Questions about steadyness

Addict · Post by **Addict** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 5:43 pm

I have been wondering if it is possible to get a dog totally broke to wing and shot using the west method? This is the method I'm currently using but am wondering if it would be better to use the whoa post.

The dog holds great until I get even with him then runs forward to flush. Same with backing, when I get even with him he will rush past the first dog on point to flush.

Addict

billy · Post by **billy** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:28 pm

I personally believe the West method produces well trained dogs. The dogs I'm familiar with who have been trained by their owners using West method have done well in hunt test at the Master Hunter test level. Be prepared it may take longer than you than you had anticipated.

Maurice · Post by **Maurice** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:46 pm

Sure it works.. But it takes time and proper application of the method.. How old is your dog?

Mo

Addict · Post by **Addict** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:48 pm

The dog is 9 months old. I guess it's time to get with someone thats been down this road before and make sure im doing everything right. Check my timing and methods.

Addict.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:59 pm

Addict Bailey used to do this as well. I would just snap a CC on her and when she busted I would pick her up and put her back. THen walk past her again. If she moved I put her back. Eventually she caught on and I added stimulation from my e collar.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 9:42 pm

Addict wrote:I have been wondering if it is possible to get a dog totally broke to wing and shot using the west method? This is the method I'm currently using but am wondering if it would be better to use the whoa post.

The dog holds great until I get even with him then runs forward to flush. Same with backing, when I get even with him he will rush past the first dog on point to flush.

Addict

Brian are you correcting for this? Are you following Dave's way of straight up West?
Judging what I seen of Jinx he has not been corrected for the moving.

HUTCH · Post by **HUTCH** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 9:52 pm

have you seen the West/Gibbons DVD? I am studying that and it has alot of great info. Bill Gibbons says in the DVD that he will start by not walking up from behind the dog but walk around and come at the dog where the dog can see him. maybe that would help then transition to walking from behind. The DVD has helped me to understand what exactly they do and how light the corrections need to be. it might be worth checking out. good luck

Maurice · Post by **Maurice** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 10:41 pm

I don't know the dog but it sounds like a good pup. I know you can't go by age only with dogs because they all mature different but 9 months old seems young to me to be breaking..

Mo

Addict · Post by **Addict** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:21 pm

Tak,

Your right about not correcting. Won't be making that mistake again! The fault is mine by letting the dog get away with it.

Addict

rschuster54303` · Post by **rschuster54303`** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 8:06 am

West method or no mothod, I just plain dont break a dog at 9 months, IMHO this is fun time get em out and hunt I will worry about breaking the dog at 2+.

To each his own, but we have had to fix alot of dogs that pressure was applied to early. I guess I don't see the need to rush it.

If your just looking for the dog to stand till you flush the bird that is something different, but by the way you describing it you want the dog broke.

Good Luck,

Rob

QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 8:47 am

Breaking a dog at 9 months is early I agree......

But he is talking about whoa breaking.

Most of our personal dogs are broke near the 1 year mark. If its done with NO pressure, there will not be problems. I agree there are many exceptions to the rule too.

To each his own..... keep asking questions......there is plenty of help here from knowledgeable people.

Phil
REO

Addict · Post by **Addict** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:04 pm

I am more interested in getting him steady to flush at this point. I know he can get there again soon if I don't let him break point.

I don't want to rush, or put alot of pressure on him that could cause problems down the road. He was steady to flush and got there at an early age just by having the birds teach him. It was my fault for letting him get away with it later on in the hunting season.

Addict

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 12:09 am

I think he is ready. Could be wrong but I still think so.

Post by **Ayres** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 3:01 am

Addict wrote:He was steady to flush and got there at an early age just by having the birds teach him. It was my fault for letting him get away with it later on in the hunting season.

Don't feel bad, I don't think it was your fault. I'll bet that your pup was steady to flush at such a young age because he didn't know what to do when a big noisy bird got up and flushed in front of him. He was awestruck. Later on, when he got away with chasing, it was just because he had such an increase in confidence.

You probably instilled more desire this way. Stopping him from chasing might have culled that development. That's a positive spin for ya.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:49 am

Steven,

The way I read this I think you are talking about a different problem. Having the pup steady till you flush is different than steady after the flush. Pups do like to flush the bird thinking thewy can catch it and they don't want you or another dog to get to it before they do. This is the situation where you don't shoot if the pup flushes.

Ezzy

Post by **Ayres** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:55 pm

Hmm... I think then maybe I was thinking of something else. I thought the phrase "steady to flush" meant that the dog stayed steady while the bird flushed (caused by the handler) up until released, either by a command or by the gunshot. I also thought that when a dog flushed the bird, it was called "not holding point."

Bah, terminology. Maybe we need a gun dog glossary? Could stop confusion (my own).

Post by **Ayres** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:58 pm

Ah, I went back found my mistake. I was going off of Addict's post just two before mine, where he said his dog was "steady to flush," but I forgot the description he gave in his original post to start the thread. My bad.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:30 am

our dog training language is not a model of clarity for the unitiated. for example, for a dog to "be broke" means he is steady to wing and shot, does not move until the retrieve command is given or he is collared or heeled away. however, if the same dog "broke," we mean he failed to be broke. and if a trainer says "i broke my dog" it means he made the dog steady to wing and shot, not that the dog broke, or that the dog is broken.

as a noun, it describes a good level of training. as a verb where the subject is the dog, it describes an error by the dog. as a verb where the subject is the trainer and the object is the dog, it is back to being a good thing.

but it all does work. just takes a little getting used to.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:50 am

Either way I think Brian is getting what he wanted from the thread! Being the breeder of the dog I am happy for what he has done with the pup/dog! Made a good friend in the deal too!
To good Posting!

Addict · Post by **Addict** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:21 am

Thanks everyone for the posts. Being a new trainer it's hard to know what to do at times. I enjoy reading posts from people that have been down this road before. Very helpful crowd here.

Tom,

Thanks for the compliments. Lets get out hunting again! Going Saturday if you can make it.

Addict

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:42 pm

I have to guide on Friday and possible Sat if I don't I will for sure!

llewgor · Post by **llewgor** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:16 pm

Addict
Are walking up to the dog from behind? Sometime they want to walk with you when you do this . Try walking out and around in front of the dog like your trying to trap the bird between you and the dog. For some reason this takes the competition out and makes it a team effort.

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Questions about steadyness

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