Getting thru to a wild pup... help appreciated

[Spike]

All,

We have 2 pups, one calm, one wild. We've been trying to take them on walks. They both pull on the leads. I've tried stopping until the pup lets the lead go slack. I've tried soft, moderate and hard tugs on the leads. The little wild one, seems in her own world of outward focus and doesn't seem to "get" any of it. Once we've walked a bit and she get tired, she's better but that just seems to be more exhaustion than compliance or learning.

I've watched some training videos, bought and read some books and it seems I just don't have her attention. So do you all think she just need to mature (~6 mos now), or is there something additional I can do to get her attention or what? They are both sweet pups and I'm not into harsh discipline (have an e-collar but never used it).

Or maybe I'm just too impatient. That has been a perennial problem with me (or so I'm told ).

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

Spike

[nikegundog]

Are you using a choke chain, while walking?

[Spike]

Are you using a choke chain, while walking?

No choke chain, just a flat collar. I have choke chains. Are 6 month Brits OK to use them with?

Spike

[ezzy333]

Are you using a choke chain, while walking?

No choke chain, just a flat collar. I have choke chains. Are 6 month Brits OK to use them with?

Spike

Good don't use a choke chain, they can do some serious damage. a spike collar works better an is much safer for the pup.

Ezzy

[brad27]

Good don't use a choke chain, they can do some serious damage. a spike collar works better an is much safer for the pup.

I've used both and have had better response with a pinch collar. my .02

[kninebirddog]

I prefer a command lead...and try to work in smaller areas to start and change directions turning away from having the pup have to catch up and then turn into where the dog has to learn to move out of your way if you step on the dog well that is what they get for not paying attention

by constantly changing directions starting and stopping speed up slow down this way the dog has to learn to start to pay attention to you not just doing a boring pull forward straight walk

www.huntsmith.com under resources there is an article that was printing in the pointing dog journal on the command lead which explains how to use it ...the goal is for the dog to cue off of you and having a light hand ...it is about getting the dog to mentally work with you not what you can physically force a dog to do

[Spike]

Good don't use a choke chain, they can do some serious damage. a spike collar works better an is much safer for the pup.

Ezzy

I had a trainer (obedience guy) tell me that if you put on the choke collar like a "P" (looking at the collar and standing in front of the dog) to think of it as "perfect" and if it's put on in the reverse configuration (like a "q"), it's "questionable."
I've used choke collars with other (older) Brittanys but always made sure I put them on like a "p"

As I think about those configs, it seems that the "p" would release better while the "q" might not release as well. Any thoughts on this theory?

I went to Gun Dog Supply and read how to use pinch (spiked) collars. It seemed reasonable. (Although, I can't imagine my wife going along with me putting spiked collars on these pups. But that's another issue .)

Thanks again,
Spike

[brad27]

I went to Gun Dog Supply and read how to use pinch (spiked) collars. It seemed reasonable. (Although, I can't imagine my wife going along with me putting spiked collars on these pups. But that's another issue

If used correctly it's no different than any other tool. I've been using one on my almost 7 month old GSP for about 3 weeks now.

[Spike]

I prefer a command lead...and try to work in smaller areas to start and change directions turning away from having the pup have to catch up and then turn into where the dog has to learn to move out of your way if you step on the dog well that is what they get for not paying attention

by constantly changing directions starting and stopping speed up slow down this way the dog has to learn to start to pay attention to you not just doing a boring pull forward straight walk

http://www.huntsmith.com under resources there is an article that was printing in the pointing dog journal on the command lead which explains how to use it ...the goal is for the dog to cue off of you and having a light hand ...it is about getting the dog to mentally work with you not what you can physically force a dog to do

Thanks, kninebirddog. I went to the huntsmith site, searched the articles but couldn't find anything that described the command lead. I just bought the Silent Command System by these folks (thanks, Ray) and that has a some info on it (as I recall. I'll have to go back and re-watch it).

Is a "command lead" the same as a "Delmar Smith Wonder Lead?"

Spike

PS, one of the things that might be helpful for newbies (like me) would be to have a sticky that translated some of the jargon. We pick up some of it by its context (stuff like GDF is easy) but some is more (sometimes much more) difficult, especially the abbreviations.

[Fair Fields]

I agree with knine - Command Lead/wonder lead and change of direction when walking to keep the dog moving and going "with you."

[kninebirddog]

Yes the Command lead aka Wonderlead are the same

here is the link to the article I was referring to http://www.huntsmith.com/articles/TheCommandLead.htm

[Spike]

Yes the Command lead aka Wonderlead are the same

here is the link to the article I was referring to http://www.huntsmith.com/articles/TheCommandLead.htm

Thanks for the link and the info. 2 Wonder Leads on the way to me tomorrow. This will keep peace in the family and hopefully help the pups and me communicate better - especially with the little wild one (I love that pup!).

Thanks to you all. I'll let you know how things progress.

Spike

Edit: BTW, this is exactly what I hoped for in the way of advice from this forum. Thanks again and I'll try to "pay it forward" if and when I'm able.

[kninebirddog]

I see you are in southern cal. If you can carl babbs is a super guy to get some hands on help from. I will be at a hunt test in aguanga this weekend. Going to watch some friends

[Spike]

I see you are in southern cal. If you can carl babbs is a super guy to get some hands on help from. I will be at a hunt test in aguanga this weekend. Going to watch some friends

The wife and I are hoping to make it out to the test (spectators). We joined Cal. Brit. Club a few months back. I'm not much of a club person but we went to a Willie match in Long Beach and some of the members were so nice to us, I decided that I'd join and try to help by giving back (grunt work) if I can.

If we make it (probably Saturday), we're Spike & Ginger (I know, I know - they're dog names ) and will be in a silver Town and Country (Chrysler) van w/one calm dog and one "squirrel."

Come up and say "Hi" if you see us.

All the best,
Spike

[kninebirddog]

I will be staying out there with linda McDonald.
I will be happy to show you a few things to help with your wild child if you would like. Look forward to meeting you. Also carl babbs will be judging on sat

[Spike]

Great! And, thanks in advance.

Spike

Edit: This is us and the pups at 4 months old - everyone, please stop and say "Hi" if you come to the event.

[Buckeye_V]

Your wife will change her mind once she walks dog with pinch collar and realizes the dog does it all to themselves - and you suddenly have "power steering!"

We got one from PetSmart that you can put rubber tips on and remove links or add for different sized dogs. Amazing how quick the dogs learn to not tugg on the leash.

Justin

[ultracarry]

I might make it up to the hunt test on Sunday also... Carl is very nice and gives no B.S. advice. If auanga is not that far for you I would say get a training membership up there. Well worth the money and great training grounds for hunt tests and field trials. The pro trainer has a field trial this weekend so he won't be up there but I'm sure Carl will take the time to talk to you. I'll be the guy with no dog and a white tacoma.

[Spike]

Your wife will change her mind once she walks dog with pinch collar and realizes the dog does it all to themselves - and you suddenly have "power steering!"

We got one from PetSmart that you can put rubber tips on and remove links or add for different sized dogs. Amazing how quick the dogs learn to not tugg on the leash.

Justin

Justin,

Thanks. I'm going to try the Wonder Leads first - on order. If those don't work, I'll maybe try the PetSmart collars. Thanks for the tip (terrible pun intended <g>).

Spike

[Hookadooka BirdDogs]

Try using the "chain gang" method with the dogs. They probably will have them at the event you are going to. Or make your own and use it. Your future walks on lead will be much smoother.

[AzDoggin]

Try using the "chain gang" method with the dogs. They probably will have them at the event you are going to. Or make your own and use it. Your future walks on lead will be much smoother.

Nice looking dogs and humans, Spike!!

Lots of good information here. I don't know what training videos you have but the entire process from "wild pup" to "mannered partner" is completely laid out in the Rick Smith training videos - Puppy Development 1 and 2 http://www.huntsmith.com/store.php#Videos.

There is a progression to go through that ensures that pup learns to be willing to cooperate in a calm way, and the beauty of it is that he teaches himself. It's a combination of table work, chaingang work, checkcord, and command lead. On the videos, the guys take very very young pups and progress through the system. The pup learns that he gets what he wants (usually freedom, sometimes your attention), when he is calm and cooperative, and not until then. The methods are extremely humane and user friendly. I realize it's a little $$, but considering the aggravation you are describing, and the additional equipment you are purchasing, an investment in "knowledge" is well worth it IMO. If you intend to hunt with your dogs, the procedures for early bird exposure are equally well done. These are very professional videos, and are worth several times what they cost to raising a pup, IMO.

(no, I'm not a relative of the Smith's, nor a salesman. I just know the methods work. Good luck.)

[Spike]

Lots of good information here. I don't know what training videos you have but the entire process from "wild pup" to "mannered partner" is completely laid out in the Rick Smith training videos - Puppy Development 1 and 2 http://www.huntsmith.com/store.php#Videos.

There is a progression to go through that ensures that pup learns to be willing to cooperate in a calm way, and the beauty of it is that he teaches himself. It's a combination of table work, chaingang work, checkcord, and command lead. On the videos, the guys take very very young pups and progress through the system. The pup learns that he gets what he wants (usually freedom, sometimes your attention), when he is calm and cooperative, and not until then. The methods are extremely humane and user friendly. I realize it's a little $$, but considering the aggravation you are describing, and the additional equipment you are purchasing, an investment in "knowledge" is well worth it IMO. If you intend to hunt with your dogs, the procedures for early bird exposure are equally well done. These are very professional videos, and are worth several times what they cost to raising a pup, IMO.

Thanks, everyone.
I own the Smith's Silent Command System and have Perfect Start/Perfect Finish being delivered Friday. The Smith's DVD seems like a condensed version of what I imagine is in Puppy Training 1 & 2. I probably ought to watch it a few more times. I'm not into spending foolish money but am willing to spend a bit to learn what others know. A good combination (books, DVDs, forum stuff, and personal contacts) seems like a good way to go.

Thanks again.

Spike

[AzDoggin]

Thanks, everyone.
I own the Smith's Silent Command System and have Perfect Start/Perfect Finish being delivered Friday. The Smith's DVD seems like a condensed version of what I imagine is in Puppy Training 1 & 2. I probably ought to watch it a few more times. I'm not into spending foolish money but am willing to spend a bit to learn what others know. A good combination (books, DVDs, forum stuff, and personal contacts) seems like a good way to go.
Thanks again.
Spike

Spike, maybe it's me, but I find that Silent Command System DVD to be so condensed that it's almost not all that helpful. It's more of an overview. I'm not sure why it was done that way, but part of me wonders whether it was not designed to be a stand-alone training tool, that it left out enough information so you'd have to either sign up for a seminar, or get other materials to have what you need to diy. NOT SO with the Puppy Development videos, though. They are much more detailed, all the way down to crate training, toenail clipping, ear cleaning, intro to calm behavior on the bench, intro to tether/chaingang, how to remove pup from tether/chaingang, how to remove pup from crate, intro to Wonder lead, getting in and out of a vehicle, and so on. I would be very confident using the PD videos almost exclusively through that first year. They start with some wild little pups, and show the behavior of the pups as they progress through the training. There is detail there even discussion how many reps and how much time it took to get a pup to a certain point.

I too have the Perfect Start - and think that is a good one when you start introducing hunt skills in the field - also "here" and intro to e-collar.

Good luck. This time is going to fly by.

[Ruffshooter]

Once you get used to the wonder lead you will love it. The corrections/ques are quicker and more subtle and IMHO the pup is more responsive.

If you get a chance to do one of the smith seminars, that will bring it all home for you.

Enjoy.
Rick

[RoostersMom]

Spike,

Sounds like you have the leash issue handled. I would suggest you google "littermate syndrome" and take heed to that advice on the subject. Two pups at one time is great IF you are committed to exercising them separately, crating them separately, playing separately.... etc. If you don't do 90% of their training separate from one another, you can have some real problems down the road. Most experts recommend that littermates or puppies of the same age go to different homes until about 1 year of age. If you choose to bring two pups into your home, the recommendation is that the pups spend no more than 1 hour per day with the other pup.

I've personally had some issues with pups that were raised together - so I'm very conservative anymore on doing anything to avoid littermate syndrome.

[4dabirds]

All,

We have 2 pups, one calm, one wild. We've been trying to take them on walks. They both pull on the leads. I've tried stopping until the pup lets the lead go slack. I've tried soft, moderate and hard tugs on the leads. The little wild one, seems in her own world of outward focus and doesn't seem to "get" any of it. Once we've walked a bit and she get tired, she's better but that just seems to be more exhaustion than compliance or learning.

I've watched some training videos, bought and read some books and it seems I just don't have her attention. So do you all think she just need to mature (~6 mos now), or is there something additional I can do to get her attention or what? They are both sweet pups and I'm not into harsh discipline (have an e-collar but never used it).

Or maybe I'm just too impatient. That has been a perennial problem with me (or so I'm told ).

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

Spike

When you tug on the dogs lead and then let the lead go slack this is two different methods. The dog has no idea what either of them mean. The dog does not speak English . So any command you are giving at this time is a waste of breath. Tugging on the lead is a correction. Corrections are for learned commands and are temporary. The idea of only walking when the lead is slack will only work if you are consistently doing it. It will be impossible to do with two dogs at once because you need to have perfect timing , and the chances of them both going slack at the same time is minimal . This method works because the dog will always try a different strategy to get what it wants. ie:If a dog wants to go out and you let him out when he barks that is an effective strategy. If you dont let him out he may scratch the door if you let him out now that will be the effective strategy. You need to always be consistent with your training if you expect the dog to understand what you want. I would introduce the dog to clicker training, then use it to teach the dogs to heel then only move forward on a slack lead when the dog is out front. And yes this takes patience and hard work but is better then trying to beat the dog into submission. If you try the teaching by correction the correction will always be relative to the distraction. The greater the distraction the more pressure you will have to put on the dog. But if the dog never gets to move forward by pulling it will give up on this as an effective strategy .Clicker training is an effective way to communicate with the dogs because the clicker, with proper timing, notifies the dog at the exact moment it does something right, that its strategy is what gets the prize. This ,without any correction ,will have you communicating with your dog the way you want to.

[Spike]

4dabirds,
I don't walk both dogs at once. My wife and I each walk one dog. I have 2 Wonder Leads("WL") now and each of us can use one. I tried the WL on my "squirrel" today and saw a definite improvement. I have a clicker but am not coordinated enough to use it and the WL together. I can use it on other behaviors that are not constantly changing (i.e., walking on a lead constantly changes).

RoostersMom,
This is the third set of Brittanys that we've had. It's worked out OK with all of them with this one exception and it seems to be getting a bit better as they mature. The pups really enjoy each other and get upset if they are separated. I'm working on the rough playing and again, things seem to be getting better.

Ruffshooter,
Yes, the WL seems to definitely help the situation. I'm hoping for even more improvement as me, my wife and the dogs learn how it's used.

AzDoggin,
I bought the two puppy development videos by the Smiths and, you're right, they have lots more detailed info. Good suggestion, thanks. I'm getting more educated by the day.

Everyone,
Thanks again. Things seem to be getting better for me and the pups.

All the best,
Spike

[kninebirddog]

Did you get out of the small areas yet LMAO

Your one pup sure got the picture pretty quick even though she tried to find everything else more interesting then me at first. The attention span was pretty short but for her there was a bunch going on.
Sorry I wasn't able to spend more time with you between helping out then having to run my own dog and have some brief reminder sessions with him before going out kept me pretty busy.

[Spike]

Did you get out of the small areas yet LMAO

Your one pup sure got the picture pretty quick even though she tried to find everything else more interesting then me at first. The attention span was pretty short but for her there was a bunch going on.
Sorry I wasn't able to spend more time with you between helping out then having to run my own dog and have some brief reminder sessions with him before going out kept me pretty busy.

Hi,
We went for a short walk today. Jazz was much improved on the Wonder Lead compared to the prior flat-collar walks. I'm hoping that with time and repetition, we'll have a "meeting of the minds."

It was good meeting you Saturday and interesting to see the other folks and other dogs. I enjoyed walking behind the judges when a senior brace went out.

Thanks again for your help.

Spike

[Spike]

Broke down and bought pronged collars. Work well - both pups (now 10 months old) much better on leads. Even wife is on board. Little pup still wild but now manageable.

Spike

[kninebirddog]

prong collar wonder lead it is all in the timing but what ever works is the most important

[Spike]

All,

This may be old news to some or most of you but I discovered a kind of "trick" that helped me control both my Brits w/o choke-chains or pronged collars. I just use their normal flat collar but run the lead over their left shoulder, under the dog and out in front of the right leg. I have no idea why this works but even my little wild-child that pulled my 7 year-old grand right off his feet a couple of weeks ago, can now be walked by him w/o much trouble. Naturally I learned this by accident (dog got tangled) but, who cares? I'm just happy I discovered it and thought I'd pass it on.

Cheers,
Spike

[DonF]

I will be staying out there with linda McDonald.
I will be happy to show you a few things to help with your wild child if you would like. Look forward to meeting you. Also carl babbs will be judging on sat

K9 was out here for the Britt Futurity and helped a guy get going with a wonder lead. She did a very good job, the guy kept at it and he's got much better control now. I went to Prineville last week to take him some pigeons and see his new loft and he showed off Rudy aq bit for me. She did a great job.

I use the choke chain for obedience. The choke, pinch, german claw and wonder lead will all work depending on how you use them. Trust this, it's not the tool, it's the mechanic. If you get with K9 and she starts you, get a wonder lead and continue with what she shows you, don't give up and fool around with something else.

Hey K9, tell Linda hi for me. She's a really nice lady and I enjoyed the time I got to spend with all of you.

[DonF]

Your wife will change her mind once she walks dog with pinch collar and realizes the dog does it all to themselves - and you suddenly have "power steering!"

We got one from PetSmart that you can put rubber tips on and remove links or add for different sized dogs. Amazing how quick the dogs learn to not tugg on the leash.

Justin

What Buckeye is describing is a german claw collar; it does pinch, brutal looking thing. The pinch collar is leather and has metal points sticking thru the underside. The one's I had came with the points sharp. If you get one with sharp point's, take a file and blunt them a bit. Most gun dog supply places have them but I've never seen one in a pet store. I think Lion Country and Gun Dog Supply both have them. You might check with member, Pariefire and Stoneface too. They have a small supply business going also. Search Dunn's, they were in Tenn but haven't heard about them in years. I got my old pinch collars fron them.

[DonF]

prong collar wonder lead it is all in the timing but what ever works is the most important

Timing is exactly what is important. With the wonder lead, I watched K9 and she tried to keep the lead slack it seemed to me but when the dog payed her no never mind, she'd stop and nudge him back toward where she wanted him. Your gonna find with all the training you do that timing is everything. Using a choke collar for instence, the voive command comes for the correction and is immediately followed by the leash correction. The dog hears a command and it is always followed by a tug on the neck. If on the other hand you give the tug first and then voice command there is no consequence for not obeying the voice command. At some point in the wonder lead program I suspect the voice command for "heel" is introduced. The early part seem's calm the dog down, teach's it to give to the lead and learns it's place. I say seem's because I've only watched it used one time and that was by K9.

[RayGubernat]

Spike -

I am in full agreement that your dogs need to learn to heel quietly by you side and a wonder lead or prong or pinch collar are all excellent tools to teach that. in addition, each of those tools conditikons the dog to the neck as a point of contact for correction, allowing a much more seamless transition to the e-collar in the future.

Fow walking a dog there is another thing you can do with a checkcord and flat collar. It might be a little more convenient for you. If you take your lead or checkcord down the top of the back from the flat collar and then loop the cord arond the dog's wasit and back up under the rope, creating a half hitch on the top of the dog's back. Dogs do not like the pressure on their waist and learn VERY quickly not to pull.

The half hitch when walking, in combination with the wonder lead in the yard or the prong collar(which is what I transition to after the wonder lead), should condition the dog to walk quietly at your side in fairly short order, regardless of where you are walking an who is holding the lead.

Have fun with your youngsters.

RayG

[4dabirds]

All,

This may be old news to some or most of you but I discovered a kind of "trick" that helped me control both my Brits w/o choke-chains or pronged collars. I just use their normal flat collar but run the lead over their left shoulder, under the dog and out in front of the right leg. I have no idea why this works but even my little wild-child that pulled my 7 year-old grand right off his feet a couple of weeks ago, can now be walked by him w/o much trouble. Naturally I learned this by accident (dog got tangled) but, who cares? I'm just happy I discovered it and thought I'd pass it on.

Cheers,
Spike

So let me get this straight, you now have to walk this dog with the leash tangled around it for the rest of the dogs life. This is not training and your level of expectation is very low. I think you perception of slack lead training is a little off base. You are not waiting for the dog to let the lead go slack you are creating a cue for the dog to stop as well as a cue for the dog to move forward. Your walking forward is the cue for the dog to walk forward and a tight lead is is the cue for the dog to stop. What you have now is the tight lead is the cue to make you walk forward wether it is tangled or not. Establishing these cues pulling or not is training .To do this properly you simply never move forward when the lead is taught, and when the dog tightens the lead you stop moving. When you step forward the dog learns that your moving is the cue for the dog to move forward. You have given the dog many repetitions of the dog pulling you forward and have trained this behavior into the dog, so if you chose to use this strategy it will take some time but is doable.