GSP question

[GA1dad]

I read on the AKC website that a GSP with "ANY" patch of black was disqualified. But yet I see many AKC registered dogs that are registered as black,,,,,,,what gives?

Jason

[Ayres]

Disqualified from the standard for conformation. Show ring.

They can still compete in AKC field trials and hunt tests, and can still be registered. Solid black is recognized as part of the conformation standard in Germany.

[Ryan]

I read on the AKC website that a GSP with "ANY" patch of black was disqualified. But yet I see many AKC registered dogs that are registered as black,,,,,,,what gives?

Jason

I thought the same thing. But after talking to a few trainers on here and the help of Phil in chat I found out exactly what Ayres posted.

[original mngsp]

Not only in Germany is black accepted, but nearly everywhere else in the world also.

Often have wondered what makes the GSPCA so much "smarter" than the rest of the world on this issue.

[GA1dad]

OK, now I get it. Thanks guys.

[Greg Jennings]

I don't want to overly complicate the black GSP discussion but in the Vizsla community, national field trials implement Qualify on the Line (QoL).

With QoL, a V with a conformation DQ would not be allowed to run in the national field trial.

People come down on both sides of the issue.

QoL is one of the reasons that I have been gravitating to the GSP community where the "form follows function" idea is more prevalent.

Best,

[QCBirddogs]

I thinkl QOl is a great idea.....but should have some pull the other way around.......take a bird in the show ring.....half those dogs wont even put their nose in the air....MAke whats good for the goose good for the gander!

The GSPCA changed everything abotu the dog not just the color....but yes Black is allowed everywhere else but here......

But it is going to be voted on again this year! Could it bee some of the show folks are just nervous!? Black is a much more stunning color IMHO....might make the dogs stand out a bit more in the ring as it does in the field as well!

Phil
REO

[Buckeye_V]

Ah, I see a lot clearer now. It doesn't surprise me though.

[AHGSP]

For the record:

The GSPCA Membership will be voting in April to allow Black as part of the standard. If your not a member of the GSPCA and are interested in this issue, JOIN and VOTE!

[AHGSP]

D@#$ Phil, I just saw that you had already covered that! I bet I know where you and Gayla stand on this issue

Yea, the show folks that have been honest with me say, "all else being conformationally equal, the Black Mould's will win everytime"!

[Wagonmaster]

Well, Phil, here is one we are on the same side of.

Those dogs are really nice looking, and it is in the standard in the rest of the world. It is not the AKC, frankly, it is the GSPCA. And it is probably incorrect to say that they have been wrongheaded. The fact is that when that standard was written, black dogs had nearly disappeared from the face of the earth due to WW II and everything going on in Germany before and after. The standard as written at the time, picked up on what people thought the dog should look like. Since then the standard has changed in many places, it is a learning process. Glad to see the US/GSPCA is finally getting around to it. Hope it goes through.

Interesting too, that with all the arguments about DK's being a different breed from the GSP, and the American GSP being a mongrel with pointer stuck in it, that the black coat color preserved in Germany is the direct result of the injection of black coated pointer into the breed in the early 1900's. Those black and black mould dogs are the direct descendants of that pointer breeding. And of course, so are alot of other shorthairs.

[Ryan]

I thinkl QOl is a great idea.....but should have some pull the other way around.......take a bird in the show ring.....half those dogs wont even put their nose in the air....MAke whats good for the goose good for the gander!

The GSPCA changed everything abotu the dog not just the color....but yes Black is allowed everywhere else but here......

But it is going to be voted on again this year! Could it bee some of the show folks are just nervous!? Black is a much more stunning color IMHO....might make the dogs stand out a bit more in the ring as it does in the field as well!

Phil
REO

Ha could you imagine that. Hide a chukar or quail on the yellow boxes and see how many dogs lock up as they run by. Then you will be able to tell who is on GDF because they would drop the lead and kick up the bird.

[Margaret]

Wagonmaster"]
Well, Phil, here is one we are on the same side of.
The fact is that when that standard was written, black dogs had nearly disappeared from the face of the earth due to WW II and everything going on in Germany before and after. The standard as written at the time, picked up on what people thought the dog should look like.

Sorry but this is wrong, particularly your last sentence.

Margaret

[rschuster54303`]

Margret,

If it is wrong would you elaborate?

I find the black marking issue interesting, I prefer the liver/white look and I believe I am in the monority on this. But I do find the topic interesting.

If you have some knowledge in this reagard please share it, just stateing it is wrong doesn't help me.

Regards,

Rob

[Wagonmaster]

We are talking about the US standard and i therefore had in mind the existence or lack of it, of black coated dogs in the US. Did you have another standard in mind?

[original mngsp]

I agree with Rob, I'm kinda partial to the white/liver look but still think black is very striking.

I have seen some darn decent black gsp dogs in the field that were put together very nicely (from my limited confirmation understanding). Maybe the fear of the black dog in the show ring is what drives the standard, who knows.

FYI here is a picture of my dogs daddy for reviewing a nicely put together, hard field dog that is black.

[Wagonmaster]

Well, I don't see anything from Margaret. Let me put up what I know, or have read rather, because I was not around in the 1930's or 40's.

The breed in the U.S. had three "hotspots," that is places where it was first imported. A Dr. Thornton imported the first dogs in the very early 30's, to Montana. There were a few dogs brought into Nebraska very shortly after. And then the breed was brought to the Minnesota-Wisconsin area. The kernel for the GSPCA was formed here, in Minneapolis, by a group led by a man named Jack Shattuck (we have a college prep school here named for him, but that is a different story). The GSPCA was formed in 1945, after a first abortive attempt in the early 40's.

As in interesting footnote, the first GSPCA field trial was held in Anoka, Minnesota, about 20 miles from my house. The first NGSPA trial was held in Solon Springs, WI, on the grounds that have hosted the US Chicken Championship for many decades.

The first US standard for the GSP was approved by the AKC in 1946. It was copied from the then-existing German standard, with some changes. On coat color, the 1946 standard provided:

"Solid liver, liver and white spotted, liver and white spotted and ticked, liver and white ticked, liver roan. Any colors other than liver and white (grey white) are not permitted. Faults: Black coat or tri-colored."

So since the US standard was copied from the existing German standard, we need to look to see what was going on in Germany at the time.

Not to go too deeply into ancient history, blacks were kept in a separate studbook in Germany until 1934, and then incorporated into the main German studbook. Why it is that the 1946 US standard, which copied the German standard, did not include blacks is a little bit of a historical mystery. But remember, this was 1946, the war had just ended, and German records were not in the best of shape.

What appears to have happened, according to Byrne in Der Deutsch Kurzhaar, is that the German standard that was copied in the US was a German standard from the 1930's, which did not allow blacks (they were considered a separate breed and in a different studbook at that time). Here is Byrne's material:

"Black is not allowed in the American Standard, and the colour is a disqualification... . I do not know why this is the case, for the US Standard was set in 1946, long after blacks were included in the German Stud Books. The first US show titles were awarded in 1936, however, so if a translation of the German Standard in use at that time was used, both then and ten years later when the AKC officially accepted the GSPCA Standard, black would not have been included. Seiger & von Dewitz Colpin (1951) reprint the German Standard without the inclusion of black, so perhaps it was not until the 1976 revision of the German Standard that the colour was specifically included."

Another thing was going on with black coated dogs during the pre-war and WW II period in Germany, however. Byrne has this to say:

"During the time of the fascist government in Germany, there was a deliberate policy of destruction of "whites", no doubt with the aim or removing them from the breed. This policy was instituted by Hitler's deputy, Herr Goering, a very powerful figure who had a particular interest in hunting and introduced new laws governing the use, assessment, and breeding of all hunting-dog breeds."

Elsewhere in her book, she states that the same fate was meted out to black dogs, the "camoflage" liver roan patterns being favored by Goering. Also, in the end of the war, many kennel owners were forced to abandon their dogs, leaving the kennel doors open so they could fend for themselves. Thus, for a variety of reasons, there were not alot of black's left anywhere, at least not in German dominated wartime Europe, or in the US. The vast majority of dogs imported into the US following the war, were liver roan dogs. White is recessive, and therefore survived to crop up in subsequent litters from liver roan dogs. Also, whites were imported from Denmark. But black is dominant, the net effect being that it is easy to "rub out" black by simply not breeding black dogs. Thus, there were not alot of black dogs around in the US during or after the war, Goering having seen to it that not many existed during that time period. So the Americans who wrote the first breed standard, omitting black, had no reason to think that was wrong.

This is not meant to suggest in any way that black-coated dogs are not or should not be part of the breed. Rather, to explain why it was that the black coat was omitted from the original US standard.

[pear]

Great info John. I'd read that before in Byrne's Book, but had not really remembered until your refresher. Thanks Again..."pear"

[original mngsp]

John

I knew the first AKC GSPCA trial was held in Anoka, I believe 1944 or maybe 1945. I had inquired with the AKC once about the results of this trial but they couldn't tell me anything. I'm sure if I would have pushed harder someone there could have gotten me the results. I think it would be nice to know, do you have any knowledge of this? Or where in Anoka this was held since it is so close to both of us.

I think this is one of the greatest problems faced by the GSPC of Minnesota, HISTORY!!! I don't think we have a record of DOY awards much less the complete history of the dogs, people, and events that have occured since our existence. I know when I came aboard I knew nothing of Gary Nehring and Ammertals Boss Ranger. Is there anyway we can recontruct the history of the club and document it so future members can get an idea of the rich history of the club and the early GSP's in this area that have affected the breed.

What year was that NGSPA trial held at Solon? That is one of the neatest places I have ever been. The feeling is confirmed when you read of and see pictures in the Field of trials in the 30's and 40's. The ones with the winners in front of the stables just like is done today.

[GA1dad]

Good info!!! Answers my question!!!
Jason

[Margaret]

We are talking about the US standard and i therefore had in mind the existence or lack of it, of black coated dogs in the US. Did you have another standard in mind?

Didn't read that way John

Marg

[Wagonmaster]

Sorry, Margaret. Not meaning to pick a fight. We here in the US often do not have the world perspective that others do in other countries. We just start talking about something, and of course we know we are talking about the US, but we do not make that clear. Also the problem with trying to say in three lines what really needs some explanation. But then Janet tells me my posts are too long so I try to keep it short.

Our sincere apologies.

But am I close to correct? Like I said, I was not around then so this is just what I have read. And I assume it is the result of some inquiry and research by Ms. Byrne and Ms. Maxwell, but others such as you may have found better info.

On the Goering thing though, I have found some independent European sources, particularily one Greek website (that you have to translate from Cyrillic) that says the white dogs were put down on Goering's orders. Ms. Byrne says she believes the blacks were also.

Chris, the book is at the office. I believe that material comes from Maxwell. I will email it to you any further info I can find in it. There is a teeny bit more info. about the Anoka trial, but not much. They do not give the exact spot or the results. However, I recognized a couple of the names from the GSPCA founders groups, as some of the "movers and shakers" who lived in the Crocus Hill area in St. Paul. They had a big hunting club over there that included the owners of the old Brown and Bigelow (the Ward family) and others, some of whose sons I went to high school with (not at Shattuck). I am sure someone in one of those families, kept records. They literally are St. Paul history.

The year after Gary Nehring won the NFC title with Ranger, John Baillie won the NAFC with Cedar's Pumpkin, and then the year after that John took third I believe, with Pumpkin. I kept my horse at John's place in Andover, along with John, his brother Dave, and Gary Pihlstrom. Gary lives somewhere near me. I see his truck every once in awhile, still with the RANGER license plate.

I do not remember where I read the Solon comment. Don Kidd (NGSPA President) will tell you it is true. Don is so old, he was probably there. (You can tell him I said that. ) There is a detailed history up on the www.birddogposse.org website, written by Don, and it may be in there. It may be up on the new www.ngspa.org website also.

[Wagonmaster]

Chris, I checked the NGSPA material that Don wrote, and it has a different site for the first NGSPA trial, so I am misremembering what Don sent me. I have an email from him at the office, I will send it.

Here is a rough translation of the Greek website:

"Characteristic is the example of general Goering of narrow collaborator of Hitler which in 1940 as person in charge of race required is disappearred white, the black and (something? solid liver I think) coffee colour from the Kurzhaar because as it believed he was been very visible in the forest from the wild animals. Fortunately this colours accomplished they are rescued grace in the insistence of Dr Hegemann of founder of (something?) Hege-Haus."


The site is http://www.kurzhaar.gr/IstorikiAnadromi.asp and you can run it through the translator at http://babelfish.altavista.com/

[QCBirddogs]

There were actually three stud books.....One being the obvious, the second, is the black dogs and the third was the GREY dogs.

No-one really knows the reason Weims were in the mix.

THe reason Black had its own stud book in the early 20's was from the influence of the Arkwright Pointer. In '34 they were entered into one book. The system of seprate registrations wad abandoned and blacks dogs were registered as DK's.

But blacks were in the German standard before the American standard was written. To this day there is still only speculation as to why they were not included into the American standard.

As another footnote. The liver and white offspring of the black and black and white dogs were entered into the regular studbook from the get go. So the separation was based purely on color. (There are caveats to this but not relevant to the discussion).

As far as using this instance of the infusion of a pointer line to argue against those who outcry against it now...is apples and oranges. This outcross was done with the full knowledge of the breed club and for a specific purpose. The DK was a young breed at the time and not yet totally "fixed" genetically. It is the same way any breed is created. It just so happens that somebody wrote it down and we have historical record to critique nowadays. You must also be careful when equating the generic word "pointer" with the breed English Pointer when reading historical documents. It isn't always the same thing.

Hege-haus did revive some of the colors nearly lost, but they don't get all the credit as some other prominent kennels did their own work as well. Imagine how you would feel if our own government dictated such a thing and suddenly you had to put half your kennel down. The German breeders felt no differently. I had the pleasure of spending time with some old German DK fellows who nearly had tears in their eyes describing how they felt after the Berlin wall fell and they had their first international show where East once again met West. They saw again the dogs from lines that had been smuggled out of the country or across the wall, risking their lives to do so. They had spent many years not knowing what had happened to their or their family's beloved dogs. Many others hid their dogs in basements, attics and remote places. Some Germans were nearly starving because of war rationing but there was always some for the dogs.

Phil
REO

[Margaret]

Wagonmaster"]Sorry, Margaret. Not meaning to pick a fight. We here in the US often do not have the world perspective that others do in other countries. We just start talking about something, and of course we know we are talking about the US, but we do not make that clear. Also the problem with trying to say in three lines what really needs some explanation. But then Janet tells me my posts are too long so I try to keep it short.

Our sincere apologies.

But am I close to correct? Like I said, I was not around then so this is just what I have read. And I assume it is the result of some inquiry and research by Ms. Byrne and Ms. Maxwell, but others such as you may have found better info.

That's OK John, I have been out with the dogs most of the weekend and not on the computer much.

Whilst I feel Georgina wrote the very best book she could, she is not German, and until we get the information from the "horses mouth" we can only surmise about the white & black's.

Germany is connected to other European countries and DK went to many places and bred to mother country standard, so though while the breeding was severely restricted during the war it still went on, and the testing of litters post war kept the standard sound. It was not a colour question (re blacks) it was the infusion of extra Pointer and the potential tracking/water problems that ended them up sidelined in the studbook.

Incidently & OT, whilst in Germany a few months ago there was plenty of room for ranging dogs, the area I was in was fields of maize and grass divided by ditches and copses of trees and no fences.
Videos of tests zoom up dogs & also zoom up the background so any roads and traffic look a heck of a lot closer than what they in fact are.

PPS - I have a book called "the Truth About Sporting Dogs" by C. Bede Maxwell, but it is giving height to my modem. Does anyone else have this book?

Marg

[Margaret]

As another footnote. The liver and white offspring of the black and black and white dogs were entered into the regular studbook from the get go. So the separation was based purely on color. (There are caveats to this but not relevant to the discussion).

I've wondered about that, and it rather stuffs up my theory doesn't it

Aw heck! I've just destroyed my dinner. I think I"ve got rid of most of the burnty bits.

Anyway, maybe the l&w they considered threw to the original pre Pointer cross? Until an actual German historian of the breed give this information we don't know, and they don't care that we don't know.

Marg

[birddog]

You must also be careful when equating the generic word "pointer" with the breed English Pointer when reading historical documents. It isn't always the same thing.

Sorry, but there is no such breed as an English Pointer. The papers state Pointer only.

[QCBirddogs]

Well, how about "pointer of English origin" then? See what I mean about semantics? The point being that we always view a word and put it into the context of what we know now in modern times. "Pointer" in many of the history books was a generic term and there were many different kinds. It was not a reference to a breed as we define it now.

[Margaret]

You must also be careful when equating the generic word "pointer" with the breed English Pointer when reading historical documents. It isn't always the same thing.

Sorry, but there is no such breed as an English Pointer. The papers state Pointer only.

I think in this context it differentiates between the American field Pointer.

Marg

[Margaret]

Well, how about "pointer of English origin" then? See what I mean about semantics? The point being that we always view a word and put it into the context of what we know now in modern times. "Pointer" in many of the history books was a generic term and there were many different kinds. It was not a reference to a breed as we define it now.

Right. The DK had in background Old Spanish Pointer, but
I'm not sure about Artus Sand (?) who just may have had English Pointer behind him. Book not handy.

Marg

[birddog]

There is no registry in the US including, AKC, or FDSB that register the Pointer as an English Pointer.

I think the word english was tacked on to the Pointer to distinguish the difference between the English Setter, with the long coat, and started calling the Pointer, english Pointer, the one with the short coat
The word english should not be capitalized when referring to the Pointer.

I owned this cadilac of bird dogs for many years and never did I receive a registration that called the Pointer, an English Pointer There is no such breed.

I am open to learn but it would take a registration certificate stating the breed of dog is an Engish Pointer to convience me.

[Kurzhaar]

The FCI standard calls it an "English Pointer"

Jim

[birddog]

A discription of a standard is not a registry. That could be in error, the same error as those advertizing Pointers as English Pointers.

If I am wrong, I stand corrected. Even though I am not from MO. you will have to show me.

Could you give us a link to the FCI?

[Kurzhaar]

http://www.fci.be/uploaded_files/001gb98_en.doc

[QCBirddogs]

Birddog,

Do you understand that you are exactly making my inital point? I am not arguing with you over what the AKC calls the breed. I am trying to illustrate that in other places in the world, and in historical writings about breeds and origins of breeds that the use of the word "pointer" does not always equate with the AKC definition of the breed "Pointer" as we know him today! Specifically, the English Pointer. The pointer of English origin as to differentiate him from pointers originating in other countries. English, not as a title but as a descriptive term.

Gayla

[Dave Quindt]

Section 2.1
http://www.fci.be/nomenclatures_detail. ... ile=group7


Also, the UKC defines the breed as the English Pointer:
http://www.ukcdogs.com/RegBreedGroups.htm

NSTRA defines the breed as the English Pointer as well. They are not a registry, yet.

[birddog]

Why add the word english to the breed name Pointer? A Pointer is a registered breed not only with the AKC but also with FDSB. They are not registered as English Pointers with either of these registries. I am not suggesting that the breed was not originated in Great Britian I am only stating we call them and they are registered as Pointers in all US registries. Why start calling and selling them as English Pointers? Is it because some don't know what a real Pointer is? Take a look at Coop and Cowboy. Now those two are what I call real Pointers.


As for the FCI: Their heading states ENGLISH POINTERS which I read as including all their pointing breeds in their country.

Maybe I am taking this to seriously but when I owned them I took offence when people referred to them as English Pointers.

What say all you Pointer owners?

[Yawallac]

EP doesn't bother me. I only take offense when they call them Dalmatians!

[Casper]

From what little I know is non dog people refer to pointer in a general term ie: any dog that points. SO when refering them to someone that knows little or nothing about them we term them as english pointer to ease there confusion and narrow the type of dog down

[Ayres]

My dog is registered as a vizsla, but not as a Hungarian vizsla. Many V owners still say "Hungarian vizsla" as a measure of showing the breed's origins though.

Right or wrong?



(And, as a side note, you actually do capitalize the E in English. This is because it is a descriptive term referencing the country of England. See: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=english )

[Wagonmaster]

Janet-

You are exactly correct. The dog is a Pointer. It requires no asterisk, footnote, qualifier or adjective.

Some people can argue incessantly over what a breed should be called. I read the other day that the first effort to start the GSPCA was stalled in the 1940's because the AKC did not like the name that was proposed. There are two sides in the Small Muensterlander breed who will argue with each other into eternity over whether the SM should have a Vorstehunde (Pointer) in the name or not.

In any event, you call it a Pointer. Those of us who know the dog, will know which one you are talking about.