Gun Dog Forum

Well, I found a local trainer to get some advice from....but Im still needing some advice. The trainer has me working on retrieving with my pup by throwing a clipped wing pigeon and then getting him to fetch while also getting him conditioned to gun fire. I throw the bird, and as he is just about to get the bird I fire the gun. My pup does great fetching the birds...and handles the gunshot perfectly. He also has me working on whoa by using the "suitcase" handle. Again, my pup is doing a pretty good job. My concern is that he doesnt want me to work on steadying my pup on birds yet. I guess this brings me to my question.....Does the trainer have me doing things correctly....or should I be focusing on steadying him so he has some sort of intro before the season?

Also....my pup has this fascination with pointing shadows....how can I stop this without discouraging pointing??

Sounds like he's trying to build desire in your pup. Hard to tell without seeing but that would be my guess.

volraider wrote:Sounds like he's trying to build desire in your pup. Hard to tell without seeing but that would be my guess.

+1 and for the shadows just ignore him when he points things you dont want him to, if you ignore him and just go about your walk he will see you have no interest and he will stop, its just like dogs with tweetie birds, grass hoppers ect, if they point them and you just ignore them they soon learn that is not what you want from them and they move on ...ruth

there's no need to rush things. listen to your trainer.

Who did you get your dog from and what's the pedigree? Don't worry about it if he is the trainer that's going to break the dog later....

Sounds to me like your trainer is right on track using a methodical approach .when the dog is catching these pigeons he is making the association that the gunfire equals birds. This association with the dogs greatest motivator will ensure that the dog will associate the gun fire with a positive thing which is birds.

Thanks for the replies! I definitely see the purpose in what the trainer is having me do, and it is great to see the desire that my pup has and that he is associating the gunfire with the positive of the bird. I was just curious about whether I should be working on steadying him instead so he can be somewhat ready for wild birds.

ultracarry wrote:Who did you get your dog from and what's the pedigree? Don't worry about it if he is the trainer that's going to break the dog later....

I got him from a breeder in Montana. His pedigree includes NFC/FC/AFC Moesgaard's RB Rhythm 'N Blues NOGDC (Timmy), Dixieland's Rusty, and Premiers Fancy Trailblazer.

I don't understand who's the breeder, what's the pedigree. It really doen't make any difference. There a dogs in this world who aren't field champions or such that make great dogs for most people. One, it's a young dog that just needs to be a puppy and not a broke dog. People think it's like flowers, just add water and it's a champion. In some peoples eyes they are champions.

Blaaaaa

Who cares. The dog is used to gun fire and is 8 months old. Seeing the pedigree helps a lot in determining if you will look into field trials , hunt test or having a dog that will flat out hunt. Depending on how close the dog is bread to those specific dogs could say a lot. But yes some dogs can't be what they were not ment to be and others have the drive to overcome anything. The dog is 8 months old and learning every time the gun goes off it will get the bird is not teaching/helping it for the future breaking process.

If you plan on breaking the dog steady through the shot then I would not let it catch another bird. Retrieve with a bumper and don't worry, the dog is not gun shy.

Have fun with the puppy and BTW I asked because I liked the look and the dog is in pretty good shape.

Pedigrees have nothing to do with field trials. Nothing at all. It's what one does with dogs that's important to them. There are many dogs out there that come from good dogs that never trial, it doesn't make them any less worthless. There are many trainers out there that never train field trial dogs, more than what trials by far. So it doesn't make any difference what their back breeding has as long as they hunt for their owners. There's also alot of dogs bred by FC's and AFC's that have no champions any where in their backround. Some of the best bird dogs in our world or anyone else's have some champions somewhere, may be a long way back or maybe not. It seems people like telling someone that they some type of champion

shootfor25 wrote:Well, I found a local trainer to get some advice from....but Im still needing some advice. The trainer has me working on retrieving with my pup by throwing a clipped wing pigeon and then getting him to fetch while also getting him conditioned to gun fire. I throw the bird, and as he is just about to get the bird I fire the gun. My pup does great fetching the birds...and handles the gunshot perfectly. He also has me working on whoa by using the "suitcase" handle. Again, my pup is doing a pretty good job. My concern is that he doesnt want me to work on steadying my pup on birds yet. I guess this brings me to my question.....Does the trainer have me doing things correctly....or should I be focusing on steadying him so he has some sort of intro before the season?

Also....my pup has this fascination with pointing shadows....how can I stop this without discouraging pointing??

If you are just at the point of teaching the dog to whoa with the suitcase then the dog does not whoa. If the dog does not whoa then what command will you give the dog when it breaks on the bird. You need to take it one step at a time .

I was just curious about whether I should be working on steadying him instead so he can be somewhat ready for wild birds.

Again, don't put the cart before the horse. You will have MANY seasons to hunt over him.

Im trying not to rush things at all...but sometimes I get frustrated with the differing opinions people offer up. On one hand I have people telling me I'm not pushing my pup enough....and then I have people telling me I'm doing the right thing by taking it slow. Brad do you recommend hunting my dog a season and then work on steadying him?

the best thing you can do is listen and follow your trainer. if you cut and paste stuff from outside sources into the training you might disrupt the trainers program. there are many successful programs to train a pointing dog but the only work if you follow the program fully.

You should really listen to ken. I believe you will be doing yourself a disservice if you don't. I mean you are blessed to have him post on your topic. Basically by reading his post you can get great dogs by not breeding anything with a proven background and be just fine.

If you really want to break your dog and have it be easier on the dog then don't let him catch any more birds. GSP's can have a harder head then other breeds and take more pressure. See multiple trainers and ask them all what they think. If the dog is pointing birds then hunt with it for the first season before you break it. Grantee the dog doesn't catch a wild bird and don't shoot unless it was pointed.

Youreally should listen to ken. He's titled his dog on his own, no trainers, and has been breeding gsp's since the 70's. Just saying, first hand exp. is better than second hand.

Ahumphers91a wrote:Youreally should listen to ken. He's titled his dog on his own, no trainers, and has been breeding gsp's since the 70's. Just saying, first hand exp. is better than second hand.

I think if he is going to listen to anyone on a forum instead of listening to the trainer there is something really really wrong. I just can not find any excuse to have more faith in someone I have never met than the individual I hired to train me and my dog. You hired him for a reason and I hope it has something to do with how he does it and what he produces. That is the person I trusted my dog to and it sure better be the person you are going to let train your dog and not someone else.

Ezzy

Listen to you trainer, don't put too much pressure on your dog for his first season. With the experience of getting into as many wild birds as you can, the dog will actually start steading himself to wing, imo. Then get him ready for his second season next Spring and Summer and steady him to w & s if that is your goal. I am guessing your primary bird that you will be hunting will not be pheasants. Hope you and your dog have fun this season. ps. if the dog takes out the birds without standing, don't shoot.

Bossman....thanks for your insight....I appreciate it! My goal is not to pressure my dog too much.

Ezzy: Please don't assume I would take "forum" advice over a trainers advice. I was only seeking input from others in this forum with the hopes that people would inform me of how their trainer does things in comparison to mine. There is not a "bleep" thing wrong with me....nor is there anything wrong with seeking advice on a forum. I am just a newbie to gundogs and welcome any insight I can get.

Ahumphers91a wrote:Youreally should listen to ken. He's titled his dog on his own, no trainers, and has been breeding gsp's since the 70's. Just saying, first hand exp. is better than second hand.

Ken didn't give any advice.

No I didn't. Take your trainer's advice, he's got the first hand knowledge of what the dog is doing. He can read what's going on. Everyone else just can't see. Hope everything goes great.

kensfishing wrote:No I didn't. Take your trainer's advice, he's got the first hand knowledge of what the dog is doing. He can read what's going on. Everyone else just can't see. Hope everything goes great.

Thanks Ken. I kind of figured you would back up what I was saying. Just impossible to make much comment when you haven't seen the dog about training or health problems.

Ezzy

Just for the whoa with the Suit case handle. If your trainer believes in whoa work for the eventual steadying, the pup needs to understand the command or que before the birds are introduced. i.e. the pressure on the neck and flank for the correction and or the word whoa if he is using it. The pressure on neck and flank can be a conditioning for future work with the e collar, when the dog is loose and working without and eventually with no check cord.

Shadows, no problem, gives you something to laugh at until the pup gets more interested in other stuff.

+1 with the wild birds. If the dog is at the trainers, make sure he goes over the corrections and commands so you are on the same page with the trainer. When hunting you still may need to make corrections depending where the training is at.

Good luck.
Rick

I agree with listening to your trainer. I am not a fan of letting a pup catch live birds but there are different methods for training a bird dog and I have to assume he knows what he is doing, especially if he is going to train him from beginning to end.

Charlie

ezzy333 wrote:

kensfishing wrote:No I didn't. Take your trainer's advice, he's got the first hand knowledge of what the dog is doing. He can read what's going on. Everyone else just can't see. Hope everything goes great.

Thanks Ken. I kind of figured you would back up what I was saying. Just impossible to make much comment when you haven't seen the dog about training or health problems.

Ezzy

I really don't think high powered pedigrees make much difference in the average dog for the average hunter was my thoughts about the comments for a dog to trial or hunt test or any venue. I feel the average bred dog can compete with most dogs in a half hour stake if properly conditioned and trained. But pedigrees and breeding make all the difference in the world for hour and championship events. That I believe the hilt.

I meant listen to ken when he says pedigrees don't matter. He's titled dogs and gotten dogs close (as an amateur) . Ken has bred dogs for many many years, and yes take ur trainers advice. Not saying trainers are always right but pretty close most of the time

What is the breeding/pedigree of the dog? That is a very pertinent question.

What if the dog is out a 10 generation show kennel with no field titles what so ever in the last 10 generations. I would want to know that before I recommend any sort of training tips. Asking that question shows some wisdom in trying to establish an instinct level in the dog in question.

I would recommend you trust your instincts about steading the dog. I noticed that you live in Eastern Washington. Do you have access to wild birds? I would get the dog on wild birds and hunt the dog as much as you can on wild birds. The dog is used to gun fire now go hunting.

You can force fetch the dog later on if retrieving is a problem. Like a Brittany pro once said to me, "You can train a pig to retrieve".

There are so many people in this world who could care less about pedigrees, I do. With the newer computer internet sites and such who wouldn't research what is out there. But on the other hand there are many more who have the ideas that papers don't hunt and could care less. Of course you have the show people who try to put Dual titles on dogs. Not very sucessful at the rate you can put some sort of title on dogs that don't show. Of course on the other hand NFC Rawhide Clown had show points. Of course they tried to show Showtimes Rolling Thunder. ( Ricky ). They said he was had too much muscle. But people try to read what's not there in a statement. There are way more dogs that don't even get registered out of litters and after awhile people forget who and where they come from. Just my opions on pedigrees. That was the statement I was making when I wrote about the first comment.

I really do not understand the fascination with the pedigree of this 8 month old pup. The trainer doesn't seem to have any issues with the dog. He seems to like birds and handles the gun well. Now it's an issue of getting the dog into wild birds and letting him have some fun the first season, seeing if he will stand on his own after busting a few birds. The time of concentrating on the pedigree, imo, was at the time of the purchase of the pup to see what type of "stock" he came from. The owner hasn't indicated he has any intent to trial. So let's hope both he and the owner enjoy the season and the owner can make a determination on the pups future training after the season. All jmo.