Need Help Training my GSP to Point...

[kmc123]

my 15 month old GSP is very birdy, retrieves to hand but is too revved or excited to point. I can't tell when she is scenting the bird as she gives no sign until she tries to catch it. She will flash point field mice but not birds...any suggestions?

[kmc123]

OK. That may work (launchers-I do use the half hitch around her flank with the check cord already) but I still can't tell when she winds the planted bird. I've trained three other dogs but none were GSPs.
She caught some early birds that I let her get too close on 'cause she never indicated she was on the scent...She is smart, wild about birds but not very biddable...She may be more dog than I am trainer but I did have and trained Brittanies who, at least, acted like pointing was something instinctual and not something I had to train them to do..

[larry]

Use launchers with pigeons. Put flags by the launchers so you can see the location. As soon as dog is in area of the flags pop the launcher. Eventually the dog should become more cawsus and begin to indicate when it has scent. When indicating scent pop the launcher. Eventually dog should begin to point, once pointing if the dog takes a step pop the launcher, dog should begin to hold longer,

[tailcrackin]

Dog needs to learn how on its table, not ours. Launchers and gimmicks at this point wont do a thing but help the dog learn that dad is controlling the birds actions. You start making this dog cautious, and we will be chiming in helping him figure out why the dog might be flagging........or getting sticky and pointing everything. You keep it between the dog and bird, and the dog will learn a whole lot more. Thanks Jonesy

[Don]

15 mos old, get the launcher's. Remote launcher's. I would be willing to bet that I could have that dog starting to point in under 1/2 hr. Had a three yr old in here last summer. Dog was given to the guy because they said it had to much prey drive to point. Oh really! About 20 min later the dog was pointing. Remember with the launcher you must act like a wild bird. That dog get's close, doesn't matter if it makes game or not the bird goes, no second chances. You never wait to see what the dog is going to do, you never give it just one more step, no quarter! Now you also have to do all your part. That mean's not only acting like a wild bird but you have to be fully aware of exactly where the bird is and what the wind is doing. Don't use flags to mark the launcher. Before you know it the dog will go to the flags and quit using it's nose. Keep the field small and use land mark's to spot the launcher's. I have a small field that I mow just for what you are needing. There is cover and there is mowed grass. Two things happen. You know exactly where the launcher is and the dog only find's birds in cover. Teach's the dog to go to cover. Carry a small bottle of baby powder, talic or something similar, constently check the wind! Know what it is doing, don't guess!

Couple years ago the same thing happened with a wirehair a guy brought over. Less than 1/2 hr the dog was started pointing! Keep in mind, both these dogs were started pointing. at that point you have to continue your end to keep the dog going in the right direction. Always keep in mind, a wild bird will never give the dog a second chance; neither do you! Not one half step, not a bat of an eyelash, not a deep breath.

I took Glenn out with Duke and Duke had never pointed a bird. That day he pointed the eighth bird I put down for him. Never underestimate the worth of the remote controlled trap when used right.

[doco]

I'm with Don. Definitely launchers. The only thing he left out, make sure you get great flying birds. The last thing you want is for him to continue catching birds. One bad bird can set you back tons. I've watched launchers stop the worst dogs in their tracks with in 1/2 hour. Don is right on the money. Don't over do it. One to two birds a day is plenty. The dog needs time to think about what is going on. Just things I've learned and seen with my mentor over the last 3 years. Doesn't sound like a lot of time, but its has been with over 30 dogs from never seeing a bird to pointing for derby stakes.

[tailcrackin]

So, if you have good flying birds, why do you feel you need to work the dog with launchers.
The main reason why a dog doesnt point, is because an over abundance of chase is, or has been allowed, so in the dogs world, why point when I dont have to, I am gonna get to chase here in a bit anyway. Put a checkcord on the dog and fairly eliminate the chase, and the dogs whole plan of options is changed.........its only option is to stand an watch it fly.
There isnt a time set on dog fixing or working, every dog is different, we work on the individual dog table, and things will work and show alot clearer, in dogs eyes, and ours.

So, I will ask you, what are ya gonna do when things mess up with the traps? What will your options be? What if the trap doesnt release, or gets hung up?
Well this will suck, because the dog is prolly gonna blasted by the trap and or the bird. So, noooooooowwwww we got 2 new additional probs, dogs wanting to blink the traps and the bird.........it doesnt know what just smacked it upside the head, so it will now leave both alone, so it doesnt happen again. The more it stays on the dogs table the better the dog will learn. Everything with dogs happens for a reason, positive or negative, its for a reason. A person can not garantee, that the man made tools are gonna work precisely, or our timing will be, that can be a risk at all times. Thanks Jonesy

[Don]

I'm with Don. Definitely launchers. The only thing he left out, make sure you get great flying birds. The last thing you want is for him to continue catching birds. One bad bird can set you back tons. I've watched launchers stop the worst dogs in their tracks with in 1/2 hour. Don is right on the money. Don't over do it. One to two birds a day is plenty. The dog needs time to think about what is going on. Just things I've learned and seen with my mentor over the last 3 years. Doesn't sound like a lot of time, but its has been with over 30 dogs from never seeing a bird to pointing for derby stakes.

Absolutely on the birds. I never put anything in a launcher other than a pigeon. They might monly fly to the closest phone pole or tree but they won't set back on the ground.

[Don]

So, if you have good flying birds, why do you feel you need to work the dog with launchers.
The main reason why a dog doesnt point, is because an over abundance of chase is, or has been allowed, so in the dogs world, why point when I dont have to, I am gonna get to chase here in a bit anyway. Put a checkcord on the dog and fairly eliminate the chase, and the dogs whole plan of options is changed.........its only option is to stand an watch it fly.
There isnt a time set on dog fixing or working, every dog is different, we work on the individual dog table, and things will work and show alot clearer, in dogs eyes, and ours.

So, I will ask you, what are ya gonna do when things mess up with the traps? What will your options be? What if the trap doesnt release, or gets hung up?
Well this will suck, because the dog is prolly gonna blasted by the trap and or the bird. So, noooooooowwwww we got 2 new additional probs, dogs wanting to blink the traps and the bird.........it doesnt know what just smacked it upside the head, so it will now leave both alone, so it doesnt happen again. The more it stays on the dogs table the better the dog will learn. Everything with dogs happens for a reason, positive or negative, its for a reason. A person can not garantee, that the man made tools are gonna work precisely, or our timing will be, that can be a risk at all times. Thanks Jonesy

I think it's a given that the traps need to be in good order and should be checked before use. Even then something could go wrong. One mistake will not ruin the dog. The need for good flying birds is so when the bird is launched it does not set back down withing reach of the dog. That's why I only use pigeons. I think pigeons in a trap are far superior to even good flying game farm birds. Even those don't act like a wild bird and what I sure don't want with a young dog is a bird that walks up to say hi! I never cc a dog into a bird anymore, much more real to use the remote and make the bird in it act wild as possible. Funny thing. Most hunter's, even if they don't train, know more about how a wild bird act's than a pen raised bird of the same species. There was a time when I did just what Dave is suggesting, it does work! I just believe that the remote trap has changed that for the better.

[bwjohn]

you have to be in control of the situation, do not let the dog run free during the training session. Have it on a check cord and work the dog on the traps.


Scenario: have the launcher or two set up with the wind blowing directly south (doesn't matter what direction), you approach the launcher from the east or west with dog on cc. As soon as you see the dog wind or change direction toward the bird launch it and hold on. Keep him/her there until they calm down. Move on to the next bird. How far away your are from the launcher depends on you dog. I would start farther away and keep making passes 5 yds closer until he/she scents the birds. Shouldn't take to long until they point.

but you have to be in control, not let the dog run loose at this point. you maybe a while away from that. Also, so of the problems you mentioned, the launcher not going off etc, hope you have a friend to train with. That can make a lot of those situations easier.

brandon

[Don]

My dog's drag a cc, they run loose. By putting pigeons in the launcher, you insure they won't catch the bird. The dog will learn it can't catch the bird because it can't. What they will do is come back looking for another. You control the situation by controling the bird. This game is between the dog and the bird. Be cautious of over training. Take yourself out, to the dog your a spectator. You control the whole situation then.There is no need at this point to keep the dog from chasing, none. Take that out later in the yard when the dog is standing it's birds properly.

Situation: You always stop the dog from chasing, the dog knows full well that the game is over when the bird is found, Dog goes soft on point, can't hold wild birds. There's several ways of taking out the chase, that come's later. The only thing your teaching the dog right now is that it's movement cause's the bird top leave. That the dog can't catch it is a side that works with the pigeon. Refine it later in the yard.

[tailcrackin]

But here is where the training aspect for the fix is getting missed. First of all there isnt much reason why dogs arent pointing, at whatever age. Now, with one that isnt, the traps arent good for it, because it is a man made gimmick in the dogs eyes, that is controlled by man. When a dog isnt pointing and is just rooting up the bird, that is gonna revolve around doing, or wanting to chase. So, when we eliminate the chase, that is the start on things, but also when you set the dog up without traps, it gets on the dogs head........that Dad/Mom hasnt got anything to do with it flying.........it is me(the dog).
When you set things up on dogs table, I dont care if the dog can see the bird, I want it to attempt to put it in the air. It is gonna make the bird fly, and is gonna want to make the bird fly, so help it, by steering the cord. The check cord is not gonna allow the chase, it will get enough to bump the bird and that is it.....so we are slowly getting in its head on its options, when you eliminate the chase fairly, its only option is the point.
But, the key to it all, is that the dog is doing the pointing itself, its doing it because it wants to, not because it is forced to, or has to. This is where the traps or launchers could or would later come into place. See what I mean, there isnt any option for the dog to have except for standing after te flush. The table is set, 1 bird, 1 dog, and 1 checkcord. The dog is presented its table, and given the option to do what it wants, without our help to make its decision, we guide it into our desired reponse, which is to point the bird. The gimmicks can kick in later when the dogs brain is back in check. This make sense better? Thanks Jonesy

[tailcrackin]

The dog wont go soft on point if it stays on its table, along with handlers mouth being shut. It is all the dogs options on how it wants to handle this situation. The dog isnt gonna ever hunt in the yard why work it there, help it learn in the field, teach it once instaed of twice or more. The simplier you keep it the simplier it will stay. Thanks Jonesy

[Don]

Dave, can you tell me how the dog figures out the trap is a man made gimmick that is being controlled by man? And if it can figure it out then it must also figure out that the only thing stopping the chase with the check cord is the man and the gimmick called a check cord. At bthis point I am not talking about taking out the chase but rather teaching the dog that is his movement causing the bird to fly. That dog want's the bird and the only reason it doesn't point is because it has no idea what is causing the bird to fly. How do you think so many dogs have made bird dogs by doing nothing but running on wild birds? Imagine if the handler of those dogs shot every bird he could weather the dog did it right or not. Not pretty! I am certain what you are saying will work, I did the same thing pre traps. remote traps changed all that for me. Check cord is a wonderfull tool, I'd never be without one. Let's agree to disagree.

BTW, Dave Walker is solidly in your corner. He absolutely hates traps! Least he did when I knew him years ago.

[tailcrackin]

can you tell me how the dog figures out the trap is a man made gimmick that is being controlled by man

The sound, smell, and exspecially the timing on the release.....even the vision of the dog and seing the black box.

it must also figure out that the only thing stopping the chase with the check cord is the man and the gimmick called a check cord

But, when you have spent time with the dog....in general, it learns that the check cord helps him and you work together as a team, when a dog is at the end of the cord while doing anything, it isnt doing one thing for you, its all about him, most time they are trying to figure out a way to get away from the cord, so they can do things how they want, and not be guided by us.

That dog want's the bird and the only reason it doesn't point is because it has no idea what is causing the bird to fly

That is where, what I have been trying to explain, will show. We arent rough with the cord in anyway, we give the dog the option, hit the end and go know futher, or stand and point. They put the bird up for the chase, the rush of trying to get ahold of whats flying in front of me. I know you have seen where I have said, "be fair to the dog, and it will be fair to you" the check cord isnt a forcing tool, or a make it happen tool. Its like power steering, you help show and guide the dog which way, or how to act in this situation, to be successful. If I have a dog that is acting a fool and doing everything for itself in the field, flip flopping, trying to get away whatever......I will walk it out in the middle, and stand an turn myself an let it see the birds fly. And me and it are gonna do things different today, wont be any birdwork, cause the dogs head isnt into it. He isnt thinking for us, he is thinking for him. That will make things harder, cause we are working. So get him on tract.

Now, my point has been missed, or not understood. When you do this style of fix, with a dog non-pointing...like a said a post or so ago, 1dog, 1 bird, 1checkcord. A dog is a creature of habit, which are seeing with the problem we are straightening out. You have everything on the dogs table, I dont care if he sees the bird at first, heck I want him to.....he is gonna rip it outta there anyway.
Now, we give it the option, he can point and stand ther like a gentleman, or it can put it in the air, and stand there like a gentleman. Before long, he will realize the chase is gone....(for now). So his only option is to stand there and point.
The way in doing this is to not allow the chase, give him enough cord to get in trouble, and no more....he will go to side, back an forth, flip flop, do everything in his possible way to get away and run.....but once you are in his head and he gives, you will watch him at end of cord, and he will go......whew, and stand. Once you get the give in breath, it will start coming together. When he starts pointing again, then we allow some chase, just not hogwild, like it was.
Never once did I say I didnt like traps, I do and use them alot, just not for this fix. You have to have an open mind to working dogs, and exspecially fixing dogs. Everything happens for a reason, why is this reason.....I wanna chase. So, be fair and help him eliminate his options, and the point will come back, or start. Dogs are alot different now, than they were heck 5 years ago, but exspecially back 10 years ago, or more. This make a little more sense now, you teach him how to act, by keeping it on its table, and staying simple. I promise you, a whole lot more, by both of you will be learned. Thanks Jonesy

[4dabirds]

it seems to me that all of these solutions rely on a correction with the check cord or a dependence on the loose bird not being caught by the dog. If you teach your dog to whoa then you can bring the dog in on a check cord to the launcher, command whoa ,launch bird do this first with no scent.The dog learns that whoa produces a bird . After the dog is consistent you can introduce the same drill with the dog entering the scent cone from the side when the dog turns in whoa, launch bird. The dog learns scent means whoa whoa means bird. He only gets to see a bird if he stops he will make this association its guaranteed. If you tether the birds to the launcher and whoa him out of range of the tether he can never catch a bird you have guaranteed the outcome. There is no need for any correction. Also use a scent bird 10 to 15 yards from the launcher, this ensures the dog wont get a negative association with the launcher. Allowing your dog to chase wild birds may get him to realize his effort is fruitless but it may also give him the association that chasing is fun and if he does catch a bird it will solidify the behavior. This should be good for at least 10 people to disagree with me but I can tell you it worked for my dog and it has no negative consequences. The jut let the dog hunt paradigm does not work for every dog but this will.

[redman25]

I have the Perfection Kennels perfect start dvds and they do the check cord together with the launchers. They launch as soon as the dog shows scent, and they have dogs from 4 months to well over a year old that have never seen a bird and are running in, pointing solid within a few birds. It's amazing to watch. They have launchers malfunction during training, and the checkcord is there to prevent a wreck. I'm brand new to this, and it seems that everyone has a different way of doing things, but it works. My gsp pup didn't show scent before running in either, luckily he had a very strong pointing instinct from the start, but he crowded the birds BAD. The launcher fixed it within 2 birds. I don't have access to many wild birds and even if I did I don't want my dog crowding them. The guys on here are FULL of knowledge, take it all in and choose what makes the most sense for your situation. You're the one who has to deal with the result, right?

[jimbo&rooster]

Ok guys I accidently deleted my previouse post as a result of a brain fart while trying to do to many things at once.

Basically, I had a GSP pup who was having the same issues as the OP. Jonesy (tailcrakin) was kind enough to let me come down and took time out of his schedule to help me. what he showed me was exactly what he is describing here. I came home and went to work. after sevral weeks and a bunch of pigeons, my pup will point and hold birds till I get there. he is not broke by any stretch of the imagination, but he is gona make a bird dog.
some might say that using launchers works faster than taking several weeks to do it this way, but that had more to do with my schedule than the method.

There are as many ways to train bird dogs as there are people doing it. I liked the method Jonesy because it fits my style of doing things. I will probly continue to use it.

Like has been said the OP needs to look at all the info available and decide what is best for him.
Jim

[Redfishkilla]

I launched a pigeon for my 4 month old Brittany early in the spring. She immediately let out a loud yelp. I thought, "Ohh no, she been hit by a snake" but she hadn't, she continued to chase the bird crying really loud. She wanted that bird bad. A bird launcher, pigeons and TONS of wild birds are what it takes to make a bird dog.