Dog wont leave heel

Decoy · Post by **Decoy** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 11:21 am

I am having a problem with our DK not leaving heel.
He WILL leave heel to retrieve everytime.
He will NOT leave heel to hunt, run, explore, etc... unless there is another dog with him.
It is almost like he thinks he is doing something wrong by leaving.
When I give him the OK and a head tap -- I want him to take off at a sprint.

Any Ideas?

Post by **grant** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 11:51 am

When I give him the OK and a head tap -- I want him to take off at a sprint

Are you using birds at all?

When working with Carl, he did not want to hunt either because he had not been exposed to birds until about 6 months old. Once I directed him into a few planted birds, he started to catch on and hunt!

Seems like birds reinforce the dogs natural instinct to hunt.

Now, whenever I blast my whistle, or say "get your bird" He takes off looking for birds.

Are you heeling your dog too often

I haven't been in the sport long enough to see this happen, but I have heard Pro trainers talk about dogs that the owners have used heel a little too much.

I like my dogs to stay somewhat close on a hunt, but not to be hesitant to range a little.

This in mind, I just limit how much I use the command heel and come.

Someone else will probably have some better advice, but I just wanted to comment =)

icefire · Post by **icefire** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:06 pm

how old is the dog and how much training have you done? grant is right, to much pressure at the wrong times can lead to a dog that is afraid to go out. A big mistake that a lot of people do is train to much to early and do a lot of pressure tyupe training with to little of the fun stuff. it is a delicate balance and not all dogs are the same. tell us a little more about the dog, how old and what you have done with it.

ice

Decoy · Post by **Decoy** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:32 pm

Dog's Bio:
DK
1 yr
Prize 1 in Derby
He has seen wild Quail, and Pen raised birds
great natural backing
good nose
avid swimmer
water retrieving is his strongest desire
obedience is good: sit, stay, heel, halt, whoa.
proficient in 200+ yard rabbit drags
retrieves to hand

I think birds may be the answer, the last time I had birds a couple weeks ago my GSP found them all and the DK was swimming in the pool the whole time. I will have to release some birds somewhere where there is NO water within 2 miles.

Country-Side Breeders · Post by **Country-Side Breeders** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 1:09 pm

Make sure you take your DK out alone and not with your GSP, too.

Decoy · Post by **Decoy** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 1:14 pm

When I take the DK out alone he heels.

icefire · Post by **icefire** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:04 pm

you said that if you take him out alone he heels. if that is where the problem is, you can't fix it by taking him out with the other dog. fix it when he is alone with you. I would totally back off from any type of "training" at this time. take him out on extended walks and do not give him any sort of commands except possibly encouragement. has he been broke to flush? steady to wing? if not yet, take him where you will kick up birds of any kind that he cannot catch. let him chase them. he has to learn that it is ok to be away from you. we do see our dogs range shortened when we are in a heavy training cycle but it does not take but a couple of days of running to get right back out there. now when i say shortened, i mean seeing a dog stay within 50-100 yards. a couple of days (sometimes only a couple of minutes) without any pressure at all and they are right back out there again.

Decoy · Post by **Decoy** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:40 pm

My wife has him out right now hopefully they will run into some birds, I will find out this evening how things went and i will take him out again this evening for a 4-wheeler ride and let him run.

I will let you know how it goes.

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:35 pm

Part of what DK breeders often stress as a selling point for their "breed" (which is of course just a branch of the good ole GSP, but an association with very stringent breeding guidlines) is that the dogs are naturally close working and very people oriented. If you have done a lot of yard work, and obedience work, the dog has simply been trained to follow it's breeding and be very dependant on you for direction.

You can very easily cure this by having him run with bigger running dogs, as they will draw him out, and give him the confidence to get out and "be a dog". I often run into dogs that young in life are very close working but over time and running with bigger ranging dogs learn to stretch out and hunt. You do as Ice mentioned really need to back off the control for a while and let the dog build his confidence. No you don't want him running amok, but you don't want to be whistling and hacking him in every time he gets a hundred yards out either.

Good luck. CR

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:12 pm

Decoy, I think he has graduated!

PA_Sportsman · Post by **PA_Sportsman** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 6:54 am

One thing you might want to try is to plant a bird or birds at the far end of a field each time you train and let the dog learn that if it ranges out further from you it will find more birds than if it stays closer to you.

Decoy · Post by **Decoy** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 8:14 am

Snips,
I think you are right!

Obviously this post was going on while the events of yesterday occurred.

For those of you who were not in N. Ga yesterday here is what happened.

My wife had the dogs out and I guess they took to chasing a deer. But anyway the GSP came back after about 2+ hrs but the DK did not return for over 5 hrs. Maybe he learned a little bit yesterday. At least he learned that he can't catch a deer. I don’t like it that they chased a deer but that is a pretty easy fix. Maybe he picked up some confidence out there in the deep woods

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:36 am

I`m just glad we`re not still looking today! If they stay around here much they WILL find something to hunt. Sudie also had a valuable lesson about what lurks in the deep dark woods.

sudiegirl · Post by **sudiegirl** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 10:05 am

i'll say... SPIDERS!!!!!!

thanks again for all your help finding the pups yesterday... i will be ready with that e collar next time!!! tell all those puppies hey from me and that i will be back down to hug them soon!!!
UPDATE: he can't catch a deer, but he CAN catch a rabbit (and bring the bottom half of the carcass to me .... i am assuming that he and judge devoured the top half while out running this morning) i would have to say that i think that the heeling "problem" is fixed for now. :roll:
sudie

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 12:12 pm

Be sure and worm them both with Ivomec and something for tape worms as well. Rabbits carry at least tow types of tapes that can infect a dog as well as everal round worm species! Not to mention all those fleas!

Hopefully the getting lost won't end up making your problem even worse. Many bold dogs after getting lost for half a day are liable to end up very shy for a while and afraid to venture out of sight of the handler for several trips out. At least he learned that he can get out without getting eaten!

Just be patient they'll figure it out. CR

ourhunters · Post by **ourhunters** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 12:59 pm

Wildrose:

This has nothing to do with healing, etc. But, has to do with your last post.

Do you reworm the dogs after any contact with rabbit, fox, etc.? This may sound dumb, but one of our dogs loves feces. Last week we were out riding horse and I took him with to run. He ate a ton of horse manure. One of the horses is sick with a bad bladder infection. He's up to date on his worming (meaning we get his vaccinations and worming whenever the vet says we're supposed to) etc., but would it be a good idea to worm dogs again after a run in with something like this or with the rabbit situation? I never know when I'm being too cautious about him. He had a few days within a week of eating that where he was throwing up, but seems ok now.

Thanks for such good information on the site. It's very helpful for inexperienced hunting dog owners and experienced, for that matter!

Caren

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 8:47 pm

No I just worm monthly with full strength Ivermection. The reason for concern with the rabbitt eating paricularly this time of year is parasites, a particularly nasty tape worm that invests predators by eating the meat of rabbits, and of course the roundworms. You want to hit them both hard and immediately. Worming your dog one time extra won't do any harm. The tape worms can be particularly hard to clear out of a kennel once you get them started since mice become the intermediate host, actually carrying around the flea that transports the eggs. Ancylostoma caninum is the normal dog tape worm and it really doesn't do much harm. I can't remember the proper name, for the other one but it's the "tape worm of carnivoires" and its spread by the consumption of infected meat. There's an old wives tail about not eating rabbits until after the seconed hard freeze, like many old time food taboo's it has some merit.

If eating horse and cow poop was bad for dogs all of mine would proably be dead or never born! Not all dog do, but given a chance most seem to be attracted to both horse and cow poop, no rhyme or reason and there's not much you can do about it, just nature at work. You'll also find a lot of dogs simply like to roll in fresh horse and cow poop for "camouflage". CR

Colleen · Post by **Colleen** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 5:43 am

They caught a RABBIT!!?? What's next, a cheetah?? Those are some quick dogs ya got there. I've been letting Fletch chase all the rabbits he wants "so he learns he can't catch them"...maybe I oughtta rethink that...I really didn't think dogs were quick enough to catch rabbits...

sudiegirl · Post by **sudiegirl** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 6:08 am

ok thanks for the worming info... i will go ahead and do that (we are within a couple of days of worming/flea/tick control time anyway! ) yes..... they are fast little boogers, and are great at disappearing acts. they are poop connoisseurs and also like hoof clippings ..... the blacksmith is their friend. it is too FOUL!!! at least i was able to use the 1/2 rabbit for a rabbit drag yesterday afternoon.... what is it.... waste not want not? i am not sure i still wasn't wanting a WHOLE rabbit!!!!

sudie

snips · Post by **snips** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 6:14 am

Sudie, I worked on a horse farm for years, and there is nothing like your dog hanging out in the shop all day then throwing them up on your living room carpet that nite! Ughhh.

sudiegirl · Post by **sudiegirl** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 6:18 am

yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucccccccckkkkkkkk!!!!!!! and speaking of vomiting..... you should have SEEN my face when they brought the 1/2 rabbit yesterday.... oh JOY of joys!!!
sudie

Country-Side Breeders · Post by **Country-Side Breeders** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 8:07 am

One of my GSP's will play with the rabbit after he catches it...dead of course. He flips it up in the air and has a great time. We've got a number of cats now, so the bunny population is down. But before that, 2 of mine loved bunny huntin'. I only have 1 female that eats them. And, don't get me started about how excited they are to encounter skunks!! My husband's male was playing tag with one a few years back in the yard...needless to say, he got numerous "de-stinker" baths! The other dogs wouldn't even go by him...but that didn't stop him or teach him any lesson, he stills loves to tease a skunk![/b]

gspman · Post by **gspman** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 8:10 am

1of my gsp's catches rabbits all the time.I think he is getting pretty good at it. got 2 last week alone.

It never occurred to me that i should be concerned about worms from eating them.

Country-Side Breeders · Post by **Country-Side Breeders** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 8:26 am

A little info on the tapeworm:

THE COMMON TAPEWORM (Dipylidium caninum)

Biology of the Parasite

The adult Dipylidium caninum lives in the small intestine of the dog or cat. It is hooked onto the intestinal wall by a structure called a rostellum which is sort of like a hat with hooks on it. The tapeworm also has six rows of teeth to grab on with. Most people are confused about the size of a tapeworm because they only see its segments which are small; the entire tapeworm is usually 6 inches or more.

Once docked like a boat to the host intestinal wall, the tapeworm begins to grow a long tail. (The tapeworm’s body is basically a head segment to hold on with, a neck, and many tail segments). Each segment making up the tail is like a separate independent body, with an independent digestive system and reproductive tract. The tapeworm absorbs nutrients through its skin as the food being digested by the host flows past it. Older segments are pushed toward the tip of the tail as new segments are produced by the neckpiece. By the time a segment has reached the end of the tail, only the reproductive tract is left. When the segment drops off, it is basically just a sac of tapeworm eggs.

The sac is passed from the host’s rectum and out into the world, either on the host’s stool or on the host’s rear end. The segment is the size of a grain of rice and is able to move. Eventually the segment will dry and look more like a sesame seed. The sac breaks and tapeworm eggs are released. These eggs are not infectious to mammals. The tapeworm must reach a specific stage of development before it can infect a mammal.

Larval fleas are generally hatching in this vicinity and these larvae are busy grazing on organic debris and flea dirt (the black specks of digested blood shed by adult fleas to nourish their larvae). The flea larvae do not pay close attention to what they eat and innocently consume tapeworm eggs.

Tapeworm segments and flea dirt are found together in the dogs bed. Tapeworm segment breaks, releasing eggs which are eaten by grazing flea larva. Flea larva pupates. The dog licks himself and swallows fleas.

As the larval flea progresses in its development, the tapeworm inside it is also progressing in development. By the time the flea is an adult, the tapeworm is ready to infect a dog or cat. The young tapeworm is only infectious to its mammal host at this stage of its development. The flea goes about its usual business, namely sucking its host’s blood, when to its horror, it is licked away by the host and swallowed.

Inside the host’s stomach, the flea’s body is digested away and the young tapeworm is released. It finds a nice spot to attach and the life cycle begins again. It takes 3 weeks from the time the flea is swallowed to the time tapeworm segments appear on the pet’s rear end or stool.

sudiegirl · Post by **sudiegirl** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:27 pm

actually, the runaways came back all great and even BOLDER than ever!! lucky for us!! in fact, condor especially is much more likely to "roam around" now and see what is out there, which is exactly what i was hoping he would do!! thanks to brenda today on your advise on the "thrower" when working on retrieving. since i can't throw that far, it was JUST the trick to get him to really go out looking for those dummies. he is doing BLIND triples at 50 yards... which is great for him!! yay for the boy!! thanks again brenda!!

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