Gun shy 6 month old lab

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Double U Ranch
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Gun shy 6 month old lab

Post by Double U Ranch » Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:20 am

I am a first time trainer. I am attempting to train a well bred black labrador gun dog. He is six months old and i have been working with him since he was 3 months. He is retrieving very well, picks up scents very well, but has shown signs of gun shyness. I have a neighbor who sights in his guns in the backend of our properties. He has been roughly 200 yds away when i have been working with him and when he shoots the dog will pin his ears back and want to get away.... I have shot a cap gun over him while working with him and he does not seem to be too bothered, he will look, but then will heed my command....

The breeder that i got him from asked me if i wanted to take him to a preserve with two other puppies from the same litter to work with them in the field with pheasant and grouse.... It did not go well at all.... We slowly worked two rows to let the dogs get working.. All three were doing well, independently working the rows with noses down... about 10 minutes into the hunt we jumped a hen, the shooter on the far side from me shot one single shot away, my dog hesitated and came to me.... The other two stopped then went back to the hunt... After a few minutes all three dogs were back to the hunt with my dog staying closer to me than before... About 5 minutes later we jumped a rooster going strainght away, i fired 2 quick shots as did the person next to me, 4 misses.... I looked for my dog and he was running away from the shots with his ears pinned and his tail down.... He looped around the field and went back to the truck.... He was completely withdrawn the rest of the day. After we completed the hunt we came back to the truck and let him out with the other dogs, he quickly strated to play. I decided to work with him with the birds we had shot, and he was anxiously retrieving them.... I sent him on a retrieve with a primer shot only from my gun, he was aprehensive at first but them went after the bird.....

What do i do now??? How do i start conditioniing him to the gun after this situation??

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nitrex
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Re: Gun shy 6 month old lab

Post by nitrex » Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:58 am

Stop shooting! The dog needs to see more birds. Until he is aggressively hunting and chasing birds, I wouldn't start any shooting. When you do start shooting, start with some 22 crimps at about 100 yards and slowly work your way in closer. Move up to a 410 shotgun, then 20ga, and finally a 12ga. There are several other post on this site with more detailed info on introduction to guns...I recommend you read them and get some help.

By the way, did the breeder ask if your dog has ever been shot over before taking you to the preserve...if not, find a different breeder next time! The worst thing you can do with a young dog with birds and guns is have the attitude "let's take the pup out and just see what happens." Set the dog up for success and leave as much "chance" out of the experience as possible.

Good Luck!

Nitrex

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Re: Gun shy 6 month old lab

Post by Double U Ranch » Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:50 am

Thanks Nitrex!

It was not the breeder's fault. I am very nieve (brand new) when it comes to training a dog. He started the dog (for the first 3 months) and was under the impression that i was following the same path... He has not seen the dog since the day i picked him up.... We have discussed how the dog is progressing and we both felt everything is coming along very well.. We never discussed how the dog would react to gun fire... Me being brand new and the breeder working with two others from the same litter it never crossed his/our mind... We were both very disappointed and he was a little upset with me for bringing an "unconditioned" pup to the field....

The breeder gave me the exact same advice as you.... The only other thing he mentioned was to bring the dog to the field and work him (alone) without shooting the gun (carring the gun, draw and aim, but not shoot).... In hopes of bringing a more pleasurable experience / memory to the field.....

Keep the suggestions coming.... I do not want to loose this dog. He was purchased for my 12 year old son and I to hunt over for years to come... Our hope is to have a dog go get it when we go boom....

Thanks!!!

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nitrex
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Re: Gun shy 6 month old lab

Post by nitrex » Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:05 am

Hang in there and hopefully it all goes well. When I am around other peoples dogs I ALWAYS ask where the dog is in training. I would hate to have any part in causing problems with others dogs. Hopefully the breeder will take this as a hard lesson learned.

Nitrex

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AzDoggin
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Re: Gun shy 6 month old lab

Post by AzDoggin » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:00 pm

Nitrex has it nailed.

Birds (and fun and prey drive) come first.

Eventually and gradually, birds = BANG.

Once the dog gets that association, he'll be begging you to shoot over him.

Just don't get in any hurry. When you think he's nonreactive at one level, stay there some more. There is zero payoff to moving too quickly in distance, guage of gun, whatever.

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Don
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Re: Gun shy 6 month old lab

Post by Don » Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:17 pm

Ya got two more thing's to change. When your neighbor is out shooting, don't work with your dog. Sounds like he's shooting a rifle. Rifle's have a much sharper crack than a shotgun, harder on the ears. Don't go back to the perserve till you fix the problem and then go with maybe one more dog but only one gunner and only shoot one time. Two shots had him hesitating and four had him running for cover.
Never set your dog up to fail - Delmar smith

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gonehuntin'
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Re: Gun shy 6 month old lab

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:15 pm

THIS IS A POST i DID ON GUNSHYNESS ON ANOTHER FORUM. DISREGARD THE NAMES I USE OR ANY INFERENCES I MAKE TO METHODS OTHER THAN MINE. GOOD LUCK. FOLLOW THIS AND YOU SHOULD RESOLVE THE PROBLEM.



CURING GUN SHYNESS

A dog is very much like a person. Your fear of one thing can be so great, it outweighs
your desire to do another thing.

In this instance, your dog would love to retrieve, but something about that loud noise
(gunshot) has him so concerned, that the retrieve becomes secondary to his fear of the
noise.

So how do we counter this? There are two ways really, one using birds and the other to
just subject him to the loud noise in a pleasant surrounding over, and over, and over, and
over until he learns not to fear the noise. Goose/stoli uses one method, I use the other. It
doesn't really matter how he was gunshyed, my guess is the 4th of July, either method
will eventually overcome his fear of it.

Goose/stoli likes one method, I prefer the other. I'll try and explain it so you understand.
Your dog is a BIRD DOG. He was bred, born, made, to hunt and retrieve birds. That IS
his life. It isn't being petted, watching TV, or eating. It is getting a bird in his mouth and
retrieving that bird. That desire overcomes every other desire the dog has, the desire to
eat, the desire to breathe, nearly the desire for life. It is the most powerful driving force
the dog possesses. Don't believe that? When the dog is eating, yell mark and throw a bird.
I guarantee he'll bolt from the food dish and grab the bumper. Same if he's on a female
breeding her and you throw a bird. I guarantee if he hasn't locked up yet, he'll jump off,
get that bird and return to his other favorite past time.

So what does this mean to us? It mean that we channel his most powerful drive and use it
to cure his greatest fear. By first throwing clip wings with no shot and letting that drive
surface and grow, and letting the dog have fun, we enhance the drive God has given him
then cure him of the gunshyness by using it. It is the fastest method I know of to cure a
dog of gunshyness yet build that incredible desire. If you get impatient and rush it, it
won't work. Here are the steps in order. There is no time sequence. You proceed only to
the next step when the dog is completing the step he's on at 100%. If you proceed too fast,
you can lose all of the steps and have to start all over.

1). Get the dog birdy. With no gun involved, have a helper throw a clip wing pigeon and
let the dog retrieve it. Start short at 50 yards and work out to 100 yards. Never throw the
birds so many times the dog wants to quit. About 10 times a session is fine. If you don't
have a helper, throw them yourself.

2). Good. He's birdy now. You have to restrain him and when you let him go, he goes flat
out for each pigeon, grabs it and comes back. He is insane to get the birds. Now we add a
gun and a helper. Have a helper stand 100 yards out in a BARE field with a riffle and .22
blanks. Start with a .22 crimp then go to the regular .22 blank. Have the helper throw the
bird in the air without firing and send the dog. Have the helper yell MARK before
throwing the bird to get the dog's attention. After the dog makes a couple of retrieves,
have the helper yell MARK, fire the riffle in the air with the muzzle pointed away from
the dog and send the dog while the bird is still in the air. You use a riffle because the
report is softer than with a pistol. A pistol directs the sound out each side and they're so
loud they even hurt your ears. Use a riffle. Did the dog do it OK? Did he show any
hesitation? If all went well, throw another six birds, firing a shot when the bird is in the
air and sending the dog.

3).Step three is exactly the same as step two, but shorten the helper to 90 yards. Each time
you progress to the next step, shorten it up by 10 yards. If the dog shows any hesitation,
back up 10 yards.

4). Now 80 yards.

5). Now 70 yards.

6) Now 60 yards.

7) Now 50 yards.

8). Now 40 yards.

9) Now 30 yards.

10) Now 20 yards.

11) Now, for step 11, get rid of the helper. Now you take the clip wing, throw it, and
when the dog is in full pursuit, fire the gun with the muzzle directed away from the dog..
He should completely ignore the shot and dive for the bird.

12)Now repeat step 11 EXCEPT don't shoot the gun when the bird is in the air. Wait until
the dog pounces for the bird, his full attention on the bird, and fire the gun. Timing is
crucial and is everything here.

13). The final step with the .22 is to sit the dog, throw the bird with the dog sitting at your
side, and shoot the gun when the bird is in the air and send the dog. Did everything go
OK? Then we're now ready to introduce the shotgun.

To introduce the shotgun back right up to step 1 and do the whole 13 steps over again.
Sound boring and that it will take you a long time? It is and it does. That's why you pay a
pro so much to cure a gun shy dog. If the dog is not a bird-a-holic, you won't cure him by
this method. If he isn't a bird-a-holic, dump him because that isn't the dog you want
anyhow.

With a new pup, you don't have to be this careful, this is how a gun shy dog is broken. If
you get a new pup you break him to the gun differently, but that's for another thread.

You sound like an impatient, young lad to me. Patience. If you have no patience and
aren't willing to follow a plan, you'll never train a dog. Patience, common sense, a
progressive program, understanding, discipline, a good dog. That's dog training. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

Double U Ranch
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Re: Gun shy 6 month old lab

Post by Double U Ranch » Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:05 pm

Thank you so much. I feel much better about my situation now!

Gonehuntin, thanks a million!! I know training a dog takes time and patience, but being a first timer and not really knowing what i am doing i am not sure when to push, and when to be patient... I am reading / using the book; "The 10 Minute Retriver" by John and Amy Dahl. The dog is taking to the direction the book is teaching me, but the most difficult thing for me is knowing when to move on, and not let myself get too frustrated..

Seeing a detailed plan like this will help me be patient as i work through his fear...

I will give updates! How about suggestions on when i should get started?

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Sprig
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Re: Gun shy 6 month old lab

Post by Sprig » Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:17 pm

nitrex wrote:Stop shooting! The dog needs to see more birds. Until he is aggressively hunting and chasing birds, I wouldn't start any shooting. ...... The worst thing you can do with a young dog with birds and guns is have the attitude "let's take the pup out and just see what happens." Set the dog up for success and leave as much "chance" out of the experience as possible.

Good Luck!

Nitrex
very sound advice.

Double U Ranch
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Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:55 am

Re: Gun shy 6 month old lab - UPDATE

Post by Double U Ranch » Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:08 am

I wanted to give an update on our situation.

We have been working on this at a very slow pace. I have met a field trial trainer / handler of Springers, Mike Wallace of Salmy Acres Kennels. I worked with the dog with a simple cap gun, outlayed by the post above. I moved up to a .22 starter pistol. In the past few weeks i have been able to begin working with Mike. We have marked improvement! We actually saw zero hesitation yesterday!!! We are moving up to .410 in the next couple of weeks.... As we continue to see the amazing progress we are planning to set up a simple mock hunt, when and if Mike feels as if he is ready....

I am planning on videoing some of the training in the near future and will post.

Joel

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gonehuntin'
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Re: Gun shy 6 month old lab

Post by gonehuntin' » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:27 am

THIS POST WAS WRITTEN FOR ANOTHER PERSON. DON'T TAKE ANYTHING PERSONAL THAT IS IN IT. IT'S TOO LONG TO RE-WRITE IT EVERY TIME I POST IT.
CURING GUN SHYNESS

A dog is very much like a person. Your fear of one thing can be so great, it outweighs
your desire to do another thing.

In this instance, your dog would love to retrieve, but something about that loud noise
(gunshot) has him so concerned, that the retrieve becomes secondary to his fear of the
noise.

So how do we counter this? There are two ways really, one using birds and the other to
just subject him to the loud noise in a pleasant surrounding over, and over, and over, and
over until he learns not to fear the noise. Goose/stoli uses one method, I use the other. It
doesn't really matter how he was gunshyed, my guess is the 4th of July, either method
will eventually overcome his fear of it.

Goose/stoli likes one method, I prefer the other. I'll try and explain it so you understand.
Your dog is a BIRD DOG. He was bred, born, made, to hunt and retrieve birds. That IS
his life. It isn't being petted, watching TV, or eating. It is getting a bird in his mouth and
retrieving that bird. That desire overcomes every other desire the dog has, the desire to
eat, the desire to breathe, nearly the desire for life. It is the most powerful driving force
the dog possesses. Don't believe that? When the dog is eating, yell mark and throw a bird.
I guarantee he'll bolt from the food dish and grab the bumper. Same if he's on a female
breeding her and you throw a bird. I guarantee if he hasn't locked up yet, he'll jump off,
get that bird and return to his other favorite past time.

So what does this mean to us? It mean that we channel his most powerful drive and use it
to cure his greatest fear. By first throwing clip wings with no shot and letting that drive
surface and grow, and letting the dog have fun, we enhance the drive God has given him
then cure him of the gunshyness by using it. It is the fastest method I know of to cure a
dog of gunshyness yet build that incredible desire. If you get impatient and rush it, it
won't work. Here are the steps in order. There is no time sequence. You proceed only to
the next step when the dog is completing the step he's on at 100%. If you proceed too fast,
you can lose all of the steps and have to start all over.

1). Get the dog birdy. With no gun involved, have a helper throw a clip wing pigeon and
let the dog retrieve it. Start short at 50 yards and work out to 100 yards. Never throw the
birds so many times the dog wants to quit. About 10 times a session is fine. If you don't
have a helper, throw them yourself.

2). Good. He's birdy now. You have to restrain him and when you let him go, he goes flat
out for each pigeon, grabs it and comes back. He is insane to get the birds. Now we add a
gun and a helper. Have a helper stand 100 yards out in a BARE field with a riffle and .22
blanks. Start with a .22 crimp then go to the regular .22 blank. Have the helper throw the
bird in the air without firing and send the dog. Have the helper yell MARK before
throwing the bird to get the dog's attention. After the dog makes a couple of retrieves,
have the helper yell MARK, fire the riffle in the air with the muzzle pointed away from
the dog and send the dog while the bird is still in the air. You use a riffle because the
report is softer than with a pistol. A pistol directs the sound out each side and they're so
loud they even hurt your ears. Use a riffle. Did the dog do it OK? Did he show any
hesitation? If all went well, throw another six birds, firing a shot when the bird is in the
air and sending the dog.

3).Step three is exactly the same as step two, but shorten the helper to 90 yards. Each time
you progress to the next step, shorten it up by 10 yards. If the dog shows any hesitation,
back up 10 yards.

4). Now 80 yards.

5). Now 70 yards.

6) Now 60 yards.

7) Now 50 yards.

8). Now 40 yards.

9) Now 30 yards.

10) Now 20 yards.

11) Now, for step 11, get rid of the helper. Now you take the clip wing, throw it, and
when the dog is in full pursuit, fire the gun with the muzzle directed away from the dog..
He should completely ignore the shot and dive for the bird.

12)Now repeat step 11 EXCEPT don't shoot the gun when the bird is in the air. Wait until
the dog pounces for the bird, his full attention on the bird, and fire the gun. Timing is
crucial and is everything here.

13). The final step with the .22 is to sit the dog, throw the bird with the dog sitting at your
side, and shoot the gun when the bird is in the air and send the dog. Did everything go
OK? Then we're now ready to introduce the shotgun.

To introduce the shotgun back right up to step 1 and do the whole 13 steps over again.
Sound boring and that it will take you a long time? It is and it does. That's why you pay a
pro so much to cure a gun shy dog. If the dog is not a bird-a-holic, you won't cure him by
this method. If he isn't a bird-a-holic, dump him because that isn't the dog you want
anyhow.

With a new pup, you don't have to be this careful, this is how a gun shy dog is broken. If
you get a new pup you break him to the gun differently, but that's for another thread.

You sound like an impatient, young lad to me. Patience. If you have no patience and
aren't willing to follow a plan, you'll never train a dog. Patience, common sense, a
progressive program, understanding, discipline, a good dog. That's dog training.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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