I'm in the process of trying to train my dog stop to flush. I would like to know if anyone would share their method with me. what I do now is: I whoa him, walk out in front of him and toss out the quail (armadillo foam dummy) and make him stay until I say BANG really loud. my goal is steady to wing and release to shot so I let this bang release him, and he retreives the bird to hand and I repeat. this is his after dad gets home workout after he runs laps in the feild. he LOVES this game and I repeat usually about 20 times a day or until he is tired (which usually comes AFTER my arm is wore out). any comments on my method or other methods would be greatly appreciated. thank you in advance.
-Scott
stop to flush
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Kevin
I am no pro but I believe you want the stimuli first. Walking the dog on a long line, let a bird go, then stop him with the line. Bird first-then stop him. The bird flushing is the reason he stops, not you saying whoa.
The dummy will work at first to give the dog the idea, but switch to live birds asap.
The dummy will work at first to give the dog the idea, but switch to live birds asap.
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Casper
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I am no pro either but I will tell you how I am doing it.
If you have ever heard of using a whoa post than that is the foundation. Once the point of contact has been developed than you can overlay a e-collar. Than as soon as the dog knows what is expected of him you can start doing some bird work. As soon as the bird is in the air and the dog starts chase you than apply stimulation. The dog will soon stop and you approch the dog and send him in a different direction the bird flew. Several repetitions will get the dog standing through the flush.
This is very summed up but I dont have time to type all the details. Sorry
If you have ever heard of using a whoa post than that is the foundation. Once the point of contact has been developed than you can overlay a e-collar. Than as soon as the dog knows what is expected of him you can start doing some bird work. As soon as the bird is in the air and the dog starts chase you than apply stimulation. The dog will soon stop and you approch the dog and send him in a different direction the bird flew. Several repetitions will get the dog standing through the flush.
This is very summed up but I dont have time to type all the details. Sorry
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Huntumup
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Ayres
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Just my opinion, but I'd train the dog to be steady to wing & shot... then if you really want it to break on the shot just start allowing it to do that.
It's easier to let a dog backslide on training a bit than to let it get away with less than optimum performance and then try to get it up to par.
It's easier to let a dog backslide on training a bit than to let it get away with less than optimum performance and then try to get it up to par.
- Steven
Justus Kennels.com
Justus James Ayres SH CGC - Justus - Rest in Peace, buddy.
Wind River's JK Clara Belle - Belle
Wind River's JK Black Tie Affair - Tux
Justus Kennels.com
Justus James Ayres SH CGC - Justus - Rest in Peace, buddy.
Wind River's JK Clara Belle - Belle
Wind River's JK Black Tie Affair - Tux
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Wagonmaster
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i was kinda hanging back hoping to see a little explanation of exactly what it is you are trying to do. but let me try explain.
stop to flush is the term used for the dog's reaction to a bird that is wild flushed. a wild flush means that dog was unaware of the bird, and had no chance to be aware of it, before the bird got up. the bird was always downwind of the dog, for example.
stop to flush needs to be distinguished from a stop to bump, which is not really a dog training term of art, and is definitely not something you want to train. bumping a bird, means the dog was aware of the bird, but was at fault for causing the bird to flush. the way to cure a dog from stopping to bump, is to teach it not to bump at all. not to crowd birds so much that they leave. teaching it to stop when it bumps does not do much good. not that you are doing that, but we do need to distinguish between the two tasks.
when a dog stops to flush, it is normally good practice not to shoot. shooting at that point, tends to reward the dog because the bird flushed. this in turn tends to cause the dog to bump in order to get that flush. now, if you have a really well trained dog, that is fully broke (steady to wing and shot), and has had a couple of good hunting seasons as a broke dog, you can then maybe shoot those wild flushed birds, provided the dog does stop to flush. you are hunting after all, there is no one looking over your shoulder, and the object is to get some birds, so go ahead. but if you do this early in a dog's hunting career, you will unfortunately be training it to flush. if you train it to flush in that way, you will be training it to stop to bump. so be a little careful about the shooting part.
but here is the bigger concern I have with what you are doing. dogs are made with live birds. foam birds, scents, wings on bucks, all can have a little usefulness, but really only in the early steps of training and development. lots of people might do what you are doing, then take the dog to the field and wonder why it isn't stopping to flush, after all, it was trained to do that right. well, no, until you train it with live birds, it is not. a very few dogs might transition from your exercise, to performing on live birds, but most will not see the two as the same.
any training has four steps: first, we show the dog the task or command; second, we condition it to perform the task or command through repetition; third, we enforce the task or command - apply some pressure so the dog understand it must do what we are asking of it; and lastly, we do graduate level exercises, where we introduce distractions or challenges, so the dog understands it must do the command regardless of other things going on. in addition, we want to do all this in little steps, transitioning from the easy to the difficult.
the exercise you are currently doing, I think, is an ingenious way to do step one, starting to introduce the stop to flush task. I would eliminate saying "Bang," because that is not going to correlate to an actual gunshot, and you do not want the dog to think you are shooting anyway, but your exercise is introducing the task.
however, to really teach the dog to stop to flush, requires quite a bit more. first, you need to find a source of live birds. then, you should start throwing or launching those live birds instead of the dummy. in addition, you need to have the ability to restrain the dog such as by a check cord, when you do this, so the dog cannot break and chase. probably for that you need an assistant.
we would actually train this differently. we would first train the dog to be steady. we would teach it whoa through yardwork obedience (the introduction, repetition, enforcement steps). then we would teach it by moving to planted birds in the field, (we would go back through introduction, repetition, enforcement, and now of course with live birds we have added temptation, distraction).
understanding that your goal is to have a dog that is steady to wing, but not to shot, we would work it step by step on live birds until it is to that point.
then, when we know it understands that whoa means to stop and stand on live birds, we would add stop to flush. we would do this by a couple of methods. one would be to have an assistant walk through a field with the trainer and the dog, and randomly release birds from a bird bag. the trainer would give the dog the whoa command and restrain the dog with a check cord. or we would plant birds in a remote release trap, walk the dog through the field upwind of the planted bird so the dog cannot detect the bird, then launch the bird, give the whoa command, and restrain the dog. we would then work through enforcement of the command off lead, probably with an ecollar, and finally transition off the ecollar.
this is maybe more info. than you want. what you have come up with is a first step training exercise, that conditions the dog to stop on an event, the event being the tossing of the foam bird. however, that is a long way from having a dog trained to stop to flush, and you have got to get live birds involved in the training process or you will never really get there.
stop to flush is the term used for the dog's reaction to a bird that is wild flushed. a wild flush means that dog was unaware of the bird, and had no chance to be aware of it, before the bird got up. the bird was always downwind of the dog, for example.
stop to flush needs to be distinguished from a stop to bump, which is not really a dog training term of art, and is definitely not something you want to train. bumping a bird, means the dog was aware of the bird, but was at fault for causing the bird to flush. the way to cure a dog from stopping to bump, is to teach it not to bump at all. not to crowd birds so much that they leave. teaching it to stop when it bumps does not do much good. not that you are doing that, but we do need to distinguish between the two tasks.
when a dog stops to flush, it is normally good practice not to shoot. shooting at that point, tends to reward the dog because the bird flushed. this in turn tends to cause the dog to bump in order to get that flush. now, if you have a really well trained dog, that is fully broke (steady to wing and shot), and has had a couple of good hunting seasons as a broke dog, you can then maybe shoot those wild flushed birds, provided the dog does stop to flush. you are hunting after all, there is no one looking over your shoulder, and the object is to get some birds, so go ahead. but if you do this early in a dog's hunting career, you will unfortunately be training it to flush. if you train it to flush in that way, you will be training it to stop to bump. so be a little careful about the shooting part.
but here is the bigger concern I have with what you are doing. dogs are made with live birds. foam birds, scents, wings on bucks, all can have a little usefulness, but really only in the early steps of training and development. lots of people might do what you are doing, then take the dog to the field and wonder why it isn't stopping to flush, after all, it was trained to do that right. well, no, until you train it with live birds, it is not. a very few dogs might transition from your exercise, to performing on live birds, but most will not see the two as the same.
any training has four steps: first, we show the dog the task or command; second, we condition it to perform the task or command through repetition; third, we enforce the task or command - apply some pressure so the dog understand it must do what we are asking of it; and lastly, we do graduate level exercises, where we introduce distractions or challenges, so the dog understands it must do the command regardless of other things going on. in addition, we want to do all this in little steps, transitioning from the easy to the difficult.
the exercise you are currently doing, I think, is an ingenious way to do step one, starting to introduce the stop to flush task. I would eliminate saying "Bang," because that is not going to correlate to an actual gunshot, and you do not want the dog to think you are shooting anyway, but your exercise is introducing the task.
however, to really teach the dog to stop to flush, requires quite a bit more. first, you need to find a source of live birds. then, you should start throwing or launching those live birds instead of the dummy. in addition, you need to have the ability to restrain the dog such as by a check cord, when you do this, so the dog cannot break and chase. probably for that you need an assistant.
we would actually train this differently. we would first train the dog to be steady. we would teach it whoa through yardwork obedience (the introduction, repetition, enforcement steps). then we would teach it by moving to planted birds in the field, (we would go back through introduction, repetition, enforcement, and now of course with live birds we have added temptation, distraction).
understanding that your goal is to have a dog that is steady to wing, but not to shot, we would work it step by step on live birds until it is to that point.
then, when we know it understands that whoa means to stop and stand on live birds, we would add stop to flush. we would do this by a couple of methods. one would be to have an assistant walk through a field with the trainer and the dog, and randomly release birds from a bird bag. the trainer would give the dog the whoa command and restrain the dog with a check cord. or we would plant birds in a remote release trap, walk the dog through the field upwind of the planted bird so the dog cannot detect the bird, then launch the bird, give the whoa command, and restrain the dog. we would then work through enforcement of the command off lead, probably with an ecollar, and finally transition off the ecollar.
this is maybe more info. than you want. what you have come up with is a first step training exercise, that conditions the dog to stop on an event, the event being the tossing of the foam bird. however, that is a long way from having a dog trained to stop to flush, and you have got to get live birds involved in the training process or you will never really get there.
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TAK
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Great post Wagon.
"""then, when we know it understands that whoa means to stop and stand on live birds, we would add stop to flush. we would do this by a couple of methods. one would be to have an assistant walk through a field with the trainer and the dog, and randomly release birds from a bird bag. the trainer would give the dog the whoa command and restrain the dog with a check cord. or we would plant birds in a remote release trap, walk the dog through the field upwind of the planted bird so the dog cannot detect the bird, then launch the bird, give the whoa command, and restrain the dog. we would then work through enforcement of the command off lead, probably with an ecollar, and finally transition off the ecollar.""""
Good enough for me!
"""then, when we know it understands that whoa means to stop and stand on live birds, we would add stop to flush. we would do this by a couple of methods. one would be to have an assistant walk through a field with the trainer and the dog, and randomly release birds from a bird bag. the trainer would give the dog the whoa command and restrain the dog with a check cord. or we would plant birds in a remote release trap, walk the dog through the field upwind of the planted bird so the dog cannot detect the bird, then launch the bird, give the whoa command, and restrain the dog. we would then work through enforcement of the command off lead, probably with an ecollar, and finally transition off the ecollar.""""
Good enough for me!
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Kurzhaar
I teach steadiness in a different way
I was taught a different way to teach steadiness that approaches the task from the opposite direction. This method does not associate steadiness with pointing until the end of the process.
I start by having a FF'd, Halt broke dog. I take the dog walking through a field with several frozen pigeons in my game vest. When the dog is turning in a way that he can see the bird when I throw it in the air, I throw it. If the dog breaks, I Halt it. Then I retrieve the bird and make a big deal of it. I repeat this process until the dog stops when it sees the flying dead bird.
At this point I introduce a shot after the bird falls, with the same consequence/reward. When the dog is stopping and not breaking on shot, we change the order: Shot then bird. Through this process we change to fresh killed pigeons.
We then change to live pigeons carried in our pockets. This requires an assistance. I carry the pigeons and the assistant the shotgun. When the dog can see it, I release a pigeon and it flys away, the assistant shoots it, and I watch the dog. If the dog breaks, HALT and I retrieve the same as with the dead pigeons.
At this point the dog has the "game" figured out. We then move to the field with a launcher. Notice the dog is broke to wing and shot BEFORE we move to the field. We bring the dog into the scent cone and let the dog establish point, pop the bird, shoot, halt or retrieve.
When we taught my older stud dog steadiness we used only 5 live pigeons!!!
Through this process the dog's reward for steadiness is the retrieve and praise on the retrieve. The punishment is being Halted, they quickly figure out that stopping when they see the flying bird is a good thing.
This process works for me and my training buddies. For those of you that will cry "I don't want my dog to lay down on the flush", please be assured that my dogs are staunch and stylish on point.
Jim
I start by having a FF'd, Halt broke dog. I take the dog walking through a field with several frozen pigeons in my game vest. When the dog is turning in a way that he can see the bird when I throw it in the air, I throw it. If the dog breaks, I Halt it. Then I retrieve the bird and make a big deal of it. I repeat this process until the dog stops when it sees the flying dead bird.
At this point I introduce a shot after the bird falls, with the same consequence/reward. When the dog is stopping and not breaking on shot, we change the order: Shot then bird. Through this process we change to fresh killed pigeons.
We then change to live pigeons carried in our pockets. This requires an assistance. I carry the pigeons and the assistant the shotgun. When the dog can see it, I release a pigeon and it flys away, the assistant shoots it, and I watch the dog. If the dog breaks, HALT and I retrieve the same as with the dead pigeons.
At this point the dog has the "game" figured out. We then move to the field with a launcher. Notice the dog is broke to wing and shot BEFORE we move to the field. We bring the dog into the scent cone and let the dog establish point, pop the bird, shoot, halt or retrieve.
When we taught my older stud dog steadiness we used only 5 live pigeons!!!
Through this process the dog's reward for steadiness is the retrieve and praise on the retrieve. The punishment is being Halted, they quickly figure out that stopping when they see the flying bird is a good thing.
This process works for me and my training buddies. For those of you that will cry "I don't want my dog to lay down on the flush", please be assured that my dogs are staunch and stylish on point.
Jim
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Wagonmaster
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Jim brings up a good point I should have mentioned. Stop to flush is normally a finishing stroke, something you teach the dog after having taught it Whoa (or Halt in Jim's case) and steadied it as far as you are going to steady it. At that point in their training, many dogs are naturally stopping to flush, or at least not chasing very far. They might go 30 feet or 30 yards after a bird, but not the full blown chase of puphood. They already know they should not chase, they just do not know what their reaction should be. We are just filling in that last question, if they are not supposed to chase, what are they supposed to do. So teaching stop to flush at the end of the breaking process means that stop to flush usually does not take long to learn. It is more a matter of doing distraction and challenge work, so dog will stop to flush in the field, under the gun, on real birds.
There are two purposes to it. One is the safety aspect, if a bird wild flushes you may not want the dog running under it where a careless companion might accidentally shoot it. However, if you are getting alot of stop to flushes in gun range, and shooting many birds over stop to flushes, then I would suggest you need to reevaluate either the dog, or your training. With you, bird, and dog that close together, you are more likely getting stop to bump, which is an error by the dog, and you need to go back to the drawing board on steadiness. We would normally not shoot a stopped to flush birds when the dog is young, because it teaches the wrong thing.
The second, and the real purpose of stop to flush is that birds generally come in multiples. If one or two pop wild, there is a good chance that more are still around. If dog chases, he will root out the rest. So we train stop to flush so that the hunter can get to the dog and release, thus being in on the action and having the dog under control when the remaining birds are located.
Kurz, no one said anything about your dogs laying down. Don't know where that came from. But it did bring back a memory. Some years ago a friends dog was injured, and he got an 11 or 12 year old rescue shorthair to fill in, named Pete. My friend and I were hunting quail in IA with another fella who was a dominant field trial pro at the time. We noticed right away that although Pete did not run at a big range, he was always working, and had a terrific nose for quail. He was finding more birds than some dogs we had that we thought were pretty good.
We got a covey up and they flew across a river into a woods. We went after them. Pete got there first. We lost sight of him as we went down into a coulee to cross the river, and then found him when we got up on the far bank. He was behind a big log, 16" or so. He was in a complete crouch with his belly on the ground. His head went up over the top of the log like a snorkel. You would have said he was laying down on point, except there was nothing "laying down" about him, every fiber was intense. My pro friend exclaimed, "He is hiding from the quail, so he does not flush them." And indeed he was. Old Pete had figured out that if he crouched behind that log, he would not disturb those birds.
I don't know that Pete would ever have won a trial. But he was one smart hunting dog, and we admired his work that day.
Train your hunting dog to please you and to please your dog. Don't worry about what the rest of us think, we are just fingers on the Internet, you are the guy who has to hunt with it.
There are two purposes to it. One is the safety aspect, if a bird wild flushes you may not want the dog running under it where a careless companion might accidentally shoot it. However, if you are getting alot of stop to flushes in gun range, and shooting many birds over stop to flushes, then I would suggest you need to reevaluate either the dog, or your training. With you, bird, and dog that close together, you are more likely getting stop to bump, which is an error by the dog, and you need to go back to the drawing board on steadiness. We would normally not shoot a stopped to flush birds when the dog is young, because it teaches the wrong thing.
The second, and the real purpose of stop to flush is that birds generally come in multiples. If one or two pop wild, there is a good chance that more are still around. If dog chases, he will root out the rest. So we train stop to flush so that the hunter can get to the dog and release, thus being in on the action and having the dog under control when the remaining birds are located.
Kurz, no one said anything about your dogs laying down. Don't know where that came from. But it did bring back a memory. Some years ago a friends dog was injured, and he got an 11 or 12 year old rescue shorthair to fill in, named Pete. My friend and I were hunting quail in IA with another fella who was a dominant field trial pro at the time. We noticed right away that although Pete did not run at a big range, he was always working, and had a terrific nose for quail. He was finding more birds than some dogs we had that we thought were pretty good.
We got a covey up and they flew across a river into a woods. We went after them. Pete got there first. We lost sight of him as we went down into a coulee to cross the river, and then found him when we got up on the far bank. He was behind a big log, 16" or so. He was in a complete crouch with his belly on the ground. His head went up over the top of the log like a snorkel. You would have said he was laying down on point, except there was nothing "laying down" about him, every fiber was intense. My pro friend exclaimed, "He is hiding from the quail, so he does not flush them." And indeed he was. Old Pete had figured out that if he crouched behind that log, he would not disturb those birds.
I don't know that Pete would ever have won a trial. But he was one smart hunting dog, and we admired his work that day.
Train your hunting dog to please you and to please your dog. Don't worry about what the rest of us think, we are just fingers on the Internet, you are the guy who has to hunt with it.
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larue
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john,like kurzaar, I break my dogs by teaching stop to flush in steps,and finally bringing it in into pointed birds.
The advantage of useing this method is that you are putting the pressure of the training on the chase,and not the point.
So 90 percent of the corrections take place not around a pointed bird.
My tech is as follows, teach a verbal whoa with a rope,
collar condition with e-collar and rope.
Teach dog a throw object is to be stopped for,
move to a dead thrown bird,
move to a live fly away bird,
fianally a thrown wing clipped bird,.
After all of these stages have been accomplished,and the dog is
consistant with them,I will now correct a dog around birds,but only after he has chased,becouse he has been taught never to chase,
and as the corrections have all been not verbal,the dog actually
will asscociate the situation to his correction,ie him chaseing the bird.You will get a better over the hill broke dog,if he repects the situation not you.
This tech,will allow your dog to feel the least amount of negative stimulas around birds,which will help with softer dogs,and in keeping all of the dogs style in his birdwork.
The advantage of useing this method is that you are putting the pressure of the training on the chase,and not the point.
So 90 percent of the corrections take place not around a pointed bird.
My tech is as follows, teach a verbal whoa with a rope,
collar condition with e-collar and rope.
Teach dog a throw object is to be stopped for,
move to a dead thrown bird,
move to a live fly away bird,
fianally a thrown wing clipped bird,.
After all of these stages have been accomplished,and the dog is
consistant with them,I will now correct a dog around birds,but only after he has chased,becouse he has been taught never to chase,
and as the corrections have all been not verbal,the dog actually
will asscociate the situation to his correction,ie him chaseing the bird.You will get a better over the hill broke dog,if he repects the situation not you.
This tech,will allow your dog to feel the least amount of negative stimulas around birds,which will help with softer dogs,and in keeping all of the dogs style in his birdwork.
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Kurzhaar
John:Wagonmaster wrote:J
Kurz, no one said anything about your dogs laying down. Don't know where that came from.
No one mentioned anything about laying down, that was a preemptive stike on my part. I didn't want this instructive thread to digress into something else. We all have seen that happen, this is the type of thread that helps us all understand other methods of dog training, keep it up.
Jim
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SCOTTS_4X
thanks guys. all of this info will be a great help to me I'm sure. as for a little background; the dog is 16 months old and hunting rather well for his first season, in my opinion. he has the basic control commands down (except heel, which i am currently making good progress on). he will come (here), sit, whoa, all that stuff, and all lead work is now completely overlayed with the e-collar as he is rarely on a lead anymore. he is doing an excellent job holding points on wild birds, and I am fairly happy with his training up to this point. let me emphasize that this was his first season and he is nowhere near finished in any respect of the word, but with the training he ahs had (my best amatuer try) I beleive he is doing very well. anyways, thanks again guys for all of your help.
-Scott
-Scott
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Kevin
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Wagonmaster
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Kevin-
I think you are thinking of stop to bump, dog fails to handle the bird properly, it flies, but dog is trained not to chase. The occasion for a true stop to flush is not that common in the field, if the dog is well trained and has a good nose. Thus, not much reason to train for it before steadying the dog. Steadying is the meat of the training of a pointer.
I suppose you could train a pointer to stop to flush before you steady it, but steadying is so much more important, why would you want to get side tracked.
I think you are thinking of stop to bump, dog fails to handle the bird properly, it flies, but dog is trained not to chase. The occasion for a true stop to flush is not that common in the field, if the dog is well trained and has a good nose. Thus, not much reason to train for it before steadying the dog. Steadying is the meat of the training of a pointer.
I suppose you could train a pointer to stop to flush before you steady it, but steadying is so much more important, why would you want to get side tracked.
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HUTCH
I have a take on this. now I am still on training my first and second dog so I may be way off. but the point of training is to get the dog to stand up and stamd tall when a bird is in the air. we hope he will point first because he was bred to do that. but wouldnt doing the stop to flush first be a good thing. my way of thinking is because you go from yard work with no real distractions. to flushing a bird a distance from the dog and making him stand, then let him point a bird and flush it. you are gradually increasing the distraction and I would think that it would be easier for the dog to learn that way. what do you think?
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TAK
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Wagon, I think what is being offered is along the lines of the West Method or in my case the Dave Walker Method. I am working a dog with this method that I learned from Dave himself. His way is just a little twiked I hear from the West method.Wagonmaster wrote:Kevin-
I think you are thinking of stop to bump, dog fails to handle the bird properly, it flies, but dog is trained not to chase. The occasion for a true stop to flush is not that common in the field, if the dog is well trained and has a good nose. Thus, not much reason to train for it before steadying the dog. Steadying is the meat of the training of a pointer.
I suppose you could train a pointer to stop to flush before you steady it, but steadying is so much more important, why would you want to get side tracked.
Basic info on it is that you take a dog into a bird of CC or Collar and correct the dog when he/she has moved the bird.
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Wagonmaster
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TAK, I have to confess I don't know the Walker or West methods. I stopped reading at Delmar Smith which was at least a couple of decades ago, and since then have osmosotized from various pro and am. trainers, and just my own experience. but if they are step by step with lots of birds, i am sure i would like them.
Hutch-
I am not quite following you, but maybe can comment like this. I think what you are wondering is can you get a dog to stand stylishly on point by starting with someone (or a release trap) tossing birds in the air while you whoa the dog, and can you do that before you steady the dog on birds it points by scent. i have never really tried that, and it might work, but let me tell you how I do evaluate any new training idea.
you have to think about any new training method in light of two laws, the Law of Unexpected Occurrences and the Law of Unintended Consequences. The law of Unexpected Occurences says that all kinds of stuff you don't expect can happen during training, so you have to develop a step by step approach, little building blocks one at a time. That way, if a crack develops in the wall of training you have built, because of something happening during a training session that you could never have expected, you can go back a couple of steps to the bottom of the crack and rebuild the wall. you have a solid foundation. this Law means no taking shortcuts. one thing builds on the next with no gaps in between.
the Law of Unintended Consequences is more important to your training idea, I think. it says you have to consider not only what you think you are training, but everything you are actually training the dog to do. i wrote something about a dog a friend had, which had been trained by a pro to run for field trials by zapping the dog with a collar and running it off everytime it came in to the handler. The dog ran like a champ, but the unintended consequence was that it had been trained never to stand still, so it could not ever be reliably broke around birds. it just got to nervous, and its training had been in case of uncertainty, run like h - e - double toothpicks.
the pro trained for one thing, and didn't think about what else he might be doing.
we want our dogs to use their noses to find birds. so we want to get them to use their noses and not their eyes as soon as possible. techniques that teach a dog to point by sight tend to create the problem that the dog wants to see birds it points. sight pointing leads to crowding birds, which leads to birds leaving early, which leads to the stop to bump, which is an error on the part of the dog.
so i can't tell you that your idea will or won't work, cause i really have not done it, but would suggest you consider not just what you think you are training for, but also any other things the dog may be learning from the method. I don't think I would do it for a very long period of time, though.
i will tell you that we do use sight techniques to get pups excited about birds, and to get them pointing. we use them very early in the pup's life, however, and abandon them in favor of scent pointing as fast as possible. we might, for example, introduce a pup at 8 to 10 weeks to live quail, and since at this point we are just trying to get them excited about birds, we may induce the quail to run in front of them and/or flush, and we sure let the pup chase. but typically we are through this stage and the pup is pointing on scent in two or three short training session, and we encourage them to use their noses ever after.
not sure that answers your question, but hope it helps.
Hutch-
I am not quite following you, but maybe can comment like this. I think what you are wondering is can you get a dog to stand stylishly on point by starting with someone (or a release trap) tossing birds in the air while you whoa the dog, and can you do that before you steady the dog on birds it points by scent. i have never really tried that, and it might work, but let me tell you how I do evaluate any new training idea.
you have to think about any new training method in light of two laws, the Law of Unexpected Occurrences and the Law of Unintended Consequences. The law of Unexpected Occurences says that all kinds of stuff you don't expect can happen during training, so you have to develop a step by step approach, little building blocks one at a time. That way, if a crack develops in the wall of training you have built, because of something happening during a training session that you could never have expected, you can go back a couple of steps to the bottom of the crack and rebuild the wall. you have a solid foundation. this Law means no taking shortcuts. one thing builds on the next with no gaps in between.
the Law of Unintended Consequences is more important to your training idea, I think. it says you have to consider not only what you think you are training, but everything you are actually training the dog to do. i wrote something about a dog a friend had, which had been trained by a pro to run for field trials by zapping the dog with a collar and running it off everytime it came in to the handler. The dog ran like a champ, but the unintended consequence was that it had been trained never to stand still, so it could not ever be reliably broke around birds. it just got to nervous, and its training had been in case of uncertainty, run like h - e - double toothpicks.
the pro trained for one thing, and didn't think about what else he might be doing.
we want our dogs to use their noses to find birds. so we want to get them to use their noses and not their eyes as soon as possible. techniques that teach a dog to point by sight tend to create the problem that the dog wants to see birds it points. sight pointing leads to crowding birds, which leads to birds leaving early, which leads to the stop to bump, which is an error on the part of the dog.
so i can't tell you that your idea will or won't work, cause i really have not done it, but would suggest you consider not just what you think you are training for, but also any other things the dog may be learning from the method. I don't think I would do it for a very long period of time, though.
i will tell you that we do use sight techniques to get pups excited about birds, and to get them pointing. we use them very early in the pup's life, however, and abandon them in favor of scent pointing as fast as possible. we might, for example, introduce a pup at 8 to 10 weeks to live quail, and since at this point we are just trying to get them excited about birds, we may induce the quail to run in front of them and/or flush, and we sure let the pup chase. but typically we are through this stage and the pup is pointing on scent in two or three short training session, and we encourage them to use their noses ever after.
not sure that answers your question, but hope it helps.
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TAK
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Wagon, Dave has a couple of training films out of the market and has a new book out. I have seen the films but have yet to get the book ordered.
Mo has a forum dedicated to the West method that he runs. Walker goes about training just a little different. He is training everything with a collar right from the get go.
Last summer Dave came and gave a seminar and took some dogs that have never had a collar around there neck and was teaching them to Stand Up and Stand still with bird out front of them.
As I said before I am working one just as Dave has tried to teach me.
Mo I am sure can detail it out much better and more percise than I can.
Either way I think is going to work for getting this dog polished for the hunter.!
Mo has a forum dedicated to the West method that he runs. Walker goes about training just a little different. He is training everything with a collar right from the get go.
Last summer Dave came and gave a seminar and took some dogs that have never had a collar around there neck and was teaching them to Stand Up and Stand still with bird out front of them.
As I said before I am working one just as Dave has tried to teach me.
Mo I am sure can detail it out much better and more percise than I can.
Either way I think is going to work for getting this dog polished for the hunter.!
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Wagonmaster
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Does it involve uses the barrel method to teach whoa. I have always gone about whoa my own way, but may be taking in a couple of dogs to train this summer for my brothers. They are a ways down the pike without much formal training. I thought that might be a good way to teach them whoa and am looking for some material on it.
Am on the uplandbirddog site and have seen the forum about the West method there, but never paid much attention to it.
Am on the uplandbirddog site and have seen the forum about the West method there, but never paid much attention to it.
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mountaindogs
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Wagonmaster wrote: Hutch-
I am not quite following you, but maybe can comment like this. I think what you are wondering is can you get a dog to stand stylishly on point by starting with someone (or a release trap) tossing birds in the air while you whoa the dog, and can you do that before you steady the dog on birds it points by scent. i have never really tried that, and it might work, but let me tell you how I do evaluate any new training idea.
.....
we want our dogs to use their noses to find birds. so we want to get them to use their noses and not their eyes as soon as possible. techniques that teach a dog to point by sight tend to create the problem that the dog wants to see birds it points. sight pointing leads to crowding birds, which leads to birds leaving early, which leads to the stop to bump, which is an error on the part of the dog.
.....
I have been watching the perfect start*** oops after the fact edit- The Perfect FINISH is what I meant**** video and they train by whoaing the dog with no scent, then releasing live bird and making sure dog stays steady through that, before scent is introduced. Then they move to scent cones, then add gun fire, then throw bird for retrieve, etc. But they don't emphasize style at the first stage, before the scent. They said they are just teaching the dog that "whoa" also applies whe you see birds flying, then slowly work towards a more natural situation. All of the dogs in the video showed increased intensity as they worked through the whole process. Don't think they were training sight pointing, at all, just "error proofing" the mistakes dog can make when they actually SEE the bird, which is very exciting. They stated that it's less likely to cause blinking if they don't associate scent while they are using the collar to re-inforce whoa. Still watching this very long DVD set, so maybe I am not fully aware of what they are trying to do, but seems good to me as a theory. If I had to be critical, I would say they don't praise for a job well done enough, and I think the dogs take longer to grasp what is right, but the dogs thus far have pointed naturally and not pushed in to see the bird... Actually they seemed to almost look up waiting for the flush rather than look where the bird actually is...
Last edited by mountaindogs on Tue Jan 24, 2006 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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TAK
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Wagon,
Dave does not use any barrels or posts in his training. A Pinch collar Check cord, E-collar and carded birds. He takes the dogs into the birds with all the bling attached and works the CC/pinch and the collar as the dog crouds the bird and the bird flushes. He is using the e collar and pinch to get the dog to stand up and stand still. When the dog stops and points the bird he walks outfront and trys the flush. If the dog bolts at the bird he uses the collar(s) to correct for the flush. It may sound odd or even to simple but it does work. Tell you the truth he said most people will say that is to simple it can't work! He also is big on not saying a word to the dog. His words "You make them stupid if you do"
I was pretty impressed with him taking dogs he has never laid a hand on that in my opinion were as bold as wet "toilet paper" and use the e-collar/pinch and make them stand up and stand still pointing the birds.
I found his seminar very good, he even covered how he felt to pet a dog or praise them!
I would recommend Dave Walkers tapes or I hear about a taping of Bill Gibbon/Bill West at a seminar over the summer in Texas. I am a type C person. I have to (C)see it, I can read tell I am blue in the face but retain little with it.
Also Mo(Marice) has a forum dedicated to it in Yahoo Groups, he is also a memeber here and could direct you to it. I lost my link some time ago. Also Kim on here does alot of training this way and could maybe give you better explination.
Heck if nothing else contact Dave and he has alway been more than happy to talk dogs! You may want to get a bunch of people together and hold a seminar with him.
Dave uses the collar a ton, in fact he explained how he did ground tieing horses with one..........
Dave does not use any barrels or posts in his training. A Pinch collar Check cord, E-collar and carded birds. He takes the dogs into the birds with all the bling attached and works the CC/pinch and the collar as the dog crouds the bird and the bird flushes. He is using the e collar and pinch to get the dog to stand up and stand still. When the dog stops and points the bird he walks outfront and trys the flush. If the dog bolts at the bird he uses the collar(s) to correct for the flush. It may sound odd or even to simple but it does work. Tell you the truth he said most people will say that is to simple it can't work! He also is big on not saying a word to the dog. His words "You make them stupid if you do"
I was pretty impressed with him taking dogs he has never laid a hand on that in my opinion were as bold as wet "toilet paper" and use the e-collar/pinch and make them stand up and stand still pointing the birds.
I found his seminar very good, he even covered how he felt to pet a dog or praise them!
I would recommend Dave Walkers tapes or I hear about a taping of Bill Gibbon/Bill West at a seminar over the summer in Texas. I am a type C person. I have to (C)see it, I can read tell I am blue in the face but retain little with it.
Also Mo(Marice) has a forum dedicated to it in Yahoo Groups, he is also a memeber here and could direct you to it. I lost my link some time ago. Also Kim on here does alot of training this way and could maybe give you better explination.
Heck if nothing else contact Dave and he has alway been more than happy to talk dogs! You may want to get a bunch of people together and hold a seminar with him.
Dave uses the collar a ton, in fact he explained how he did ground tieing horses with one..........
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Margaret
Marg's version
I think I'll enter in the local pigeon trial, so I sat my dog down and threw a few bantams in the air to get her steady to flush. First one fluttered a bit close, they don't have much in the way of aerodynamics 
, and it lost a couple tail feathers, but hey, they are moulting anyway 
Next I'll get her to sit when I fire the starting pistol and we should be ready to roll
I expect to win
Marg
, and it lost a couple tail feathers, but hey, they are moulting anyway Next I'll get her to sit when I fire the starting pistol and we should be ready to roll
I expect to win
Marg
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Wagonmaster
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pear
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Wagonmaster
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