kick cages

[dualsetters]

hey all! anybody ever train with this style launch method? the reason i ask is i would only be able to buy one electronic releaser, where i know more than one is really needed. lcs has these cages 3 for 50.any advice is needed thanks.

[4dabirds]

ELectric launchers allow to to control the situation better if the dog is not steady you need someone with you to release the birds while you control the dog use a scent bird with auto launcher so the dog does not get too close then use cages to back up the electric launcher to keep the dog expecting another bird the more launchers you have the more you can vary the scenario and it saves time on set up

[Dashin Gun Dogs]

People have been breaking/training dogs for years without launchers. For the average hunter that gets to wild bird hunt, the launchers aren't worth the investment. Trainers use them quite often and numerous times, and the investment pays off because we can train things quicker. If you are an avid wild bird hunter and have access to wild birds prior to season, then I would green break the dog and let them learn to point on their own. Launchers are a replacement for wild birds, but they still dont come close to the real thing.

[mudhunter]

I will also add if you have access to a helper when you train the launcher really isn't all that useful. I bought one and sold it because it was just collecting dust, The only times I wish I had it still is when Im training alone.

[Ahumphers91a]

I'm thinking of getting one (kick cage) because I will have someone to help with the popping of the cage and the shooting while I devote 100% of my efforts to steadying and stroking the dog while he is on point. Its always better if you have another person to help because of the fact. Even with a launcher you still have to remove you hand from the dog while styling and such to launch the bird. Just my thoughts.

[RayGubernat]

A remote launcher is extremely useful for steadying a dog to wing and or wing and shot, especially as noted above, if you are training alone.

One remote launcher is sufficient although two or more are definitely useful... Kick or step on cages can allow the trainer to have the best of both worlds for a lot less money.

As far as kick cages go, you can make your own. Paul Long described a sled type cage that you can cobble together in a very short time for next to nothing. They work fine. LCS also sells a metal step on cage that works well. Just remember to tie a length of ribbon on it or you will play he!! finding the OD green cage in the weeds. I did.

If you only have one remote launcher, you can put manuals or kick cages downwind of the launcher. When the dog approaches the remote laundcher on the checkcord, if it does not point at first scent you can launch the bird remotely. If the dog does stop at first scent, you can tie the checkcord off to a nearby fencepost or tree( remember to consider this when setting up your launcher) and then go in and flush one of the kick cages first. If the dog breaks or moves, you can still pop the remote launcher.

Alternatively, you can carry a bag of pigeons and when going in to "flush" you can slip one out of the bag and let it go where the dog cannot see that you are releasing the bird.

I actually prefer this, especially when first working with a green recruit, because it allows me to vary the place I let a bird go from and it also avoids potential problems that can occur if the dog ends up pointing one of the kick cages instead of the remote launcher.

BTW, if you do not have a tree or fencepost handy, there is a device that you can step into the ground and tie off the chekccord. I have one. Be warned. If you do not step the spike well into the ground, and depending on the amount of strength in the dog...even if you do...if the dog decides to go for the bird, a pound and a half of steel spike with a couple of points on it will come whizzing through the air, generally about belt high as the dog beats feet after the bird. That can really smart. That is why I like fenceposts or small trees.

Wild birds have their place, but their place is not, in my opinion, when first steadying a dog. You cannot control where a wild bird is, you cannot control what a wild bird will do. When you are first staunching or steadying a dog, control of all of the variables is preferable. If you are doing an initial steadyness drill with a youngster and the birds run out from under the dog's point or flush wild before you can get in front of the dog,( both of which are actually quite likely), you have a potential mess on your hands. Remote launchers and a carefully palnned, carefully situated and carefully orchestrated controlled situation minimizes the possibility of these kinds of scenarios.

Early on to build desire and teach the dog where to hunt wild birds are the best. When a dog starts to stop and point wild birds, you know they are ready for the next step, which is taking away the chase and training, with pressure utnil the dog is staunch or steady. Later on, when the dog is somewhat steady, wild birds can be invaluable once again inteaching the dog what it can, and cannot get away with. If, as in many if not most parts of the country, there is an insufficient supply of wild birds for you to train on, this are moot points.

However, during the steadying process, things will go much more smoothly for the novice trainer if pigeons or good flying planted birds are used in conjunction with remote launchers.

The reason why just about every pro trainer uses remote launchers is because they work the best for the job.

RayG

[brad27]

instead of using a kick cage, couldn't you just "sleep" the bird?

[RayGubernat]

instead of using a kick cage, couldn't you just "sleep" the bird?

That, IMO, is a very bad idea with a young dog that is just being steadied.

Waaay too much chance of the dog pouncing on the dizzied bird. THAT can set you back...big time.

RayG

[Chukar12]

by RayGubernat

[quoteWild birds have their place, but their place is not, in my opinion, when first steadying a dog. You cannot control where a wild bird is, you cannot control what a wild bird will do. When you are first staunching or steadying a dog, control of all of the variables is preferable. If you are doing an initial steadyness drill with a youngster and the birds run out from under the dog's point or flush wild before you can get in front of the dog,( both of which are actually quite likely), you have a potential mess on your hands. Remote launchers and a carefully palnned, carefully situated and carefully orchestrated controlled situation minimizes the possibility of these kinds of scenarios.

Early on to build desire and teach the dog where to hunt wild birds are the best. When a dog starts to stop and point wild birds, you know they are ready for the next step, which is taking away the chase and training, with pressure utnil the dog is staunch or steady. Later on, when the dog is somewhat steady, wild birds can be invaluable once again inteaching the dog what it can, and cannot get away with.][/quote]

Save these two paragraphs Ray, they should be captured again and again for folks...they just reminded me of some things.

[ckirsch]

Great posts Ray! You have a talent in being able to clearly and concisely convey your training methods, which seem to be very well thought-out. I always find your posts to be worthwhile reading. Keep em' coming.....

[brad27]

instead of using a kick cage, couldn't you just "sleep" the bird?

That, IMO, is a very bad idea with a young dog that is just being steadied.

Waaay too much chance of the dog pouncing on the dizzied bird. THAT can set you back...big time.

RayG

Ray, i was thinking about a dog that is staunch enough for you to walk in front of it to flush the bird. would you use a kick cage with a dog that wouldn't let you flush the bird?

edit: assuming you were working by yourself.

[RayGubernat]

instead of using a kick cage, couldn't you just "sleep" the bird?

That, IMO, is a very bad idea with a young dog that is just being steadied.

Waaay too much chance of the dog pouncing on the dizzied bird. THAT can set you back...big time.

RayG

Ray, i was thinking about a dog that is staunch enough for you to walk in front of it to flush the bird. would you use a kick cage with a dog that wouldn't let you flush the bird?

edit: assuming you were working by yourself.

If the dog is staunch enough for me to get in front of it, most anything will work, because I got hold of the end of the checkcord and I am in front of the dog so it has to go by me or over me...and that ain't happenin'. In such a case, a kick cage or a dizzied planted bird is just fine. My concern with dizzied birds is that an unsteady or barley steady dog might take a step, and then another step and them be on top of the bird before the trainer can react. It might not happen with the first planted bird or the second, but sooner or later with hard planted birds and marginally steady dogs, you are gonna have an issue. You can take that one to the bank. A bird in a kick cage or manual trap is a bit better because the dog has to knock over the cage to get to the bird and that might give the trainer the second or two it will take to get control of the situation.

I had one dive into a manual trap once. It wasn't pretty. It actually turned out all right because the dog was a tough, hard driving SOB. He got religion though. He would try to cheat and sneak on a bird that was planted, but he stood off those traps and did not challenge them after getting smacked in the face. That was a long time ago and the dogs of today are a whole lot softer. I don't think it would turn out quite so well if that happened today.

I hate backward steps when dog training.

RayG

[dualsetters]

just recieved the cages.they seem like a cool invention . birds are placed in at home then locked down with a spring that you unhook to release the bird.they come with a 20' cord so you dont have to go right to them to free bird.i am thinking a basic type of higgins releaser which will help the bird be more natural not dizzied.can't wait to begin this part of training.thanks for all the posts.matt

[birddogger]

was a long time ago and the dogs of today are a whole lot softer. I don't think it would turn out quite so well if that happened today.

They are?? I wish mine understood that!

Charlie