw a video of using a pvc pipe which was stuck in the ground which had a string tied to the top, the other end of the string was tied to the pigeons leg. I was going to try this.

Any other recommendations?

[postoakshorthairs]

I've used a weighted teather (length of a garden hose) tied to the pigeons leg to reduce their flight distance and make them easier to re-catch. I'm sure you're aware that the downside of this is it makes it easier for the pup to catch the birds also. Good luck.

[DonF]

I'm not much on teather's. Seen birds caught on wires and in trees with them. People that do use them swear by them. Dave Walker loved them but he teathered then to cardboard. He hated my traps! I don't really care for a pigeon pole either but in your case it might be best. I trained my first dog with just two pigeons while in Alaska. I pulled the flight feathers and check corded the dog in. You would have to check cord in on anything other than remote traps. If you can keep them both alive or catch some more, you need a loft. Once you get it going with a few pairs you'll never need pigeons again and they will come home with just a bit of help.

[Stoneface]

For my first dog I just used a good ol' fashion section of garden hose, but after that I went to just housing the birds and teaching them to recall.

Just a warning. I trained with a guy once who would run a real long piece of line from a weight - like a horse shoe or piece of metal - so the bird would fly a ways, hit the end of it, then settle back into the ground. The weight did move some, but not much. The warning is to be careful not to make whatever you use too heavy or fixed. After this guy used his birds a time or two their legs were no good. They were like pudding. Totally just jacked their legs up and broke them every way you could imagine.

[bwjohn]

i think it depends on where you are in training. You want the dog to see the bird fly away, for the most part, if it is teathered to the pvc then it never sees that. the pvc is for later when a dog is very close to broke and you want to really tempt him by keeping the bird there.

I think the cardboard works pretty good.

I would check into getting some homers. A lot of times you can get them for $10 or so and then you wouldn't have to worry about it. Then you have to have a coop and feed them. but if you only have a few birds it shouldn't be a big deal.

brandon

[rinker]

I use a pigeon pole like you are talking about. I push a piece of rebar in to the ground and then slide a piece of pvc pipe over the rebar. I don't remember the size of the rebar or pipe, but just go to the hardware store and find two pieces that fit. The piece of pvc pipe does two things, it gets the string up off of the ground so it will not tangle easily, and it acts as a shock absorber so the pigeon does not injure it's leg. This works best in ankle high grass, anything taller and your string will constantly tangle. I just slip a loop over the pigeon's leg and let it fly freely, it will fly a couple of circles and then land. I then check cord the dog in from the proper wind direction. It helps to have a second person to flush. I use this for two purposes, I use it to introduce puppies to birds, I just check cord them in and they can't do anything wrong, if they point, fine, if they don't point, fine. I am just exposing them to birds, scent, flushes etc... I use this pole again when I am steadying dogs to wing and shot. I check cord them in and let them establish point, I then flush the bird and fire, I then flush the bird several more times making the dog stand through all of this.

[AzDoggin]

After this guy used his birds a time or two their legs were no good. They were like pudding. Totally just jacked their legs up and broke them every way you could imagine.

Ah - now I see why they sell these: http://www.tbicatalog.com/TBICatalog2/b ... esses.html

[Cajun Casey]

After this guy used his birds a time or two their legs were no good. They were like pudding. Totally just jacked their legs up and broke them every way you could imagine.

Ah - now I see why they sell these: http://www.tbicatalog.com/TBICatalog2/b ... esses.html

You know, I've seen winglocked pigeons fly just fine afterwards. Never seen poling or carding a pigeon have an effect (unless the dog got one). Kind of have to wonder that there's always some horror story to go with anyone's suggestion of how to use training birds.....

[Stoneface]

Yeah, I've seen those harnesses around. I don't know, though, unless you train several dogs, why wouldn't you just plant the bird and flush them to home back to the coop? Maybe it's a nitch product.

[shags]

The pole works great for training, except if you're at the stage where the pup needs some full-tilt chasing. It works fine if the pup's on a cc. Couple things, though- you don't want more than a couple, maybe three, contacts with a bird on the pole in one training session; and adjust the length of the string so the pigeon doesn't wind up entagled in a tree branch.

If you can move your pole to different areas, your pup won't get sticky like he might if birdwork is in one little plot somewhere.

Good luck with your pup.

[Vaoutdoors42]

Puppy had bird intro early on but is now 6 months and I want to get him pointing and realizing he cant catch them. he has had live pigeon exposure (clipped wings) and some birds for retrieving (fresh killed ducks & frozen ducks) but nothing really planted for him to pull out the pointing.... I am new to training and today just purchased the DT bird launcher so will be using this for the first time hopefully next week..

I have been trying to get homers for a while and have a small pigeon coop to use ((see pic- really a chicken coop but it works). Do you think this could be coverted to a homing pen? If so, how would you suggest converting it? It will obviously need a door bob to allow birds to come in... How many homers would recommend keeping in it?

Product Dimensions: 28 x 42.5 x 39 inches

[bwjohn]

that could be changed over pretty easy.

put a door to get back in with a landing area on it. then make some small areas along the back wall for nesting and roosting. that is about it.

check craigs list and local papers for pigeons. You could also look up a pigeon racing group, I know there is a group in VA around richmond. I know that is a little drive for you, but not much.

Also, if you need help with your pup, I would recommend bruce shaffer, he is on the forum. Almost heaven gsp's, is his kennel. he is in wVA, but not to far for you to drive to get real good help. You could visit him once a month or something to make sure you are on the right path.

good luck with that cute little fellar,
brandon

[DonF]

The only pigeon poles I've seen were long fishing rod held up with a stake. Didn't need to worry about the bird hitting the end as the rod gave. The new traps you got, are they remote? Good to have a few manual one's but the remote is worth it's weight in gold.

[Vaoutdoors42]

yes, it is a remote trap....they arent cheap but I thought since I may be training alot by myself that it would be needed. Are there gradual steps when introducing dog to the launcher? Do I keep him on check cord and have him watch a few birds come out first...or dont let him even see it and just plant the first bird? Can a dog become wise that he looks for the black box instead of searching for birds....??

[Vaoutdoors42]

Also...after I work dog into the planted bird in the launcher..would it be ok to shoot the shotgun once the bird is "flushed"? FYI-The dog has done some formal gun conditioning (started on .22 blank, then .410 and we are now on the 12g). I would not kill the bird just shoot, as I believe the dog will not point right out of the gate...is this ok? I know when hunting, guys will not shoot the bird because this is a reward for a dog who does what he should, "point"...since Im dealing with a 6 month old pup would you advise on shooting? My thought process is I want to continue to ingrain that bang=bird...

Thanks,

[bwjohn]

I wouldn't let the dog get any closer to the trap than were it points. So, cc him towards the launcher, when he points, let slack go in the cc. When the dog starts to break point, pop the bird and restrain the dog from chasing with the cc. It is a bad situation to let a young dog get real close to a launcher, you might cause the dog to become scared of the launcher and you do not want that.


at this point I would not start firing a blank until, the dog is steady and holds point until you are able to walk in front of him and make the flush yourself. The gunfire is kinda like a reward for the dog standing there, like they are suppose to.

if you hide the launcher well, that should not be an issue.


brandon

[DonF]

I would not check cord him to the trap, I would have him drag the check mcord though. I have found the best way for me with the trap is to make it act like a wild bird contact. As pup shows it smells the bird, pop the bird, don't let him point it. Do that a few times and the pup will be snapping into a point. Do not say anything when that happens, not a word. First couple times don't let the pup get closer than about 20 yrs and pop the bird. Doesn't matter if it smells the bird or not, that'll get it used to the trap. Let the pup chase, it will probably come back to the trap to investigate it, most pup's do. Let it. If you have the pup coming in up wind of the trap and it gets within about 10 yds, pop the bird. Keep in mind that a wild bird will not allow a dog to do that, neither should you. Once you have the pup pointing, usually takes less than 5 birds, keep your mouth shut and try to walk around the pup and get to the bird. Keep your eye's on the pup all the time. When it see's you come around it will do one of a few things: it'll start to creep with you, glance at you with it's eyes or start to bunch itselt the go in. You see any of those things, pop the bird immediately. What you are doing with this whole thing is teaching the pup that it is it's movement that is causing the bird to leave. The pup will want to catch the bird but seeing it can't will stand and worry the situation. Always remember to keep your mouth shut and once the pup does it right, praise, even though it'll probably be chasing. Let the pup come back and investigate the trap all it wants. Fire a blank gun but only when you get to flush the bird. And don't make the pup stand there while you kick around trying to draw it in, you will!

This is a lot like training on wild birds except you know where the bird is and which way you have scent traveling and the most important thing, you control the bird! I have never failed to have a dog pointing in one session doing this, but one dog did take about eight birds. Most will start pointing with no more than four or five birds. Training the check cord with no knot in the end is to simply give you a longer reach to the pup. You are near the trap and the pup comes back, you do not have to get to the pup to get it in, just the check cord.

You said that the trap was very expensive and you right. But I also think it is the best investment you'll ever make to train a dog.

[h&t]

that post and thread helped me a lot
viewtopic.php?f=89&t=28781#p263773

I tried saving money on birds (no homers), so I tried everything
I even tied pigeons to a remote launcher. It worked pretty well, except for occasional plant tangling.
Tie to both legs, preferably with a harness to reduce stress. My pigeons were fine

[AzDoggin]

I would not check cord him to the trap, I would have him drag the check mcord though. I have found the best way for me with the trap is to make it act like a wild bird contact. As pup shows it smells the bird, pop the bird, don't let him point it. Do that a few times and the pup will be snapping into a point. Do not say anything when that happens, not a word. First couple times don't let the pup get closer than about 20 yrs and pop the bird. Doesn't matter if it smells the bird or not, that'll get it used to the trap. Let the pup chase, it will probably come back to the trap to investigate it, most pup's do. Let it. If you have the pup coming in up wind of the trap and it gets within about 10 yds, pop the bird. Keep in mind that a wild bird will not allow a dog to do that, neither should you. Once you have the pup pointing, usually takes less than 5 birds, keep your mouth shut and try to walk around the pup and get to the bird. Keep your eye's on the pup all the time. When it see's you come around it will do one of a few things: it'll start to creep with you, glance at you with it's eyes or start to bunch itselt the go in. You see any of those things, pop the bird immediately. What you are doing with this whole thing is teaching the pup that it is it's movement that is causing the bird to leave. The pup will want to catch the bird but seeing it can't will stand and worry the situation. Always remember to keep your mouth shut and once the pup does it right, praise, even though it'll probably be chasing. Let the pup come back and investigate the trap all it wants. Fire a blank gun but only when you get to flush the bird. And don't make the pup stand there while you kick around trying to draw it in, you will!

This is a lot like training on wild birds except you know where the bird is and which way you have scent traveling and the most important thing, you control the bird! I have never failed to have a dog pointing in one session doing this, but one dog did take about eight birds. Most will start pointing with no more than four or five birds. Training the check cord with no knot in the end is to simply give you a longer reach to the pup. You are near the trap and the pup comes back, you do not have to get to the pup to get it in, just the check cord.

You said that the trap was very expensive and you right. But I also think it is the best investment you'll ever make to train a dog.

Awesome write-up, Don. That's a keeper. Thanks for taking the time to write it up!

[DonF]

that post and thread helped me a lot
viewtopic.php?f=89&t=28781#p263773

I tried saving money on birds (no homers), so I tried everything
I even tied pigeons to a remote launcher. It worked pretty well, except for occasional plant tangling.
Tie to both legs, preferably with a harness to reduce stress. My pigeons were fine

I just went and read that thred. the guy is absolutely correct. And the question was asked, "what if the dog doesn't make the association and stop"? Bring me that dog and I'll have it pointing on it's own with less than ten birds, prrobably a lot less. That is the best method you'll ever use and it appears to me that a lot of people have not really tried it or have done it wrong. As that poster said, don't give the dog a chance to point first few time's and when it does point, it will do it faster than you can work the trap.

[bwjohn]

don,
at 6 mos, I would think this dog is past the chasing stage and you can work on the dog not chasing. that is my reasoning for cc the dog to the launcher. I agree if the dog starts to smell it, and you can tell that by knowing your dog, then you should pop the bird. He doesn't necessarily have to point the bird. that will help establish a point, but why can't you work on not chasing at this point as well?

brandon