Trainers in Wisconsin?

Gdogger · Post by **Gdogger** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 9:54 am

Hello everybody. I've been reading this forum for a few months, but this is my first post. I have a 14 week old GSP. He is my first personal dog. I've grown up with dogs so I'm not new to training concepts. I've read countless books and watched a few videos as well. My pup is doing great on lots of basic obedience commands including wait, here, fetching, no, kennel and so on. I've had a real struggle lately with deciding whether or not to send him to a professional when he hits six months. For all the books I've read and people I've talked to it is still extremely difficult deciding which methods or concepts to pick from each source and which ones to ignore. I have plenty of faith in myself, its more a matter of knowlege and experience that I lack. I want him to be able to perform some waterfowl work as well and that makes it even more difficult deciding how to integrate some basic waterfowl training into some of the upland training.

I know that most people here are very in to training themselves, which I am all for. I have time and patience. I live within city limits but accross the street from a 1200 acre park/reserve, there is lots of public land within 10 minutes and we have a place with our own land about an hour away. I'm not sure if this situation allows for enough immediately accessible land or a place to keep birds where I can get to them regularly. Anyways, a generally opionion on professional trainers would be great. And sorry for the long winded post, but if anyone knows of any good trainers in southern Wisconsin, that would be most helpful as well? I have two in mind, but really can't differenciate between the two.

Thanks for your help. I enjoy this site quite a bit.

rschuster54303` · Post by **rschuster54303`** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 10:42 am

What part of WI?

What area are you in?

There are some very good trainers in the state, help to know the area your looking at wouldnt want to recommend a trainer in Racine if your from Goodmen

Regards,

Rob

Gdogger · Post by **Gdogger** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 10:49 am

Thanks for the reply Rob. I live in Madison right now. I wouldn't mind travelling an hour or maybe two to get to a trainer. I know most like visits every week after the first two weeks.

I've already spoke with Tom Waite of Dale Creek Gundogs in Burlington and with Tim Mader of Bluegrass Kennels near Horicon. I was impressed by both.

ssjetset · Post by **ssjetset** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 11:23 am

Tim from Bluegrass kennels has trained a pup I sold a while back and from what I heard did a great job. Also contact Mike Kindler from sandhills kennels located in ,I think, Burnett, Great trainer, I've seen the results of his training and was impressed.

rschuster54303` · Post by **rschuster54303`** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:10 pm

I know both of those trainers, I can not comment on Tim, but I have seen Tom's dogs run and even run under his judgement. I must say over all he is a nice guy.

Another option is Dennis Brath at Cadens Kennels, I do not know him personally but Dave Quindt has good things to say about him, and I respect Dave's opinion.

http://www.cadenskennels.com

2 other option to the south of you would be

Kojack kennels by Jerry jordan, I have a dog from a litter of his. I don't know Jerry other then word of mouth but everything I have heard has been good.

http://www.kojackennels.com/

Terry at Khawk kennels. Terry is no longer field trialing but is still training. I have 2 dogs out of his stock and I am very impressed with him over all. Although he may be a bit far from you.

http://www.khawkgsp.com

If you wanted to See some of Tom Waite's dogs run he will be at the same trial I will be at this weekend, just about 45 minutes north of Green Bay at 2 C's game farm.

PM me if you want more info on it.

Regards,

Rob

Gdogger · Post by **Gdogger** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:54 pm

Thanks for the suggestions and opinions. I will definately contact a few of these trainers.

Appreciated,
Greg

Rob,
I would love to see a field trial and see Tom's dogs. I will have to decide quickly if I can make that trip this weekend. I've already got plans tomorrow, so I don't think it will work unless it goes through Sunday as well? Let me know. Thanks again.

rschuster54303` · Post by **rschuster54303`** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:03 pm

Here is the info.

Saturday is a USTU Trail (American Field)
Sunday is a ABHA Trial (American Field)

The running will start at 7:30 AM both days.

It is at 2 C's game farm in Peshtigo, WI.

I have directions if you need them. Other wise if you have the April 1st American Field magazine there is info on page 26.

Let me know if you need anything else.

Regards,

Rob

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:21 pm

Cadens Kennels is the most established dog training kennel here in WI, with 3 full time trainers and an obedience specialist. They are just north of West Bend, WI, just off of Hwy 28 in Campbellsport.

Gary Hansen is handling all of the finished retrievers and spaniels, Dennis Brath handles all of the competition pointers, along with some hunting dogs. Jeff Lemmenes handles young retrievers, and most of the pointing breed hunting dogs. He also handles the Sunday walk-in training sessions that they offer.

Dennis and Gary both have extensive pointer, retriever and spaniel experience; they may be the only two trainers in the US to have each trained and handled Master Hunter pointers, retrievers and spaniels. They, along with Jeff, have each trained multiple NAVHDA UTI and NSTRA Champions.

Dennis is also the only trainer in the US to have trained multiple Master Hunters, Field Champions, NAVHDA Versatile Champions and NSTRA Champions.

Dennis will be running at the GSP Club of Wisconsin's spring field trial at the Bong Rec area NW of Kenosha this weekend.

The nice thing about Cadens is their "open door" policy. All of their training is done right in front of the hunt club clubhouse. Both clients and visitors are welcomed at any time; they never close access when they are training. That's how I got started in the game - they allowed me to spend as much time as I wanted watching them train. For the first year they didn't make much money off of me other than the occasional soda and $25 session fee to work my own dog; but I saw literally dozens and dozens of dogs being trained.

They also handle a good amount of business via individual sessions. Folks who don't want to drop their dogs off for full time training can instead arrange for one-on-one sessions with one of the trainers. They've helped folks take their dogs from pups to Master Hunters just through personal sessions.

They also have a full service hunt club right there, and you can arrange for a hunt and have one of the trainers come along to give advice on dog handling in actual hunting situations. They've got training ponds dug on their property that were specifically designed for retriever training.

Greg Dixon in another choice, but being up near Eau Claire he's probably too far for you.

Mike Kindler is no longer training professionally.

If you want to know more, just shoot me an email at dlquindt@hotmail.com

Hope this helps,
Dave

ssjetset · Post by **ssjetset** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:11 am

Dave , what is Kindler doing now? Show's how out of touch I am with the GSP community here in Wis.

bigoak · Post by **bigoak** » Thu May 18, 2006 8:40 am

Dave Hill of Hillhaven kennel is located in Janesville,Wi.Dae has been training since the early 1970's.His kennel is closer to your home than most of the other trainers......vern

GRIFF MAN · Post by **GRIFF MAN** » Thu May 18, 2006 9:18 am

Have you thought about joining a Navdha club there are some great ones in Wisconsin and they would help you learn alot.

Nothing against trainers if you have the money to do it. But it is rewarding to do it your self.

Look up the Navdha chapters and give them a chance.

Griff

Gdogger · Post by **Gdogger** » Fri May 19, 2006 9:00 am

Vern,

Thanks for the input on Hillhaven. Do you have any first hand experience with them? I'm pretty set on Caden's already.

Griff,

Part of me still wants to train him myself because I know it would be so rewarding. My biggest issue is having enough access to birds and a close place to train him on birds and a gun on a day to day basis. I will see if I can catch a NAVHDA event in the area or at least talk to a chapter in the area. Thanks for your help.

-Greg

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Fri May 19, 2006 9:33 am

i have used Greg Dixon myself, and know Dennis Brath. they are both very good trainers. totally agree with Dave Quindt.

GRIFF MAN · Post by **GRIFF MAN** » Fri May 19, 2006 11:01 am

Part of me still wants to train him myself because I know it would be so rewarding

You got that right. It is, next to having kids, one of the most rewarding things I have done.
Take a chance, you can always go to a trainer after your attempt. The Navdha boys will have contacts for birds and the friends you meet will be worth while.

Griff

Gdogger · Post by **Gdogger** » Thu May 25, 2006 8:07 am

Thanks for your input guys. I'm gonna take him to Dennis for now. He already spent two weeks there as a puppy and I was impressed with what they did. Maybe after a hunting season is under his belt I'll explore NAVHDA a little more. One thing at a time for now.

Greg

snips · Post by **snips** » Thu May 25, 2006 12:57 pm

I don`t know what kind of training you want at 6 mo. but I only like to get dogs a real good start at that age. I prefer dogs be at least 10 mo - a yr old before formally steadying up. If they are pretty bold on their birds and hunting very well I think waiting awhile before paying a Pro is money much better spent. Better on the trainer and the dog. JMO

Gdogger · Post by **Gdogger** » Thu May 25, 2006 1:25 pm

Hi Brenda-

I appreciate your opinion. My experience is quite limited compared to yours. Maybe then you could expand on why you prefer 10 months to six months. In addition, why do so many trainers want dogs at six months? All the professionals that I have talked to have stated that they want the dogs at six months in order to get the best results. I know that their are many ways to train a dog just like there are many ways to do everything else. My family has had a few labs professionaly trained starting at six months and the results have been great. I'm not looking for a finished dog at this point, but because he is five months right now, if he is trained professionally from July through August, he will be much better prepared for his first hunting season where as if I wait til he's ten months, most of the good bird hunting around here will be over. Next spring he'll probably get more professional visits, but not days or weeks away. Additionally, I feel that getting him into qualified hands with proper experience early on will eliminate the potential for me, an inexperience trainer, to make bad mistakes with him in his first season. And, I will be visiting him almost every weekend to keep up with what is going on and so that I can learn how to train the dogs myself in the future. What do you think?

-Greg

snips · Post by **snips** » Thu May 25, 2006 1:54 pm

Dogs closer to a yr are mentally more capable of handling training and maintaining it. Breaking dogs out too young can take away from their range annd independence later on. I like young dogs to see birds (not so many they get in real bad habits) go for walks, learn where to find birds, get gun conditioned, get collar conditioned if they need it, but wait for training til they are ready. Labs are much different than birddogs.

Gdogger · Post by **Gdogger** » Thu May 25, 2006 1:59 pm

I think that makes sense. My question still remains. Why do all the professional bird dog trainers that I have talked to want them at six months.

-Greg

snips · Post by **snips** » Thu May 25, 2006 2:02 pm

You got me. $$$ I guess I should not say that, it all comes down to what you want out of your dog.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu May 25, 2006 2:11 pm

i think dennis would agree with what you are saying brenda. i don't think either dennis or greg dixon, the pros under consideration, would want to break a dog at 6 mos. in fact, i know they would not.

part of the problem dog owners increasingly face, and the reason why most pros want the dog at a young age, is difficulty in getting the dog out on birds enough. while these pros would not want to break a dog at 6 mos., neither would they want to just leave them on a shelf until they get old enough. by that time, if they have not been run on birds, you are behind the curve.

i gave my current trial dog to greg dixon at 6 mos. he was basically just a run around puppy and derby dog, went to summer and winter camps, got on many wild and planted birds. he was ready to break out a little early as i recall, a little before he was a year old.

but i don't think that with either of the pros under consideration, there needs to be any concern that they will push the dog into heavy training such as breaking out, too soon. either one of them would develop that dog at its own pace, run it on lots of birds, get it pointing, work to staunch it up when it is ready, that sort of thing.

i have had Greg Dixon work on my dogs, and have hung around quite a bit with Dennis. i don't think there needs to be any concern that the dog will be rushed or that training that is age inappropriate would be applied. Dennis has a pretty nice string of dogs. Dave Quindt works with him quite a bit, and could provide more detail if he chimes in.

now if a person had a quarter or half section of good cover to run a dog on, plenty of birds, and the time to do this maybe three evenings a week, you could do it yourself and wait for the pro work until it is breaking time in a few months. you would learn things in the process. unfortunately, the land and time aspects are increasingly hard for alot of people to meet.

snips · Post by **snips** » Thu May 25, 2006 2:21 pm

Thats why we like to get pups at 6-7 mo, to expose them to everything they need to enable them to train out nice when the time comes. (but this is for a month). I know these are very reputable trainers and know what they are doing, but what you can do in less time on a dog when they are of age, than what you can do with kid gloves as a puppy. I think someone is still better off loosing part of their hunting season getting a dog worked then, than getting in a hurry because of impending hunting season.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Thu May 25, 2006 2:35 pm

I personally like to get a pup a little before hunting season. I find that the hunting season gets the pup used to other dogs new people, seeing the other dogs bound into thick cover and birds flying out really helps a puppy too.

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Thu May 25, 2006 6:54 pm

FWIW, I have looked at many Pro trainer web sites and most of them offer a puppy program that tyipicaly is only a month or two and it is just that to get the pup exposed to lots of birds, getting it to recall reliably and mabey developing the natural retrieve. I suppose it all depends on the trainer and the owner and what they expect accomplished at a certain age.

A Pro may be wanting a pup at the earlier age so they dont have to undo any training that the owner may have created prior too.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Thu May 25, 2006 11:08 pm

Dogs closer to a yr are mentally more capable of handling training and maintaining it. Breaking dogs out too young can take away from their range annd independence later on. ......I know these are very reputable trainers and know what they are doing, but what you can do in less time on a dog when they are of age, than what you can do with kid gloves as a puppy.

Brenda, all of this assumes that everyone trains the same way you do, and that no one has developed a "better mousetrap".

I don't know much about Greg Dixon's methods but I do know as much about the training program at Cadens Kennels as any client out there.

When breaking dogs there are two aspects that need to be balanced; the dog's development and maturity level AND the training program being used. Traditional "direct pressure" training programs generally need a dog in the 12-18 month old stage for formal breaking.

The program they use at Cadens is not "direct pressure" but a different style of training that is unlike any other program in the country. It's based on the indirect pressure methods that Mike Lardy has developed for retrievers and modified for pointing breeds. Since the two owners of Cadens both have a heavy retriever background, including working with Mike, they've been exposed to methods that are unheard of in the pointer world.

In the traditional Cadens model, the GSPs from their breeding program (or other dogs that they feel are ready) are broke steady to wing and shot, and retrieving to hand when they are ready to accept the training methods that they use. This is generally at 8-12 months of age.

This same program is used for most of the dogs regardless of their ultimate goal; the meat dogs get the same process as the NAVHDA dogs and as the MH dogs and as the field trial dogs. Why? Because using the methods they use, the dogs are ready for breaking at that age. If they used the methods that Brenda or Greg Dixon used, they would not be able to break dogs at that age without the repurcusions that Brenda mentioned.

They don't need to "train with kid gloves" because the methods they use don't require it.

Do they break all of the dogs at this age? Nope. Dogs that are late maturing, weak pointing, overly soft or of breeds that are known to have problems with early training with be delayed. I've seen them send dogs home for months at a time until the dog was ready for training. They don't train according to the calendar; they train according to when the dogs are ready for training USING THEIR METHODS. The dogs may not be ready for training using Delmar Smith's methods or George Hickox's methods but since they use a method that applies pressure in a different method then those other pros it really doesn't matter, does it?

They have developed a "better mouse trap" and it has given them the success record that I believe makes that training program the most successful multiple-venue pointing breed training program in existance today. There is not another training kennel out there that has produced 40+MHs AND 30+ NAVHDA UT AND 15+ FC and AFCs plus a number of NSTRA CHs and NAVHDA VCs as well. If someone knows of a training program with that varied of accomplishment in as many different venues I'd love to hear about it.

If there program didn't work for them, it's hard to believe they would have still been able to develop dogs like these listed below.

FWIW,
Dave

FC/AFC Cadens Ruger Weltmeister - fully broke at 9 months of age, AFC at 15 months, 2nd series of the National Amateur Championship at 17 months:

FC/AFC Cadens Maggie MH - fully broke at 12 months.

VC FC/AFC Dr N's CJ MH - fully broke at 10 months, MH at 13 months, FC/AFC at 23.5 months. Retired due to injury 1 point shy of his NSTRA CH. 100% COMPLETELY AMATEUR HANDLED TO ALL PLACEMENTS AND TITLES. The first VC/FC/AFC/MH GSP in the breed.

FC/AFC Neenah Creek Remi MH - fully broke at 8 months, MH by 18 months. Didn't run in her first trial until she was almost 3 and still finished in less than 2 years.

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Cadens Roxie Rose - fully broke at 9 months, first MH pass at 12 months. Roxy retired at 4 years old 2 points shy of her FC and AFC.

FC Shooting Starr's Ranger MH UTI - fully broke by 12 months.

FC/AFC Wilson's Sassy Tiger - broke at 11 months.

VC 6 NSTRA CH Cadens Rowdy Rudy MH - fully broke at 10 months. Died at the peak of his NSTRA career and was 2 points shy of his FC. 100% completely amateur handled. The first dog of any breed to be a VC/NSTRA CH/MH.

CH CJ's Anastacia von Rostig - If breaking a dog early takes the run out of them, she didn't get the message! NGSPA Region IV AA '05 Champion as a derby dog (under 2 years of age), NGSPA Hun AA RU CH and NGSPA Region IV AA '06 Repeat CH before her 3rd birthday. She broke herself at 9 months old.

FC/AFC Kiplinger's Tieyha MH UTI - the only dog of any breed to be an AKC FC/AFC/MH, NAVHDA UTI and have AFTCA horseback shooting dog placements. Broke at 12 months.

FC/AFC Cadens River Runs Wild - broke at 9 months, second series GSPCA National Amateur at 17 months.

Rusti's Mom · Post by **Rusti's Mom** » Fri May 26, 2006 7:08 am

Dave,
Great picture of my "Staci Dog".

I can't say enough about Caden's and Dennis. I love to watch him evaluate entire litters. He takes all of the pups out into the fields and just walks along tossing out the pigeons and watches each pup and their reaction. I have been able to see all three of my litters "tried out" under his methods and he is just incredible.

Staci has been with him since she was 6 months old and he also has another pup of ours, Alischa, and he will be running her in the Futurity at Eureka in October. I have my horse reserved so that I can see both of these young ladies at the GSP Nationals.

You will not be disappointed sending a pup to Caden's.

Pat

Hotpepper · Post by **Hotpepper** » Fri May 26, 2006 9:54 am

Dennis is getting it done. Very impressed and I have been in there since the 1st of the year with my dog. He has learned a lot about the "field trial game" in a very short period and his intelligence as a business person shows since he is the Chairman of the "300" dog GSPCA trial. At the big championships, he a Eldon partner up and that is all that is needed to be said. They make a formibidle team.

Went to 4 championships with Dennis this spring and we both got smarter after each one. Lots of good young ones in the truck and a very bright future for the dogs and owners/handlers in the Caden's truck.

Glad to be a part of the deal that gets better every day.

I would say the strength of Dennis's program, besides his ability as a trainer, is his communications skills with the owners. He really involves me each week.

Pepper

Gdogger · Post by **Gdogger** » Fri May 26, 2006 10:02 am

Thanks everyone for all the good reviews of Dennis and the Caden's program. I am very excited to send my pup there again and learn more.

-Greg

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Fri May 26, 2006 10:07 am

i have one more piece of information about Dennis for you.

i don't think i have ever seen him around dogs when he did not have a big smile on his face. he just loves being there. every minute of it.

snips · Post by **snips** » Fri May 26, 2006 11:25 am

Sounds like the right place for your puppy!

Hotpepper · Post by **Hotpepper** » Sat May 27, 2006 2:48 pm

It is my honest opinion that with all of the good stuff being thrown at him, Dennis Brath 's Halo may become pretty tilted.

He is a good trainer that has been at it a long time. Just not that long as a field trialer. he is getting that done too though. :shock:

Pepper

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Mon May 29, 2006 9:25 am

I never have had any dogs with Dennis, but any dealings I have ever had with him have been top notch.

I would say the strength of Dennis's program, besides his ability as a trainer, is his communications skills with the owners. He really involves me each week.

Thats good to hear about the communication, as that has been my pet peave with most pro trainers, lack of communication.

sweetsong · Post by **sweetsong** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:34 pm

I brought my GSP pup Greta to Dennis about 3 weeks ago and I couldn't be happier with her progress.

Terry

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