Snake training

[Bossman27]

Does anyone know of any trainers near MN that do a snake course? I.E. training a dog to avoid snakes?

Also, what are your thoughts on the vaccine? I've heard some people say they don't think it works.

[Redfishkilla]

I don't know of any snake clinics in your area, sorry. I've heard the vet tell stories of the vaccine working though. He told me he had six black labs come in rattlesnake bit on opening day of dove season two years ago. The five with the vaccine went home that day, the one without it lived but had a much harder time. It also matters where the dog is hit, if he's hit in a vein or heart, he's got no chance even with the vaccine. I give it to my dogs and put them through the snake training, but I live in Texas with a ton of rattlesnakes. The vaccine is $20 twice a year, not too bad. My two cents.

[jimbo&rooster]

Send em to Indiana. we'll go where there are a few snakes and they will soon find out that if they follow the cloud of dust with a girl screaming on the other end they might catch me..... that ought to give them the idea.

Ive heard good things about the vaccines.

JIm

[gsp3333]

All three of mine have had the vaccine. My vet believes in it. My vet happens to be my neighbor and not just trying to make a buck off me.

[Sapphire]

Thats the first I've heard of the vaccine, sounds promising. I am getting a new pup soon and am nervous about the snakes. In the past my dogs have been very obedient and when I'd see or hear a snake, or see them react to something nearby that I figured wasn't a bird, I could tell them, "out of it" and they'd stay away. Is that the best you can do or do you need to seriously "break" them off snakes.

What methods do the "snake breakers" use? Collars? Beatings with the dead snake? Curious.

[AzDoggin]

Thats the first I've heard of the vaccine, sounds promising. I am getting a new pup soon and am nervous about the snakes. In the past my dogs have been very obedient and when I'd see or hear a snake, or see them react to something nearby that I figured wasn't a bird, I could tell them, "out of it" and they'd stay away. Is that the best you can do or do you need to seriously "break" them off snakes.

What methods do the "snake breakers" use? Collars? Beatings with the dead snake? Curious.

Live snake staked out on a string. Dog with e-collar turned up high. Bring dog on a check cord up from down wind. As soon as he gets a good whiff and you know he's scented the snake, juice him. Repeat one time (if he'll approach it again) and you should be good for the season. One member here (A/C Guy) said that his dogs won't even get out of the truck if they smell snake when out hunting. Apparently the lesson sticks with them and the scent must be pretty powerful.

[AzDoggin]

Send em to Indiana. we'll go where there are a few snakes and they will soon find out that if they follow the cloud of dust with a girl screaming on the other end they might catch me..... that ought to give them the idea.

Ive heard good things about the vaccines.

JIm

Too funny

[kensfishing]

Thats the first I've heard of the vaccine, sounds promising. I am getting a new pup soon and am nervous about the snakes. In the past my dogs have been very obedient and when I'd see or hear a snake, or see them react to something nearby that I figured wasn't a bird, I could tell them, "out of it" and they'd stay away. Is that the best you can do or do you need to seriously "break" them off snakes.

What methods do the "snake breakers" use? Collars? Beatings with the dead snake? Curious.

Live snake staked out on a string. Dog with e-collar turned up high. Bring dog on a check cord up from down wind. As soon as he gets a good whiff and you know he's scented the snake, juice him. Repeat one time (if he'll approach it again) and you should be good for the season. One member here (A/C Guy) said that his dogs won't even get out of the truck if they smell snake when out hunting. Apparently the lesson sticks with them and the scent must be pretty powerful.

Never saw a snake on a string. Snake broke way to many dogs in Az. Never used a string or heard of anyone doing so.

[AzDoggin]

Thats the first I've heard of the vaccine, sounds promising. I am getting a new pup soon and am nervous about the snakes. In the past my dogs have been very obedient and when I'd see or hear a snake, or see them react to something nearby that I figured wasn't a bird, I could tell them, "out of it" and they'd stay away. Is that the best you can do or do you need to seriously "break" them off snakes.

What methods do the "snake breakers" use? Collars? Beatings with the dead snake? Curious.

Live snake staked out on a string. Dog with e-collar turned up high. Bring dog on a check cord up from down wind. As soon as he gets a good whiff and you know he's scented the snake, juice him. Repeat one time (if he'll approach it again) and you should be good for the season. One member here (A/C Guy) said that his dogs won't even get out of the truck if they smell snake when out hunting. Apparently the lesson sticks with them and the scent must be pretty powerful.

Never saw a snake on a string. Snake broke way to many dogs in Az. Never used a string or heard of anyone doing so.

Ken, I think those must be the bad snakes that were put in snake jail by the snake judge.

(at least you know they'll stay put - how did you handle the nasty critters?)

[kensfishing]

We always defanged them. You've got four to five sets of fangs in a Rattler, be careful. If it's hot outside we poured cold water on the ground so the snake would stay put. Also they can not handle a ground temp of 95 degrees, i believe. We killed alot of them learning this trick. Then work the dog with the collar. After that we picked the snake up with tongs and walked toward the dog. If it worked the dog would break your arm with the check cord. But you had better have brass you know what to defang one. It's a rush.

[AzDoggin]

We always defanged them. You've got four to five sets of fangs in a Rattler, be careful. If it's hot outside we poured cold water on the ground so the snake would stay put. Also they can not handle a ground temp of 95 degrees, i believe. We killed alot of them learning this trick. Then work the dog with the collar. After that we picked the snake up with tongs and walked toward the dog. If it worked the dog would break your arm with the check cord. But you had better have brass you know what to defang one. It's a rush.

Not too sure I'm up to the defanging thing. What'd you use, diagonal cutters? I'm not real crazy about getting so up-close and personal. Putting a cord with a little slip not in it around the snake isn't too bad if somebody keeps their boot on it's head, but you may have me on the defanging deal.

[kensfishing]

We defang snakes so the dogs can't get bit. We want the dog to get the real deal of the snake hitting the dog. We'll hemostats most of the time. Like I said you've got to have some brass hanging.

[AzDoggin]

We defang snakes so the dogs can't get bit. We want the dog to get the real deal of the snake hitting the dog. We'll hemostats most of the time. Like I said you've got to have some brass hanging.

Yeah, I'm not sure which would be worse, defanging the dang snake or worrying that your dog might get too close and get bitten. I prefer to keep them further back, but I can see the benefit for the dog of being within striking distance - he might remember it a little better.

[Troy08er]

Can you use gopher snakes for training against rattle snakes? Thanks

[Sapphire]

Someone else told me to put a gopher/bull snake in with the dog for a while... and you dog will not go near a snake afterwards!

might work with some dogs??

[kensfishing]

Can you use gopher snakes for training against rattle snakes? Thanks

NO. They don't have the same smell.

[GUNDOGS]

Send em to Indiana. we'll go where there are a few snakes and they will soon find out that if they follow the cloud of dust with a girl screaming on the other end they might catch me..... that ought to give them the idea.

Ive heard good things about the vaccines.

JIm

So i take it defanging is out of the question then jim !!!....ruth

[nitrex]

Would the vaccine be region specific? It seems like each area of the country would need a different vaccine for different kinds of rattlers?

Nitrex

[AzDoggin]

Would the vaccine be region specific? It seems like each area of the country would need a different vaccine for different kinds of rattlers?

Nitrex

I don't know, but the vets down here sure do push it.

K9 had a very good response to vaccine questions a while back - it was in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=88&t=24493&p=222369&hil ... e+#p222369

She said:

I will stick to snake avoidance

Nothing is a guarantee but
1 it is useless against the Mojave rattler
2 it doesn't prevent death should a dog get bit in a vital zone area
3 Over the years all the dogs that I have seen get bit only required Medical attention cortisone shots for swelling and strong antibiotics for secondary infection..which is the same procedure the dog will require even with the shot so why add an extra 60-90 bucks a year according to there requested shot schedule on their web site as it isn't a yearly booster it is 1st shot 30 days later a 2nd shot and then every 4-6 month boosters to maintain the titer count which supposedly slows the venoms process

http://www.redrockbiologics.com/FAQ.html


How long does protection last? How often should my dog be vaccinated?

The maximum protection generated by vaccination typically becomes available about four to six weeks after the most recent vaccine booster dose. That protection then declines slowly over time. Vaccinated dogs typically receive good protection for about six months after boostering. Depending on the dog, some protection may continue out to a year, or longer.

The first time your dog is vaccinated, we recommend an initial vaccine injection followed by a booster dose about one month later. The recommended subsequent boostering schedule of one, two or three vaccine doses per year depends upon your dog's anticipated exposure to rattlesnakes and the size of your dog.

Most dogs that are exposed to rattlesnakes for less than six months per year will only require a single booster dose for that year. The best time to give that dose is approximately one month before the start of the rattlesnake "season." This category includes dogs who live in roughly the northern half of the United States, or dogs who briefly visit locations where rattlesnakes may be active -- such as during a camping or hunting trip.

If your dog will be in an area where rattlesnakes are active for more than six months per year (roughly the southern half of the United States) we recommend two annual booster doses given four to six months apart. Again, the first booster dose should be given one month before the rattlesnake season begins. The second dose is given approximately half-way through the season.

If your dog is at particular risk of being bitten by a rattlesnake (for example, a search and rescue dog, some hunting dogs or dogs living in a high density rattlesnake area), you should consider using three booster doses per year at four month intervals.

Since resistance to venom depends upon the amount of venom neutralizing antibody available, small dogs (under 25 pounds) are at increased risk of envenomation injury. Because of this, a third dose in the initial sequence, and in subsequent years more frequent boosters (e.g. every four to six months), may be advisable in small dogs to maximize their antibody production for more protection.

Large dogs (over 100 pounds) do not develop as high an antibody level as intermediate-sized dogs in response to the two dose initial sequence. For this reason, large dogs may also benefit from a third dose in the initial sequence, although they do not necessarily require additional annual booster doses to maintain that antibody level.

[kensfishing]

I heard that the Pacific Coast Rattler also has a Nuero toxin. So I don't think it would help with that. There's a snake guy in Calif. that has been doing alot research on these snakes that are taking on a new change. Interesting, it was on tv some time back.

[Reveille75]

i wouldn't be able to walk if I had the cojones it would take to defang a rattler. We shoot the head off a rattler and coil it up in a trail and bring a dog up from down wind. If it's their first time they will invariably go right up to it and sniff. It makes you aware of how vulnerable a dog is without training. When he gets close enough he could get bit, I apply max stimulation. My male gsp absolutely stops when he smells one and alerts us with his reaction. I did my puppy last weekend with a fresh kill and it took after one session. I had a setter hit a few years ago and it was awful. There's always the chance that a dog will encounter a snake from upwind so I use the antivenom as well. It's cheap insurance.
David

[SubMariner]

Would the vaccine be region specific? It seems like each area of the country would need a different vaccine for different kinds of rattlers?

Nitrex

Te vets down here in FL do not recommend it as none of the indigenous venomous snakes were used to produce the vaccine.

We get our snake avoidance training done by a vet about 1.5 hrs from here that specializes in it: he will run a clinic for clubs or you can go to him directly.

[fishvik]

Can you use gopher snakes for training against rattle snakes? Thanks

NO. They don't have the same smell.

I think this is an interesting comment about snake smell and the differences between regions and species of snakes. I say this because I have used bull snakes (gopher snakes, Pituophis melanoleucus) for snake breaking my dogs for the local rattler (Great Basin Western rattlesnake Crotalus viridis lutosus). It has worked fine. One of my dogs even stopped when she encountered a rather cold and docile W. Diamondback in Kansas. But I hear of alot of you guys in the south and southwest saying that bull snakes don't work. Jim Dobbs is shown using a garter snake on his website article on snake breaking and he lives in S. Calif.I believe. So I just wonder if snakes, even the same species, smell different to a dog in different parts of the country.

[kensfishing]

A bull snake has some the same actions as a rattler, but there's a different smell. If I can smell it the dog can smell it better. But I've got dogs that have a natural fear of snakes. It's funny to watch them while trying to snake break them.

[Redfishkilla]

Defanging? Just sew it's mouth shut, I bet that's fun too.