How to use the "Buddy Stick"

[Manitou]

Hi all!

This is a great site... just a little bit addicting though!

I have hunted for over 30 years now and have just started serious bird hunting. Most of my life I have been an avid big game and turkey hunter, with a bit of small game and waterfowl thrown in.
My wife and I invested in a new GSP puppy a couple of weeks ago. She's a real beauty. She does, however, have me wrapped around her little "finger" (pad)

I have invested in a couple of training dvds/videos and figure I will take the most sensible from them and apply it to Maggies' training sessions.

My question is this: How is one to use the "Buddy Stick" in training a bird dog? I have read every bit of information I can dig up about this, but fail to find any details as to when and how to use the stick. I know some of you are firm believers in this technique, and it really seems to be a logical approach, I'm just searching for a bit more detail so that I am confident that I am using it properly. I'm not sure how a person can teach "heel" with an eight-foot piece of PVC. "Whoa" is easier to picture, but it seems that I would need a shorter piece of PVC to accomplish the "heel" training. Does this sound right?

Right now, Maggie is 12 weeks old. I am mostly having fun with her and teaching the basic commands. Started on "sit" also, but steered away from it after reading some theories on this site. She fetches well, is heeling fairly well, and only comes when not distracted by more important things, such as leaves, sticks, chew toys, and airplanes!!! :roll:
Maggie "hunts" hard when in the yard. She snorts a lot of dirt! She will also "zig-zag" nicely when working in front of me. I give her silent hand commands and walk in a zig-zag fashion, like on the Wolter's DVD. Maggie will also point a bird wing on a string and pole shortly, then attempt to pounce on it. I have only done this a few times to get her interested and see her reactions to the quail wing.

Tomorrow, I plan to purchase a few quail. The first I will hobble and let her catch. The second I will neutralize one wing and let her go after it. Finally, the third bird will be at full capacity and I'll have her (Maggie) on a rope. She will not be allowed to catch the third bird. It will fly away after she discovers, and hopefully points it. I read about this method as the first in a series to get a pup excited about the birds and teach them to point and hold. I think "Honey Run Shorthairs" posted this and it sounded logical to me.

Maggie helped me build bird cages today and was very close to me as I used circular saws, drills and staple guns. She did real well. Did not run or hide. Seemed a bit nervous at first, but then was real curious and came too close for my comfort!

By now, any poor person reading this lengthy post has realized that I'm sure proud of my new puppy! I just hope I don't let her down and she turns out to be a good one.

Any and all information/tipswould be greatly appreciated. This "Buddy Stick" has got me intrigued.

Thanks,
Rick

[Yawallac]

Tomorrow, I plan to purchase a few quail. The first I will hobble and let her catch. The second I will neutralize one wing and let her go after it. Finally, the third bird will be at full capacity and I'll have her (Maggie) on a rope. She will not be allowed to catch the third bird. It will fly away after she discovers, and hopefully points it.

I would not use the first two methods unless absolutely necessary to build desire. I would start with "full capacity" birds. Why teach her that she can catch a bird? Let her chase for sure, but don't let her catch her first two birds w/o the bird flying. I will sometimes hobble a bird if the pup shows very little desire or interest, but never before proving to me that it needs that.

I plant a bird, work the pup with a check cord (or a lead at 12 weeks) into the wind until it scents the bird, then whoa it. At 12 weeks my pups don't have a clue what whoa means but they will hear it a lot over the next few years.

At this point it helps to have an assistant to prevent mishaps. But what I try to accomplish is for the pup to realize that it actually did discover something here of great significance. I let my helper kick the grass a little to keep the pups attention and then I have him flush the bird. I still restrain the pup briefly to allow the bird to get into the air and then I turn the pup loose to chase. When the pup has reached a fair distance and completely focused on the bird I fire a blank gun once. If pup then finds the bird and catches it fine. If not that is ok too.

When she has finished her chase I pick the pup up and carry her back to where we were set up. I sweet talk to her a bit and then let her sniff around where the bird was planted. Then I work her into the next bird and repeat the process. Two times per session is plenty. The pup may point the first time and it may not. It may point the second time and it may not. It will learn to point and by not allowing it to capture a hobbled bird will speed that process along.

This is just how I introduce pups to birds and to gun fire. There are probably other ways that work. I simply try to make the experience fun and not over-do-it and to replicate as closely as possible what she will be doing for the next 10 years of her life.

Best of luck.

PS Sorry that I wasn't any help with the buddy stick, but IMO it is W-A-Y to soon for that anyway.

[AHGSP]

Yawallac,

Here is a link to Cindy Stahle's method he described and it works well. If you read the article, there is a "method to the madness".
http://www.uplandjournal.com/departments/gundogs.html
Like anything in training dogs, there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Manitou,

Sorry that I can offer no help on the buddy stick. I'm curious myself and have a basis of understanding on it's use, but not well enough to give you a fair explanation. I use chain gangs, a training table or a barrel for whoa, but the stick would give me another tool in my toolbox for a dog that may not take to one of the other methods.

Remember, your pup is just that, a pup. Don't push too hard too fast, let her be a pup and above all, JUST HAVE FUN for now.

Good Luck and Take Care,

[Wagonmaster]

I read the material on Cindy's website and I like the method, especially the silent part, but not for a 10-13 week old pup. Here is some stuff from a recent article in Shooting Sportsman. It is a group of interviews by George Hickox with some pro trainers. First is David Hughes, who has won 10 Grand National Grouse Championships, more than double anyone else:

SSM: Lots of novice trainers try to discourage their dog from chasing right from the get-go. The thinking goes, I don't want the dog to chase birds whem I'm hunting, so I won't let him chase now. I let my youngsters chase; George and Mike Tracy let their pups chase; you let your young dogs chase. Can you talk about chasing?

D.H.: In my experience, if a dog does not chase, he is lacking in drive and birdiness. If the dog does not chase aggressively, he won't be able to be trained to an advanced level. By allowing the puppy to chase, the youngster will gain confidence and will develop more pointing instincts.

Cover dog trials, which are the kind of trial that Mr. Hughes dominates, are pure hunting wild bird situations. There are no planted birds. Dogs must have a find on grouse or woodcock to win. To do that, they have to go where the birds are, not just run the trail in front of you or the 20 yards on either side. And grouse are the spookiest and most difficult to handle of all the game birds. They are worse at sitting still than rooster pheasants. Point being, Mr. Hughes method is used to develop real bird dogs, dogs that hunt.

Now here is my .02. When you start to seriously train and break a dog, which should wait until it is a year old, there is pressure that goes with it. If the dog is totally buzzed up about birds because it has been allowed to break and chase, you then always have something the dog is excited about to go back to, if pressure brings the dog's style down.

So I would tell you to get that dog into as many birds as you can, as soon as you can. If you are using quail, I would not hobble them or pull wing feathers or anything, unless after a few sessions, the pup is not showing any interest in pursuing them. Only then would I resort to hobbling, or letting the dog have a dead bird to play with. The vast majority of pups at this age, given the chance to discover birds on their own, will succeed with no help.

When the dog does start to make game and goes on point, do nothing, no check cord, no talking to the dog. YOU whoa, stop and stand where you are, stay completely out of it and just watch. Let pup get the feeling of standing and holding a point on its own. If it is from any kind of hunting stock at all, it will figure it out on its own.

With a 12 - 13 week old puppy I would not do anything more. I would not attempt to flush, touch the dog, or anything. Let the pup do it all by itself. When the bird goes or the dog takes it out, let pup do what it wants, iespecially chase. A little bit of "good boy" when it does chase is a good thing.

One other thing you can mix in at this point, but only after you have done some homework, is gunfire. You should buy a child's toy cap pistol and a bunch of caps. Every day when you feed the pup, go to the other side of the house while pup chows down, and fire the cap pistol. Get a little closer every day, until it is obvious the gunfire is not bothering the pup. Then you can move to the next step. Now, when pup finds a bird, roots and chases, you say "good boy" and fire that cap pistol when pup is in full stride after that bird. You can slowly work your way up to a .22 crimp pistol, and then to full blanks. But take your time on that part. You are not in a hurry.

Go buy "Best Way to Train Your Bird Dog," by Bill Tarrant/Delmar Smith. You will find a short discussion in there about this process, called happy timing. Letting em run and letting em find out about birds with no restraints.

Maybe about mid-June, when pup is 6 months old, you can start check cord work, or Buddy Stick work which is the same thing with a push pole instead of a pull cord.

But think of it this way. At 12 weeks, pup is the equivalent of a 2 year old child. More in the development mode than in any training mode. Be really patient, don't hurry, let pup run and have some fun.

When you work with planted birds you are always going to have a few that get caught. That is not a big deal unless it starts happening with some frequency. If and when pup is strong enough to chase and catch when the bird comes down, then maybe think about that check cord.

When I breed, or acquire a new pup, I will have it on birds pointing and chasing by 8 - 10 weeks. We start with a couple of weeks of "wing on a string" just to get them pointing and used to feathers. Then we move to unhobbled untethered planted quail at 10-12 weeks. I like to get them or breed in the spring, so we can do this all summer. We hunt them in the fall. We consider it good if we can have the dog more or less staunch by then, but if it is only 6 or 7 months old it is too early even for that. We impose no expectations that first season about being totally staunch, just having fun. It takes some patience, because they will kick out birds and there will be shots you will not get. But that is going to happen at that age anyway. Again, just be patient. Then the next training season, when pup is a year plus and has seen alot of birds, we will start with yardwork on "whoa," and everything that goes into the breaking process.

[snips]

Right on!!!! I had a long post going right about down this alley on how we start our dogs, then lost it. Glad you put it in words John.

[Wagonmaster]

thanks brenda. have been reading about your succes with your dogs on shorthair.net. sounds like you are having yourself a very good spring.

[Manitou]

Thanks to John, Brenda, Bruce, and Yawalla for all the input.

Yeah, I know Maggie is just a baby right now. My main focus is to teach her about life and to have fun with her . I also want her to know that she is safe and secure. We are doing a lot of socializing with other people, places, and animals.

I'm one of those types that do things 110% when I decide to do it. That is why I'm trying to gather information on the Buddy Stick. I want to be well - versed on the subject BEFORE it is time to use it. As with most endeavors, the preparation is half the fun. I am a sponge right now, trying to learn as much as possible about gun dogs, GSP's, dog first aid/health/nutrition, and training. I figure Maggie is only going to be as good as I myself am trained, and I want her to be the best she can be.

I did not have the opportunity to read these reply posts before taking Maggie out today. I would have heeded your advice if I had. I do, however, think Maggie did awesome. She pointed the first bird from about five feet, and even held her point for quite some time while the bird was running away. I had to convince her to chase it and grab it. She proved to be very soft-mouthed and returned the quail to my hand about a dozen times. She did the same with bird #2, returning it to my hand unharmed each time. These were about 10-20 yard retrieves each time. (She was sure pooped when we arrived back home!) I finally dispatched both theses fellas in the name of good sportsmanship!
They sure were good sports!

I put the third bird to sleep as I had Maggie tied to the truck. She was watching me from under the truck and as soon as I untied her, she went full-bore to where she saw me plant the bird. This was about 35 yards away. When she got to within 15 feet of the bird, it flew... must not have been asleep! My bad. Anyway, Maggie gave chase and chased that flying bird for about forty more yards. It amazes me how observant this little pup is. I've had dogs all my life, some of them very smart ones, and I don't remember ever seeing a dog so developed, focused, and observant at this young age. My wife commented this evening about how she is amazed at how smart and observant Maggie is. Are all GSP's like this?

I will take your advise for future sessions and will let Maggie find her two birds per session and they will not be hindered or hobbled any more. I saw a side of my dog I wasn't sure about until this afternoon, but I sure liked what I saw.

I'm still open for any information on the "Buddy Stick", as I would like to make an informed decision as to it's value when the time comes.

If anybody needs to see a pick-me-up cute puppy pic, I posted a pic of Maggie in the album section under "Puppies".

Thanks all, for your well-received expertise and your consideration in helping the "rookie".

Rick

[snips]

Sounded like a good session for beginnings. The last bird flying off was really perfect too. She`ll find out if you get too close bird is gone, so, not as bad as you thought. I do not like to put birds to sleep for pups, just lightly dizzy or just release them so they will get up when pressured. And, yes, I think most Shorthairs are smart like yours!

[Casper]

I would like to add that you look into some of the seminars given by some of these more well known folks. Some to look into would be seminars by Rick & Ronnie Smith, Dave Walker (I think that is his name), Buddy Smith still puts on seminars apperently viewtopic.php?t=2709. There are others but those are the first off the top of my head. The information you can get by workig with these pro's woudl prove invaluable.

[Casper]

I also just seen there is a video out that teachs how to build and use the buddy stick http://lcsupply.com/store/flashcart.cfm?section=511

Hope I was of some help

[Manitou]

I may have to resort to purchasing the video. I have a while before I get to this stage, so hopefully someone will post.

Thanks again,
Rick