Backing and Honoring for Pointing Dogs

jbogacki76 · Post by **jbogacki76** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:12 am

I just wanted to get some different views on training Honoring . I have seen some methods trained and they work well - but I'm also interested in hearing how others train this and the steps they take to get this accomplished. Thanks, Joey

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:14 pm

A checkcord, a brushpile, and a wooden dog. I think his name is Whitey.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:39 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:A checkcord, a brushpile, and a wooden dog. I think his name is Whitey.

That is one way and a good one. I do that and I also try to mix it up. I often try to "surprise'" the dogs. I often do a backing drill with a wooden silhouette while roading dogs. I will position the silhouette where the dog(s) will come on it suddenly, like as they round a corner or clear a strip of high grass. I will most often pair the dog I am trying to train with a veteran that knows how to back. It is pretty funny actually to see a youngster trying to drag one or two other dogs that are locked up. They get the idea rather quickly it seems, especially when I go, pick them up and put them behind the dog that backed first.

I will also let loose a veteran and let that dog establsish point. I am quite fortunate in that I do have a couple of dogs that are honest and pretty bombproof. I will then take the student, attached to a checkcord, and bring it into the pointng dog. If the student is advanced and I am polishing or proofing, I will let the trainee run free, with an E-collar on and watch from a convenient vantage point.

One other thing I will do, depending on the dog, is "stop to flush' drills usually with pigeons in launchers. I have found that dogs that will stand to watch a pigeon fly away, and still stand when the pigeon makes a second pass around, will be very likely to back if given the opportunity. The dogs that will chase... I bring them in on a checkcord and I am ready....

RayG

CHJIII · Post by **CHJIII** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:40 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:A checkcord, a brushpile, and a wooden dog. I think his name is Whitey.

I've seen a white cooler lid used..................with the same results

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:43 pm

jbogacki76 wrote:I just wanted to get some different views on training Honoring . I have seen some methods trained and they work well - but I'm also interested in hearing how others train this and the steps they take to get this accomplished. Thanks, Joey

I didn't have a wooden dog /remote and the one I made looked more like a fox.
What worked well was having a dog staunch on a bird , just over the top of a hill/knoll and bringing the second dog on a CC up over the hill. Soon as he saw the other dog , he pointed staunchly. Only took a couple times for this to become habit. I might have been lucky.

I was told ( might not be true), that in trials as there are no points for an honoring situation and only the chance of a dog breaking so you should avoid them if at all possible.

Brittanies give my dog a challenge as he can't see an erect tail so sometimes questions whether they are on point.

I had a dog who would steal another dog's point. I would pick him up and put down where he should be. Said nothing. This worked fine,

Birddog 307 · Post by **Birddog 307** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:13 pm

Teach stop to flush first and backing will be taught very easy , After your dog stops to flush you can use a broke dog and launchers. Let a broke dog go point a pigeon in launcher preferably over a rise let the backing dog come up on it and as soon as the backing dog sees the one pointing launch the bird. If he has learned stop to flush he will stop. It takes just a few times of this drill and he will be backing.
Birddog 307

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:30 pm

CHJIII wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:A checkcord, a brushpile, and a wooden dog. I think his name is Whitey.
I've seen a white cooler lid used..................with the same results

Two's Uncle Rocket will back a white pickle bucket. Deacon will, too, but only for a second. Then, he realizes what he's done, gets embarassed and hikes on it.

SetterNut · Post by **SetterNut** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:09 pm

Birddog 307 wrote:Teach stop to flush first and backing will be taught very easy , After your dog stops to flush you can use a broke dog and launchers. Let a broke dog go point a pigeon in launcher preferably over a rise let the backing dog come up on it and as soon as the backing dog sees the one pointing launch the bird. If he has learned stop to flush he will stop. It takes just a few times of this drill and he will be backing.
Birddog 307

I agree, that is an easy way to teach it.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:51 pm

I guess I have been fortunate in that most of the dogs I have had, have pretty much been natural backers. The ones that don't stop immediately, I use the whoa command and they get the point. [no pun intended]. I have an older dog that backs but doesn't like to and will creep up if I don't whoa him, so there are better methods. I think the best bet for dogs that do not back at all is to work with a dog that is steady and using launchers. Whoa the backing dog, launch and shoot the bird. Have your partner keep the pointing dog steady [it is necessary to have a partner] and let the backing dog retrieve the bird, i.e. reward for backing. I know it is not as easy as it sounds, as most things seldom are and a lot of people don't have access to a partner with a steady dog. If not, use a silhouette and a helper, with the same scenario. I believe a dog with no instinct to honor needs a reason to do so, i.e. reward. I am not an expert or pro trainer, although I am thinking about doing it on a small time basis when I retire, so take it FWIW.

Charlie

Scott Linden · Post by **Scott Linden** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:18 pm

Two's Uncle Rocket will back a white pickle bucket. Deacon will, too, but only for a second. Then, he realizes what he's done, gets embarassed and hikes on it.

[/quote]

Which works better: dill or sweet?

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:20 pm

Scott Linden wrote:Two's Uncle Rocket will back a white pickle bucket. Deacon will, too, but only for a second. Then, he realizes what he's done, gets embarassed and hikes on it.

Which works better: dill or sweet?[/quote]

Bread 'n' butter!

Onk · Post by **Onk** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:04 pm

Have not worked on this yet but am going to try Perfection Kennels method in their Perfect Start dvd! Looks like something I can do and they promise it will work!

nooblet · Post by **nooblet** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:38 am

+1 with Cajun. Once you have the dog stop-to-flush broke, it's simple association. Pointing dog = bird = stop.

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:37 am

birddogger wrote:I guess I have been fortunate in that most of the dogs I have had, have pretty much been natural backers. The ones that don't stop immediately, I use the whoa command and they get the point. [no pun intended]. I have an older dog that backs but doesn't like to and will creep up if I don't whoa him, so there are better methods. I think the best bet for dogs that do not back at all is to work with a dog that is steady and using launchers. Whoa the backing dog, launch and shoot the bird. Have your partner keep the pointing dog steady [it is necessary to have a partner] and let the backing dog retrieve the bird, i.e. reward for backing. I know it is not as easy as it sounds, as most things seldom are and a lot of people don't have access to a partner with a steady dog. If not, use a silhouette and a helper, with the same scenario. I believe a dog with no instinct to honor needs a reason to do so, i.e. reward. I am not an expert or pro trainer, although I am thinking about doing it on a small time basis when I retire, so take it FWIW.

Charlie

How do you get the idea of letting the backing dog retrieve? He didn't point the bird. Backing is not a reward but almost a command. If they don't back we work on til they get it. And whoa is the best way to get a dog to back another.

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:39 am

Sharon wrote:
jbogacki76 wrote:I just wanted to get some different views on training Honoring . I have seen some methods trained and they work well - but I'm also interested in hearing how others train this and the steps they take to get this accomplished. Thanks, Joey
I didn't have a wooden dog /remote and the one I made looked more like a fox.
What worked well was having a dog staunch on a bird , just over the top of a hill/knoll and bringing the second dog on a CC up over the hill. Soon as he saw the other dog , he pointed staunchly. Only took a couple times for this to become habit. I might have been lucky.

I was told ( might not be true), that in trials as there are no points for an honoring situation and only the chance of a dog breaking so you should avoid them if at all possible.

Brittanies give my dog a challenge as he can't see an erect tail so sometimes questions whether they are on point.

I had a dog who would steal another dog's point. I would pick him up and put down where he should be. Said nothing. This worked fine,

There are no points for backing in a trial, but is a dog blinks another dog while on point, he's gone. It's really hard to pull a dog off of a dog on point.

Birddog 307 · Post by **Birddog 307** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:03 am

Dogs should back with out having to say whoa in the field. I want dogs that are honest and if they are 500yds away over a hill and come on one of the other dogs on point they must back and stay there till I show up. It always seems to me if I have a dog on point my other dogs have found the pointing dog before I do. The idea letting the backing dog retieve really helps steady the pointing dog also. I usually take turns letting the pointing dog or the backing dog retrieve.

Birddog 307

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:04 am

I agree, but they have to be taught or have it natually. I can usually tell when I walk up on dogs if one stole point.

Birddog 307 · Post by **Birddog 307** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:27 pm

I teach it by not saying a thing. I launch the bird as soon as I know the backing dog sees the pointing dog. I want the dogs to learn without any verbal commands. This is whether or not they back naturally.
Birddog 307

nooblet · Post by **nooblet** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:41 pm

I agree with birddog. No need for verbak commands. The dog should learn without commands - association of the flying bird is enough.

I also think the backing dog deserves a retrieve from time to time too. It serves two purposes (1) it allows them to get what they are out there for...a bird in thier mouth, and (2) it keeps the front dog honest. You dont get to make every retrieve.

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:57 pm

Tell you what. At a trial and you're riding to the front and you see the other dog on point and you know your dog can't see what's happening, whoa means either getting it right or your out.

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:07 pm

Besides I'm teaching two commands at once.

Maurice · Post by **Maurice** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:59 pm

Birddog 307 wrote:I teach it by not saying a thing. I launch the bird as soon as I know the backing dog sees the pointing dog. I want the dogs to learn without any verbal commands. This is whether or not they back naturally.
Birddog 307

I'm in Birddog 307 camp. I don't use whoa.

Mo

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:05 pm

Another +1 for birddog307's explanation. Stop to flush from the beginning is the way to go.

See Ruth no squirt bottle

nooblet · Post by **nooblet** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:05 pm

I dont look at it from a standpoint of trials. Honestly, i dont give two cents about trials. It's hunting. i can't whoa from 200 yards. I'd sound like foghorn leghorn out there "WHOA I SAY, WHOA!" It would take away from the whole experience. I think the only word I use is fetch (other than good girl etc.).

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:15 pm

Trials are just one example. You're teaching a dog to do something. I hunt just a much as anyone on here if not more than most. We train several dogs at one time. It works. You have your way and we have ours. Ours works.

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:45 pm

nooblet wrote:I dont look at it from a standpoint of trials. Honestly, i dont give two cents about trials. It's hunting. i can't whoa from 200 yards. I'd sound like foghorn leghorn out there "WHOA I SAY, WHOA!" It would take away from the whole experience. I think the only word I use is fetch (other than good girl etc.).

too funny..

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:05 pm

If you haven't taught whoa, how do you stop a dog after you lauch the bird? Whoa is taught and everything elso falls into place. You can control every motion a dog makes. Teach whoa and you can stop him into backing and stop to flush. Think about it.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:34 pm

kensfishing wrote:If you haven't taught whoa, how do you stop a dog after you lauch the bird? Whoa is taught and everything elso falls into place. You can control every motion a dog makes. Teach whoa and you can stop him into backing and stop to flush. Think about it.

the cue to stop doesn't have to be an audible one..........
same principal though.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:38 pm

kensfishing wrote:If you haven't taught whoa, how do you stop a dog after you lauch the bird? Whoa is taught and everything elso falls into place. You can control every motion a dog makes. Teach whoa and you can stop him into backing and stop to flush. Think about it.

I allow the bird to teach the dog to stop, I use slight collar pressure, no words.....to the dog the bird is whoa'ing him. There is no reward in chasing.

I do not use whoa on birds or on backing. As said before if you have to whoa the dog on birds or backing, he probably is gonna cheat if your not right there.

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:44 pm

For a young dog we teach whoa to control evrything. In a trial or hunting very little is said. Except for singing to the dog.

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:00 pm

Jbogacki76, I see you are from Illinois, at the end of the month, up at Ezzy the moderator we are gonna have a training day in upper illinois, You can contact him, and he will pass on any directions, or whatever you'd need. It is saturday July 30. There are gonna be several board members, along with anyone who else that shows. Come on up, and I will will demonstrate a real simple way to do things, without talking and telling the dog to do things.
There is a huge difference when you do things and allow the dog to do it naturally, without the mouth.....the good thing is, that in time, you will trust him, or you will be allowed to trust him, if you allow him to learn with the teaching you do. He will do it naturally without being told to, if you spend the time allowing it to learn on its table. The door is open, hollar at ezzy, and get the details, be a good time.

Mo, Birddog307 good posts, agree 100%
Thanks Jonesy

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:56 pm

birddog1968 wrote:Another +1 for birddog307's explanation. Stop to flush from the beginning is the way to go.

See Ruth no squirt bottle

aw man, just when i thought i had you pegged you go and prove me wrong

....ruth

Birddog 307 · Post by **Birddog 307** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:05 pm

By the way I do teach whoa and I do have to verbally use it once in awhile. But here are some of my instances: Car coming when roading or hunting close to a road, dog pointed a skunk or porky or raccoon and I wanted to shoot the varmit. I use it like any command and my dog must obey. My dogs must and do back as I hunt multiple dogs all the time and I try to be quiet as I can when hunting. One thing about dogs though is there is alot of ways to train a dog and end up with the same result.
Birddog 307

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:24 pm

What's the point of have a backing dog retrieve? None. The dog that finds birds is the dog that gets the reward. He found it. it's his if it's shot. Dogs are very competetive by nature. If I don't have a dog out front finding birds for me, he isn't worth his salt. I don't care if it hunting or trialing. I also hunt with multible dogs on the ground at one time. Don't say much too them most of the time, expect training. As so called dog trainers who make a living training dogs or putting on clinics, they all have ringers. Watched it too many times across the country. Of course some breeds you can't say anything to. They shut down and are not bold enought. I've seen their methods of training first hand. What they fail to show you is the real way they train. Smoke and mirrors. Of course they are sell people, trying to sell you something you don't need. I've had the privledge to see some of the so called best pro trainers and you'd be suprised what goes on.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:53 pm

What's the point of having Labs or spaniels on the truck or wagon? Hunting isn't a field trial. You send the best dog for the job. If you don't want the point dog retrieving, and you don't have a pick up dog, then why not send the backing dog if it's okay for him to retrieve?

SetterNut · Post by **SetterNut** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:49 pm

Birddog 307 wrote:By the way I do teach whoa and I do have to verbally use it once in awhile. But here are some of my instances: Car coming when roading or hunting close to a road, dog pointed a skunk or porky or raccoon and I wanted to shoot the varmit. I use it like any command and my dog must obey. My dogs must and do back as I hunt multiple dogs all the time and I try to be quiet as I can when hunting. One thing about dogs though is there is alot of ways to train a dog and end up with the same result.
Birddog 307

Birddog, we seem to be from the same school. Simple, straight forward and effective method. (others work too)
Whoa is really not used around birds, they need to do it without a verbal command, you are not always going to be there.

But I have used Whoa when he is approaching danger.

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:43 am

Steve sorta agree, but if the dog can hear the word "whoa" why cant he hear the "here", and you walk him away from the danger.......or do they listen, and pay attention to it, like the word whoa? [BG] Why use the words in training, and not use it in the real deal, that is a rule change, that changes the situation. Right?

Cajun......dogs are a creature of habit, if dog a points all the time, and dog b follows an backs all the time, why should dog b, get the bird in mouth being the prize? The backing dog doesnt [imo] need that kind of award. Dog a, done the work, and the job. If dog b, get the award all the time, why would it want to push harder, try harder, run stronger, be better? It is still gonna get an undeserved award, why would it need or wanna try and get better? Dogs on the wagon, retrievers an such, are there only for the retrieves.......the pointing dogs are supposed to stay put, and on point, until the retrievers work is done. That keeps less train wrecks, and mass confusion. Just a little something to think on. Thanks Jonesy

Coveyrise64 · Post by **Coveyrise64** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:26 am

tailcrackin wrote:Steve sorta agree, but if the dog can hear the word "whoa" why cant he hear the "here", and you walk him away from the danger.......or do they listen, and pay attention to it, like the word whoa? [BG] Why use the words in training, and not use it in the real deal, that is a rule change, that changes the situation. Right?

Cajun......dogs are a creature of habit, if dog a points all the time, and dog b follows an backs all the time, why should dog b, get the bird in mouth being the prize? The backing dog doesnt [imo] need that kind of award. Dog a, done the work, and the job. If dog b, get the award all the time, why would it want to push harder, try harder, run stronger, be better? It is still gonna get an undeserved award, why would it need or wanna try and get better? Dogs on the wagon, retrievers an such, are there only for the retrieves.......the pointing dogs are supposed to stay put, and on point, until the retrievers work is done. That keeps less train wrecks, and mass confusion. Just a little something to think on. Thanks Jonesy

I prefer the "here" over the "whoa" when imminent danger is obvious but have used both commands. Just depends on which one my little brain recognizes first in the situation.

I like the stop to flush method of teaching honoring but you better have a backup plan if the backing dog fails to see the bird. It does and will happen. That is where the honor to the verbal "whoa" command is effective. I teach both methods.

Not always but on occasion I will let the backing dog have a retrieve but the bird it will retrieve is never the bird that was shot for the pointing dog. Assuming the pointing dog did the work correctly it is due the retrieve plus I don't want the backing dog to get the idea it is OK to break in front of the pointing dog. A train wreck waiting to happen in a test or trial. The backing dog gets a seperate bird off to the side. It teaches the backing dog there is the potential for another flush and it needs to remain steady through the whole ordeal, then that retrieve becomes a reward for his performance as well. If neither dog performs correctly I walk out and pick up the birds myself. No retrieve for sub-standard performance.

Coveyrise64

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:19 pm

Coveyrise, good post, you know the verbal work to tell a dog to back, and only talking on the backing........do you think that looks good in front of your buddies eyes, or the judges? Or do you think it will look better when the dog does it on its own, without a word? Do you think that could be alot of what causes the issues of dogs that attempt, or blink backing? Is it maybe the verbal pressure, of not wanting to do it, or the tone of the verbal, and dog getting nervous of the "after effect" for not doing what it was told? What do you think, I know you get to watch alot of things where you are. Thanks Jonesy

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:38 pm

I guess that's why you train your dogs to such a high level, huh, Terry? That walking out and bending over to pick up birds will wear you out!

Coveyrise64 · Post by **Coveyrise64** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:59 pm

tailcrackin wrote:Coveyrise, good post, you know the verbal work to tell a dog to back, and only talking on the backing........do you think that looks good in front of your buddies eyes, or the judges? Or do you think it will look better when the dog does it on its own, without a word? Do you think that could be alot of what causes the issues of dogs that attempt, or blink backing? Is it maybe the verbal pressure, of not wanting to do it, or the tone of the verbal, and dog getting nervous of the "after effect" for not doing what it was told? What do you think, I know you get to watch alot of things where you are. Thanks Jonesy

Good question Jonsey. No doubt a dog that honors on his own without any verbal cue will make a better impression but sometimes you have to do what is necessary to help your dog in a difficult situation or to keep a dog in the game. If I'm going to pick the dog up I'd rather make a training situation out of a wreck than let it go and have to deal with it multiple times over.

I do believe the tone of the command or the pressure related for refusal could have an effect on the dogs desire to honor or the intensity of the honor. The blinkers are typically the dogs that are made to honor because they never learned why or how at an early age. I would rather the dog learn backing in a more natural situation at a young age. I think the sooner you nurture that instinct the more in tune they become to their surroundings.

Coveyrise64

nooblet · Post by **nooblet** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 5:35 pm

I think there are great uses for having the trailing dog retrieve some birds. Frist, it reminds the pointing dog that it does not get all retrieves. Why is that important? Because that dog will cheat when the bird is shot or hits the ground if it konws that everytime, it gets the retrieve. I allow the trailing dog to get somet birds to keep the pointing dog honest. To that end, I retrieve some myself as well. Just to keep them honest. Second, it allows the trailing dog to get some retrieves - that's what they are there for - a bird in the mouth. I have an older dog and a younger dog. My younger dog outhunts by older dog purely because of stamina. Is the older dog "not worth his salt?" No, he's just slower but still deserves a reward from time to time for backing.

I should clarify as well, I dont teach whoa but through check cord work (at the pup age) and now extremely light collar "reminders" I can acheive the same commands without verbal sounds.

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:22 pm

You people need to be around some of the top pro trainers in the U.S. and listen to the word WHOA or whoa. You'd be suprised.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:41 pm

kensfishing wrote:You people need to be around some of the top pro trainers in the U.S. and listen to the word WHOA or whoa. You'd be suprised.

I apprenticed under a fella that put over 100 ch titles on dogs....I wouldn't be surprised. If he had to whoa a dog much they didn't stay around long.

Trick was to develop an honest dog from a very young age with very little to no pressure.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:07 pm

Trick was to develop an honest dog from a very young age with very little to no pressure.

I believe they call that style.......

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:08 pm

As we all know, there are several good methods for training bird dogs and there are many, many people more experienced and knowledgeable than I will ever be. I am always looking for easier and/or better ways and may use one method for one dog and may need to do something different with another dog. However, doing "yard training" which includes teaching the whoa command has always served me well and I have no intentions of changing that. I guess I am just getting to danged old to change something that has worked for handlers and trainers for years and years.

When I made the comment about letting the backing dog get a retrieve, we were talking about a dog that had no inclination to honor, not a dog that already backs. JMO.

Charlie

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:27 pm

I use several of my older dogs to teach backing. They don't care if a young dog blows past them on point. God Mike has been knocked off his feet from a younger one broadsiding him. He just takes and stands there. It's nice to have dogs like that. besides he's been finished in trials for years. He just runs for fun and hour championships.

SetterNut · Post by **SetterNut** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:05 pm

tailcrackin wrote:Steve sorta agree, but if the dog can hear the word "whoa" why cant he hear the "here", and you walk him away from the danger.......or do they listen, and pay attention to it, like the word whoa? [BG] Why use the words in training, and not use it in the real deal, that is a rule change, that changes the situation. Right?

Jonesy
The best example I can give you was on a day that John and I were hunting over on the fort, where I had been before and thought safe. I looked over at Ace and he was right in between some coils of concertina wire. I did not want him to move. He stood there and I walked over and lead him out of there.

But you are right about if they can here whoa they can hear come. I used a verbal whoa a few times in training situation, like early in the STF training. It is a good command to have in the bag, but don't use it in the field much at all any more. Maybe a time or two when he is coming up on another dog point in tall grass that he is not going to see until it is too late. Those dang V's are hard to see in tall grass

Coveyrise64 · Post by **Coveyrise64** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:10 pm

kensfishing wrote:You people need to be around some of the top pro trainers in the U.S. and listen to the word WHOA or whoa. You'd be suprised.

Since it sound as though you've hung out with some of the top pro trainers in the U.S. how about sharing some of your knowledge about the word "WHOA" or "whoa".

Coveyrise64