I Don't Even Know Where To Start

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M1Tanker
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I Don't Even Know Where To Start

Post by M1Tanker » Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:59 am

The third dog in my string right now is a 2 1/2 year old (GSP).

I sent to a pro-trainer this past summer from May to August to finish up breaking him.

Here is where he was at when I dropped him off in May: Hard charging dog who works at about 60-80 out front and 60-80 to each side. Head up with a ton of point, steady to the flush but through the flush (i.e. going with the bird). He was conditioned to the collar on the flank and all whoa work had been done on the flank at age 1 1/2 to age 2.

While at the trainer, here is what I was told the program was: Transition the collar to the neck and condition him to "whoa" with collar on neck. Bird work was stop to flush using launchers on check cord, progressing to stop to flush off lead using launchers, to thrown birds off lead. Mixed in with the training was to be a few killed birds, including a couple scenarios where dog was to point birds and have them killed for him.

Here are a couple of problems that I know occurred while training: All of the launcher work was done in the same area (I equate this to a parlor trick as dogs get sticky when bird work is done in the same area all the time...sure they stand still if they anticipate the activity). When they went to thrown birds off lead, at least one bird was thrown right in front of the dog and caught. Lastly, during one point and kill drill, the dog nearly caught the bird when he was allowed to creep right up to it (penned chukars), and lastly during a point and kill drill, the dog caught a penned chukar that didn't fly but ran.

I was aware of all the multiple trapped birds and instructed that I wanted the dog broke. The dog was kept another two weeks and I was told the dog was ready. I was told that the dog was conditioned to the collar and if he goes with a bird to use continuous to stop him.

Upon getting possession of the dog back, I started running him in the woods on wild birds. The dog was hit or miss. The first bird contact was a woodcock that was pointed and knocked when the dog tried to get too close. I went to the collar and couldn't stop the dog. I got him and stood him back up at whoa at the point of infraction. The next two birds where bumped grouse with the same chase and same end result...no response to the collar and eventually having to get the dog, bring him back and stand him at the point of infraction. The last bird was a pointed woodcock and the dog was steady through the flush and firing of the blank gun.

The next time into the woods the dog had an uproductive and a bumped grouse. He went with the grouse, did not respond to the collar but stopped on his own after 20 yards.

I went back to yard work to make sure the dog clearly understands "whoa" and collar conditioning. I then went to launchers in the yard (hidden) with the dog on check-cord and worked up to dragging check cord. All times (twice during a 5 day period) the dog took did well.

Enter the first week of the grouse hunting season.

During the first day, his first bird contact was a bumped woodcock that he chased with no response to the collar. I picked him up and stood him at the point of infraction. The second bird was a pointed woodcock and I made sure to come wide to reduce any temptation to break. The minute he saw me...he took out the bird and chased. No response to the collar. I again picked him up and stood him at the point of infraction. The third bird was a pointed woodcock, he broke at the flush and stopped with the collar. The fourth bird was again a woodcock, pointed and dog was steady to the flush and I stopped the chase with the collar.

During the second time out, he pointed a grouse and bumped it when relocating. He didn't see it flush but he heard it. Then the creeping started. The rest of the run, he would point and when I got there, he would start creeping. At least four unproductives to finish the run, all of them with him creeping.

The third day out was a day that will be remembered for a long time. The result yet to be determined...either a good story or the day that I lost a good prodigy. He was running and I ran into a friend with his English Pointed. We decided to run together (probably a mistake given his current training progress, but they have to learn at some point). They worked really good together and the EP established point. My dog backed the point from about 20 yards and stood still as can be. The EP broke and knocked the birds, my dog stood still and a grouse flew right to him. He broke and caught it.

I pulled him from the woods the past week and decided to go back to the beginning. The first night he went on the barrel with a helper dancing a pigeon from 10-15 yards away. He didn't move his feet but his head and body went wherever the bird went. We did no more than four "flushes" and when the bird handler walked away the dog tucked his head low (he does this when he wants to avoid doing something) and after several mild attempts, I was able to get the head back up, posture him and we were done.

The next day was a run in the Township woods (no birds) and he handled well.

Last night we went back to the barrel and when the bird flusher simulated the "flush" (same distance...same everything), the dog wanted to break. Every time he tried to break off the barrel, set him back up, and every time I did, he buried his head and looked away from the bird. The third time, I called defeat and recognized we were not making progress, so we ended the exercise, went to the Township woods and let him have fun. He had an unproductive, I kept my mouth shut, and while swinging wide in front of him after about 30 seconds, he started hunting again...no bird.

So...here I am, not being able to sleep since 1:00 a.m. realizing that I have a problem of sorts that I cannot quite figure out.

The dog is not soft by any means, but he is showing signs in training that he doesn't want to play the game. The "head tuck" on the barrel, the stickiness while doing simple whoa walks in the yard, and the stickiness at other training locations, especially when dragging a cord (thus rendering any launcher work something I don't want to do).

Being this is only my 4th dog with 10 years of experience, I am now filled with self-doubt about what to do.

I can continue from the beginning on the barrel, or work launchers but there is the chance that pressure will bust a pipe and I will be left with an unpleasant dog no matter how soft I do the exercises, OR, I am left with running him in the woods and risk another caught young grouse, or employ the collar as told to do and end up with a dog that says "to heck with this." If I knew he couldn't catch a wild bird, I would just go to the woods hunting, keep my mouth shut, and go back to not killing anything not handled properly.

Don't get me wrong, the dog knows better. I hunt 40 days a year and passed up many a shot last year if the bird was bumped and not pointed. And, the dog will point all day long until I get to him...that is when the fun begins.

I think the problem is clearly caught birds, the creeping is a symptom of this, as well as not being broke steady through the flush.

But as I said, I now have my doubts about my ability, or even worse, what really went on all summer long. Hindsight is 20/20 and it was my call to turn the keys over to someone else...nothing I could do about that. In this economy, you have to work to pay the bills, but it was only the second time I consulted someone on a paying basis, as I thought my program worked pretty good for me...until my time to train evaporated.

Pride is a flower in the Devil's garden, therefore, I am asking for some advice, thoughts, etc...I don't want to ruin this dog. He has some of the best blood in him and if anything, that is going to be what saves us....but I am just lost on this one.

Dennis

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Re: I Don't Even Know Where To Start

Post by GUNDOGS » Sat Sep 24, 2011 3:42 am

Did you go to visit the dog and watch the trainer work him, show you his progress being made and give input or opinions on his training during the months he was there with the trainer or just leave him with the trainer and pick him up after the trainer said he was ready to go??..sorry i cant help you with the issues you are having as im too new to the game for that but i do think the trainer working the dog in the same area all the time is one of the issues for sure and the reason why i asked the question above is because it seems, although sometimes its not possible, that this is why its best to stay in touch (in person) with a trainer and see a dogs progression and know things are being done to the owners satisfaction and that the dogs getting worked enough not sitting in the kennel ect (not to say this is what happened in your case)..i would be interested in knowing the answer as i have a friend who is debating sending her dog away for 3 months soon to a trainer and she is on the fence about finding one closer she can visit in person or send him farther away where the trainer was recommended but she couldnt just go see the progress, thanks for the post i will be interested in the responses and hope it all works out for you seeing as im sure you spent quite a few bucks on this training only to do it over yourself...ruth
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Re: I Don't Even Know Where To Start

Post by gonehuntin' » Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:42 am

I posted this over on UJ, but I'm re-posting it here. There is more great upland dog training info on this board than any other. Hopefully, all the boys, Jonesy, Charlie, etc. will jump in on this one.



From UJ: It's very hard to make a diagnosis over the net without seeing the dog and studying his reactions, but here goes.

Everything in your post indicates that the problem is NOT in him catching birds, but in NOT being thoroughly trained on whoa and broken on the collar.

From the time they're pups, I let my pointing dogs retrieve live birds. They are all steady to wsf until I unbreak them, which I always do. So that, to me, has nothing to do with the problem. He's a bird dog and should catch birds. Sort of.

Problem is in the whoa work. When you tell that dog whoa, he should whoa anytime, anyplace, anywhere. He obviously does not, so this portion of his education is incomplete.

Next, he is not responding to the ecollar. That tells me he has not been correctly conditioned to it. When a dog is properly conditioned to the collar, in my opinion, he is fully obedience trained on it and ff'd with it. If you DO NOT ff a dog with the collar, he is NOT a collar dog.

Either there is a problem with your ecollar, or you are not setting the intensity high enough. If he won't stop on the set intensity, up it.

Let me know what you think. This could be an interesting thread.
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Re: I Don't Even Know Where To Start

Post by mudhunter » Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:22 am

gonehuntin' wrote:Either there is a problem with your ecollar, or you are not setting the intensity high enough. If he won't stop on the set intensity, up it.
That is my thought as well, Once the dog knows what to expect I leave me collar up all the way (I know some think that is horrible) but as long as the dog knows why he is shocked, and the timing is right, the collar on high is a lesson they tend to remember.

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Re: I Don't Even Know Where To Start

Post by M1Tanker » Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:27 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
Everything in your post indicates that the problem is NOT in him catching birds, but in NOT being thoroughly trained on whoa and broken on the collar.

Problem is in the whoa work. When you tell that dog whoa, he should whoa anytime, anyplace, anywhere. He obviously does not, so this portion of his education is incomplete.

Either there is a problem with your ecollar, or you are not setting the intensity high enough. If he won't stop on the set intensity, up it.
Agreed on not being whoa broke...a broke dog should be able to be stopped on a bird or anything "verbally" and he will hit the brakes and dig in verbally in any situation but with a bird.

No mechanical problem with the e-collar, TT Upland Special. In the yard and in the other training areas it is a 2, when wild birds are involved, it starts at 3 and moves up. When I get to 4 and higher I do not blast him with continuous. I do use the continuous button but go to a press (one-thousand one) release, and repeat, stepping up if necessary.

Now, therein could be my problem by not burying the continuous as needed, but he is still young and I would hate to rake him past 4 on that collar.

Ruth, I think the selecting a trainer and what to look for could be it's own thread, so let's see where this thread goes first.

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Re: I Don't Even Know Where To Start

Post by Vision » Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:56 am

Why not just keep doing what your doing in the field on wild birds and forget about the yard work, the pigeons, the launchers. 90% of the problems you are having are from catching pen raised birds, and learning that he can crowd pen raised birds. All this mechanical crap is no substitute for real conditions on real birds. It's unfortunate that a grouse committed suicide and flew right to your dog, up to that point you had a great piece of work to build on. I would keep hunting him and keep bringing him back when he breaks. Sooner or later he will understand. Patience, persistence and repetition on wild birds in hunting conditions will get you where you need to be.

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Re: I Don't Even Know Where To Start

Post by kninebirddog » Sat Sep 24, 2011 6:16 am

From what I am reading in the dogs mind your presence is a cue to take out the bird
and that the dog does not understand what the stimulation is for..

Go back start over ..recondition your dog and do not be in a rush to get the bird up in the air ..I watch so many people when their dog is on point want to get in there and flush the bird..I like to slowly work towards my dog stopping as I approach..slowing the process and the pressure my presence will cause.

AS for point of contact cues...I use the smith method So if I had a dog doing what yours is I would go back to the beginning and go back to the flank and recondition a new habit where they are consistent in the yard work then work stop to flushes when they no longer need to be cue to stop on wild flushes then I would bring the dog into the scent and when they crowd launch ..let them commit and then cue

here are Ricks Articles on teaching the flank and remember though this is called Whoa post it is not really about teaching Whoa as much it is teaching a point of contact that means to stop moving and be still
Whoa post 1 http://www.huntsmith.com/article.php?id=15
and part 2 http://www.huntsmith.com/article.php?id=16
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Re: I Don't Even Know Where To Start

Post by 4dabirds » Sat Sep 24, 2011 7:25 am

I see this in a different light first I would take into consideration that a change of venue is a different picture for the dog. The dog may not understand what is expected.so I agree with knife just a little different as to why.second understand that any correction given to the dog has to be perceived by the dog as significant relative to the dogs motivation. Since a dog is motivated to please itself and so far has shown that it is willing to take the hit it may be willing to take the limit of the collar if it has enough drive or shut down at his limit. Since the dog is motivated to please itself it has to be trained to perceive the action of staying steady is beneficial to the dog.I would start by going back to the barrel using a spike collar chained to the ground with a short chain. When the dog comes off the barrel to chase he will learn that it is not in his best interest to chase in this situation. The outcome is inevitable and the dog will quickly teach the dog this strategy can not work. This gives you a dog that will stay on the barrel to learn to see a bird fly away. With consistent repetition the dog will have this picture ingrained in his head. This should be done with no scent and should progress fr barrel to place board on the ground from yard to field to woods to get the dog to see multiple pictures to generalize the behavior. Once the dog is progressing you can transition to the ground. You will see the dogs progression with each step and get a sense when you no longer need the collar. As the dog gets steadier you will get an idea of when to add the scent Wichita will be a greater motivator for the dog to break. If the dog starts to break go back to no scent. Once the dog is steady do the same on ground with check cord eventually bringing dog crosswind to scent . This will help the dog to understand the expected behavior where his strategy is his own and not dictated by you. After enough consistent repetition the sight of the bird flying will be the reward for the dog but don't miss the opportunity to give encouragement every time the dog succeeds. A dog with great desire like yours will beat you every time if you think your going to fight his nature he is just better at it then we are .

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Re: I Don't Even Know Where To Start

Post by Ron R » Sat Sep 24, 2011 7:57 am

M1Tanker wrote:I sent to a pro-trainer this past summer from May to August to finish up breaking him.
What exactly was the trainer supposed to do because it sounds like the trainer had your dog for 3 or 4 months and did not accomplish anything. I'm just curious as to what "finish up breaking him" means to you. Sorry if I'm being too critical.

As far as your problem with the dog taking birds out and creeping. I would go back to the training field and set up some controlled situations. I would get somebody to help you and checkcord him into a launcher or wrapped pigeon. Once point is established I would say whoa and have the cc wrapped around my hand and have the other guy entice the dog to take a step by flushing hard and stomping. When the dog takes one step I would jerk him to his back and say whoa again. If the dog is laying on his stomach I would'nt touch him at this time just keep saying whoa and have your buddy flush easy and fly the bird and let him chase but if he steps again roll him again. He should start to get it and progress to running without a cc during the same scenarios and you won't need a partner. When you flush for him still flush hard tempting him to step and when he does pick him up by the tail and collar shake his head and knee him in the side a couple times while setting him back. You can also grab him by the collar and put a fleshing whip to his chest while setting him back. I would do this with 2 or 3 birds a day - 3 to 5 days a week.

I would also like to add that I believe that the dog knows what you want him to do and he also knows that there is not much your going to do about it if and when he don't. He does not seem to have a problem running through your little ecollar nicks.

I personally like a well trained broke dog not a collar wise dog and that is why I do hands on corrections when possible. I would not worry about transitioning the ecollar from the flank to the neck.

I hope this helps and makes sense. If it seems harsh is because it is, the dog needs to know that your serious when you say whoa and when he handles birds.

Good Luck
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Re: I Don't Even Know Where To Start

Post by volraider » Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:36 am

It sounds to me like your training program is a big cluster. You need to pick one method and follow it thru from beginning to end. Mixing and matching methods causes confusion and having 2 different people do 2 different things is also adding to the confusion. Go visit the trainer and see exactly how he did things. Sounds like the dog is really confused. OR Buy a book or a dvd and start over, act like the dog is a puppy and take one step at at time. Good Luck

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Re: I Don't Even Know Where To Start

Post by Cajun Casey » Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:39 am

The answer is four. As in, four years old. You have a late maturing dog. I would try to challenge him, wear him out physically running (this is where welding cables are handy) and go back to leash obedience with food rewards separate and apart from any yard or field work. Bond with him. Sounds like he needs a friend and to know for whom he is working.
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Re: I Don't Even Know Where To Start

Post by 4dabirds » Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:43 am

Just to clarify something I left out tie the dog to chain dogs feet hits barrel launch bird . The dog will perceive that his feet on barrel caused the bird to fly . In the dogs mind he is controlling the situation, being self motivated he will be happy to comply and no correction will be needed. When the dog is performing overlay the whoa command.

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Re: I Don't Even Know Where To Start

Post by M1Tanker » Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:29 pm

Had a long and honest conversation with the trainer today, who happens to be one of my best friends.

I appreciate all the advice received and I will be committing to what I have been told by him today as it is exactly the same as what was explained to me by another well respected trainer/breeder on this forum.

I will let you know how it turns out so that we can continue to share information with one another to help deal with things that can and will happen with dogs.

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Re: I Don't Even Know Where To Start

Post by M1Tanker » Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:41 pm

After all my worries, I took Panzer out today and he found 10 grouse in 2 hours. All birds he had contact with were pointed, including tracking a runner and setting himself 4 times before the bird flushed. He creeped on one bird at the end, it was one he could see under the dogwood bushes. He stayed on point until I got to him. I went right, the bird went left and he broke when the bird ran.

Pretty good day after what we had been through...despite the fact that after two shots and two birds yesterday, I couldn't hit squat today.

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Re: I Don't Even Know Where To Start

Post by bossman » Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:33 pm

I'm not one to be constantly visiting my dog's while they are at the trainers. But I am curious if you spent anytime with the trainer when you picked your dog up? Did he work the dog for you and show you how he had been handling the dog during training so there would be an easy transition to you handling the dog. Good luck. Your shooting will be better next time out.

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Re: I Don't Even Know Where To Start

Post by AG74 » Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:39 am

Cajun Casey wrote:The answer is four. As in, four years old. You have a late maturing dog. I would try to challenge him, wear him out physically running (this is where welding cables are handy) and go back to leash obedience with food rewards separate and apart from any yard or field work. Bond with him. Sounds like he needs a friend and to know for whom he is working.

Casey, just a question: how did you come up with the number four? The reason I ask, I have a friend who runs English pointers and Drathaars at his preserve, and he seems to think the DDs are later at maturing. I have a 13 m.o. GWP (genetically same as a DD) and it seems to me he is about on track (for my expectations at least) for a year old dog. Could you please expand on late maturing dogs for me, and the OP if he's interested???

Thanks!
Al

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