Training rewards (treats)

JasonW77 · Post by **JasonW77** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:46 pm

I was wondering what are the most common treats or rewards that trainers use when training? I have heard of people using dog treats, hot dogs, and the oddest one to me was cheese. What did you all use when you train your dog and was there any benefits to using that type? I have been rewarding mine with treats and are afraid that even though I break them into small chunks that its really not healthy all the time. But I also could be wrong.

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:22 am

If you train before you feed, you can just use kibble as a training reward. Instead of the dog getting fed all at once, he gets fed "as he earns it." I'm doing that with the morning meal of a rescue mutt we have right now.

That's a fine-looking Britt you've got there!

(Oh, and put your helmet on and get ready for the comments. A few on this board believe training a bird dog with food rewards is akin to witchcraft.)

Here's an article on the topic: http://leerburg.com/usingtreats.htm There are some good, but pricey DVD's on the topic on the Leerburg site also.

SubMariner · Post by **SubMariner** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:00 pm

JasonW77 wrote:I was wondering what are the most common treats or rewards that trainers use when training? I have heard of people using dog treats, hot dogs, and the oddest one to me was cheese. What did you all use when you train your dog and was there any benefits to using that type? I have been rewarding mine with treats and are afraid that even though I break them into small chunks that its really not healthy all the time. But I also could be wrong.

We use a couple of things:
- low sodium turkey hotdogs (usually Jennie-o)
- Mother Hubbard (small) doggie biscuits - assorted flavours

The turkey dogs are only used for true training; he doesn't get them any other time so they are "very special". I nuke 3 for a training session & cut each one into very small bits so he's really only getting "a taste" as a reward. Often there is about 1/2 a hotdog's worth of leftovers after an hour training session.

The doggie biscuits are small but firm enough to break up fairly cleanly into at least two chunks. We tend to use them outside the the "very special" training sessions, like when we do some training in the house or yard.

Do your homework on the treats. Unfortunately, a fair number of them in the pet food stores are garbage. Don't fall for the cute little shapes like sausages or port chops, because they are usually the worst ones.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:38 pm

Buy the cheapest hot dogs you can get. Cut them in slices 1/8" thick. Cut each slice in quarters. Dogs love them and it is tough to overfeed on them at that size.

JasonW77 · Post by **JasonW77** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:38 pm

Thanks for info. I have been working hard with my britt since she doesn't seem to want obey my commands unless she has her training collar on. Funny thing is I only need to use the tone button to get her to obey. So we kind of took a step back to the basics again

Stilly Bay · Post by **Stilly Bay** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:06 pm

I have always preferred smaller tidbits to larger chunks. that way the pup can snarf it down quick and doesn't waste time chewing and then looking for crumbles on the ground.

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:35 am

Yes, back to the basics. Teach the dog instead of nagging it with the collar. Leave the collar on the dog but teach the dog in close proximity.

Tall Boy · Post by **Tall Boy** » Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:35 pm

It's better to figure out what's causing the problem, rather than bypassing it. Treats can get results yes, but they're artificial and lead to an untrained dog. Look back and try to figure out why she only listens with the collar on. Work her w/o the ecollar, or quit letting her get away with little stuff. No matter when or where if you say "here" she MUST end up where you originated the command, even if you have to go get her. Now with that being said, there are times to give a command and times not to give a command...it's up to you to learn when that is.

The only reward I use regularly is the knowledge that they have pleased me, and freedom. It is unacceptable for her to disobey, even if you have to keep her on a c.c. at all times you must not let her get away with anything. A few weeks/months of increased pressure will lead to a life time of a proper alpha-beta relationship, and a better life for the both of you.

IMO, treats are for puppies, and trainers who don't know what they're doing. I give my dogs a lot of biscuits but I don't use treats as the reason for them to do something.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Let's fix that for you.

Tall Boy wrote:...Treats are for puppies, and trainers who don't know what they're doing.

Treats are for puppies as dispensed by trainers who well know what they're doing. I can have a 10-week-old puppy heeling, sitting, and returning to my right or left side with a dab of burger on the end of my finger. The pups are who don't know what they're doing, but the trainer does: They're getting trained. And what a head start they're getting with treats, all because puppies, like armies, travel on their stomachs - and follow their noses.

MG

SHORTFAT · Post by **SHORTFAT** » Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:54 pm

Well maybe someone can figgure this one out... I was using hotdogs cut thin with my 9 month old pointer and everything was going great. My old lab remembered things we hadn't done in years. My lab died and now the pup won't touch the hot dogs! I've switched to dog treats and it's going ok... but not like before.

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:25 pm

So you were training the pointer with the lab present at all times?

SHORTFAT · Post by **SHORTFAT** » Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:14 pm

yes mostly anyway. we only had the pointer for a few weeks tho when the lab's stomach twisted and he had to be put down. training times were short but progress was good and both dogs really loved it. we're still making progress... but some days she is a complete brick. :roll:

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:02 pm

crackerd wrote: Treats are for puppies as dispensed by trainers who well know what they're doing. I can have a 10-week-old puppy heeling, sitting, and returning to my right or left side with a dab of burger on the end of my finger. The pups are who don't know what they're doing, but the trainer does: They're getting trained. And what a head start they're getting with treats, all because puppies, like armies, travel on their stomachs - and follow their noses.

You bet. And why not take advantage of early, zero pressure conditioning. Later you phase to praise or whatever. The working dog folks (e.g., police dogs) transition from food rewards to tug rewards for the remainder of the dogs life. Keeps the dog at a high level of motivation to do an important job. With bird dogs, the birds themselves and contact with birds ends up being reinforcing - we just try to set up the conditions under which they can be earned.

Post by **slistoe** » Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:48 am

SHORTFAT wrote:yes mostly anyway. we only had the pointer for a few weeks tho when the lab's stomach twisted and he had to be put down. training times were short but progress was good and both dogs really loved it. we're still making progress... but some days she is a complete brick. :roll:

So it is quite possible that the pointer was taking the treat not as a reward for a job done but as a competition to prevent the other dog from getting it. Now that the other dog is gone so is the incentive to take possession of the food.

SHORTFAT · Post by **SHORTFAT** » Sat Jul 24, 2010 10:00 am

That's possible... but who ever heard of a dog that didn't like hot dogs??? She's not even crazy about the treats. I suppose it's a good thing if it means that I can't use the food reward as a crutch, because now if she does do what I want, it's because she WANTS to do what I want... it just means I have to be more patient... moments of brightness interlaced with shear bullheadedness?!!

i dunno... I haven't even thought about putting an e-collar on her yet. from what I've been told and read we have MUCH more work to do with the check cord.

Tall Boy · Post by **Tall Boy** » Sat Jul 24, 2010 10:15 am

crackerd wrote:Let's fix that for you.

Tall Boy wrote:...Treats are for puppies, and trainers who don't know what they're doing.
Treats are for puppies .... The pups are who don't know what they're doing, but the trainer does: They're getting trained. And what a head start they're getting with treats, all because puppies, like armies, travel on their stomachs - and follow their noses.

MG

Im refering more to the non-working side of dog training, we always have several "treat" trainers pop up every couple of years, and no they do not know what they're doing, usually don't last very long, and screw up dogs that we end up having to solve. Don't get me wrong, treats have their place; every dog is different and requires different attentions. But I'm against trainers who start with threats, teach with treats, and reinfroce with treats, are against the ecollar, and think dogs should never be off a lead...yada yada yada. I just feel like treats are a crutch to hold a dog's attention and falsley present a working relationship. When your dog is running towards a road after a cat, what's more important to a dog at that time your hot dog or the prey he's lit out after? If a proper working relationship is established there's nothing more important than the booming voice of the alpha male, now you might have a chance at stopping your dog!

Like I said treats are for puppies, certain other special needs....and trainers who don't know what they're doing, and want to look like they're making progress with a dog.

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:38 pm

Tall Boy wrote: we always have several "treat" trainers pop up every couple of years, and no they do not know what they're doing, usually don't last very long, and screw up dogs that we end up having to solve.

Yup - so the bad ones come to you to get fixed, and you see the effects of poor training. The well-trained dogs, however, are out there hunting and having the times of their lives, and you don't get to see them. You've made a sweeping generalization about a training method based on the selected sample you've had experience with.

Now - don't get me wrong - I don't see how any bird dog could ever be trained completely with food rewards and zero corrections or compulsions. I will disagree with the generalization you've made, though, about "treat" training. "Marker-based" training is producing unbelievable results with all sorts of critters with all sorts of complex behaviors. It produces animals that "think" and that's not a bad trait in a bird dog, either.

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Sat Jul 24, 2010 8:11 pm

JasonW77 wrote:Thanks for info. I have been working hard with my britt since she doesn't seem to want obey my commands unless she has her training collar on. Funny thing is I only need to use the tone button to get her to obey. So we kind of took a step back to the basics again

Im not trying to be that guy but I read this and it made me cringe a little bit, and im sure there are people who know better than me. But IMO if you intend to use a beeper collar to keep track of your dog then you may not want to use the tone on your collar as a negative response to your dogs behavior...... this is assuming that you will use a beeper collar.......
JIm

Tall Boy · Post by **Tall Boy** » Sat Jul 24, 2010 10:04 pm

AzHusker wrote:
Tall Boy wrote: we always have several "treat" trainers pop up every couple of years, and no they do not know what they're doing, usually don't last very long, and screw up dogs that we end up having to solve.
Yup - so the bad ones come to you to get fixed, and you see the effects of poor training. The well-trained dogs, however, are out there hunting and having the times of their lives, and you don't get to see them. You've made a sweeping generalization about a training method based on the selected sample you've had experience with.

Now - don't get me wrong - I don't see how any bird dog could ever be trained completely with food rewards and zero corrections or compulsions. I will disagree with the generalization you've made, though, about "treat" training. "Marker-based" training is producing unbelievable results with all sorts of critters with all sorts of complex behaviors. It produces animals that "think" and that's not a bad trait in a bird dog, either.

I train bird dogs privatley on a plantation, but publicly train pets with my dad's business. I'm not talking about treats related to bird dogs, simply basic general obedience training. The problem I have is with the new waves of trainers with "certificates" that have graduated from dog training school that just don't know what they're doing. The original poster's question was geared towards basic treat training, and I believe it would of lead him to problems down the road.

jlp8cornell · Post by **jlp8cornell** » Sun Jul 25, 2010 7:15 pm

Now - don't get me wrong - I don't see how any bird dog could ever be trained completely with food rewards and zero corrections or compulsions. I will disagree with the generalization you've made, though, about "treat" training. "Marker-based" training is producing unbelievable results with all sorts of critters with all sorts of complex behaviors. It produces animals that "think" and that's not a bad trait in a bird dog, either.

I do competitive obedience and use treats A LOT. With bird training/water work, the bird or fetch is the reward. But...there is nothing wrong with using treats, as long as the dog knows he/she has to do the job with or without treats.

I use an e collar. I use treats. There is a place for both.

PS- Use turkey hot dogs (I microwave to take out moisture and make easier t handle. I also use low fat mozz cheese sticks cut up)

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Jul 26, 2010 5:56 pm

I do competitive obedience and use treats A LOT. With bird training/water work, the bird or fetch is the reward. But...there is nothing wrong with using treats, as long as the dog knows he/she has to do the job with or without treats.

I use an e collar. I use treats. There is a place for both.

Right on! I will use treats with a puppy, just to get him/her started in the right direction. I don't use treats as a reward once a dog gets a little older and knows what the command means. After that I will use treats randomly from time to time, not as a reward, but just because they enjoy them.

Charlie

jlp8cornell · Post by **jlp8cornell** » Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:43 pm

Yes Charlie. I agree. they need to learn to work with or without them. In trials I cannot have them any where near the ring so......

Still no harm in using them as a reward.

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:06 pm

I could put a roast of beef in the field and my 2 wouldn't be interested at all when there are birds to be found. Now the Jack Russell would certainly finish it off.

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:25 pm

jlp8cornell wrote:Still no harm in using them as a reward.

Yep. Training with food rewards does not replace other training, it prefaces and supplements it.

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:51 pm

Sharon wrote:I could put a roast of beef in the field and my 2 wouldn't be interested at all when there are birds to be found. Now the Jack Russell would certainly finish it off.

There was some debate years ago about the allowing of bitches in season to run in a trial. One fellow who had the top winning GSP at the time said "Let them run anytime. Brace them with OG and he will still hunt."

Qwernt · Post by **Qwernt** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:50 pm

After talking with the breeder, I recently quit training my 4 month old pup with treats. The problem is, she has never really enjoyed people petting her (used to bite at people who touched her), so I am having trouble coming up with "reward" beyond "not in trouble". I am not sure avoid upsetting master is a good approach for training. I don't have a dominance issue with her (any more) however she only comes when I pull on the lead. If she is not on the lead, she will not come unless she thinks I have food...
Am I expecting too much? When I was using treats (not reward with treat all the time, just often enough) she came every time I called; now as I said, unless i reel her in, she won't come.

Ideas?

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:37 am

Quernt:

Just keep working on your bond with this dog.
Ideally they do as asked because they want to please you.

A touch on the head or back is all my dogs need to feel "treated" and know I'm pleased with them.

It's great when you have a dog who occasionally looks back at you to say, " Everything o-kay? Everyone happy? "

PS - just my opinion - if dog is only complying when you have food , then you have a dominance issue still. Time to transition from the cc to the e-collar, or being as the dog is only 4 months, keep the dog on the CC, unable to disobey until you feel ready to transition to the e-collar. Don't set up opportunities ( off leash) for the dog to disobey/win.

Qwernt · Post by **Qwernt** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:48 am

Thanks Sharon.

Yeah, I get disobey == win. I don't even give commands anymore unless she is on the leash/in control. She recently had an ear infection and treating it has changed the relationship. She now knows I am in charge, but I don't think she is too happy with that fact still. Obviously still need to work the bond.

Ryman Gun Dog · Post by **Ryman Gun Dog** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:22 pm

Jason W77,
Never use them, never will.
RGD/Dave

scott townsend · Post by **scott townsend** » Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:57 am

How many of the pro's out there do you suppose are training with treats????? I am not talking about pro's that are teaching show ring stuff or obedience. I mean pro's that are training or handling bird dogs for/on a trial circuit or a competetive format of some sort.
Ask those people if they train with treats, you will get a funny look and then they will probably laugh at you.
If you are training with treats, you may think you are getting through to your dog but what you are really doing is pacifying your dog.
When your dog is charging in on a bird, yell whoa and throw him a hotdog, see how far that will get you. Cookie training will not get you very far when it come to bird dogs.Likewise cookie trainers never make it far in the bird dog training as well.There are lots of better methods for breaking dogs out there then treats. FWIW

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:05 am

scott townsend wrote:How many of the pro's out there do you suppose are training with treats????? I am not talking about pro's that are teaching show ring stuff or obedience. I mean pro's that are training or handling bird dogs for/on a trial circuit or a competetive format of some sort.
Ask those people if they train with treats, you will get a funny look and then they will probably laugh at you.
If you are training with treats, you may think you are getting through to your dog but what you are really doing is pacifying your dog.
When your dog is charging in on a bird, yell whoa and throw him a hotdog, see how far that will get you. Cookie training will not get you very far when it come to bird dogs.Likewise cookie trainers never make it far in the bird dog training as well.There are lots of better methods for breaking dogs out there then treats. FWIW

Chad Hines, Willow Creek Kennels. Use your google-foo.

Caveat, Chad uses a variety of things, clicker, collar, treats. But one thing is sure, the dogs are trained.

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:42 am

scott townsend wrote:When your dog is charging in on a bird, yell whoa and throw him a hotdog, see how far that will get you. Cookie training will not get you very far when it come to bird dogs.Likewise cookie trainers never make it far in the bird dog training as well.There are lots of better methods for breaking dogs out there then treats. FWIW

Oh come on. You've never seen a pro train with "der veiner schlinger?" Sure, they use them in baseball games, too, but those things were invented by bird dog trainers. How else could you get the hotdog out there? :roll:

The original poster simply asked what types of food folks used when they used food rewards. If you read the question, he didn't ask about "breaking dogs," so I'll take your post FWIW. Not too much in regard to the original question.

I'm always amazed by the need some folks have to trash training methods about which they obviously know so little. In reality, some of the best-trained dogs ON THE PLANET were trained using the principles of operant conditioning almost exclusively.

The fact that you've never seen a well-trained dog trained by a so-called "cookie trainer" just means your sample of observations is limited.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:44 am

scott townsend wrote:How many of the pro's out there do you suppose are training with treats????? I am not talking about pro's that are teaching show ring stuff or obedience. I mean pro's that are training or handling bird dogs for/on a trial circuit or a competetive format of some sort.
Ask those people if they train with treats, you will get a funny look and then they will probably laugh at you.
If you are training with treats, you may think you are getting through to your dog but what you are really doing is pacifying your dog.
When your dog is charging in on a bird, yell whoa and throw him a hotdog, see how far that will get you. Cookie training will not get you very far when it come to bird dogs.Likewise cookie trainers never make it far in the bird dog training as well.There are lots of better methods for breaking dogs out there then treats. FWIW

You need a little more insight. Of course pros don't use treats, or perhaps a few do at best. Why would they? Pros get dogs at six months of age or older, by which time treats have long been phased out if you know how to train with them and what you're training with them. And what do you train with them? Obedience. That's it.

Retriever training for field trials is as complex and complicated (not to mention intense and lifelong) as any dog training out there. It all springs from obedience. And if you can get a head start with treats on putting that obedience into a puppy, you seize it.

Or do you think this 9 week-old needed to have a treat traded to her for making a retrieve

or that she wouldn't give up the retrieve for a treat when it's a supersized treat to begin with?

or that a couple years later she was leaping over the lake because there was a treat waiting on the far side?

(There was, the biggest treat of all, for a retriever: the retrieve.)

MG

scott townsend · Post by **scott townsend** » Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:13 am

Crackered, so whats your point. Are you trying to convince me that your dog is retrieving and jumping into the water because of a treat?????
If you read my post I think I made it pretty clear as to bird dogs and trainers that are training and running on the circuit. Basically field trialing.

"How many of the pro's out there do you suppose are training with treats????? I am not talking about pro's that are teaching show ring stuff or obedience. I mean pro's that are training or handling bird dogs for/on a trial circuit or a competetive format of some sort."

I did not think for a minute that I would convince any of the cookie trainers to change there methods. Pretty much the only reason I even posted was attempt to inject some reality to the new /inexperienced trainer or dog owner they may happen to read this thread.
As I mentioned earlier the next time fido or fifi is chasing the neighbors duck,headed for that busy road throw your treat at him and see if they stop. :roll: :roll:

scott townsend · Post by **scott townsend** » Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:29 am

Wyndancer wrote:
scott townsend wrote:How many of the pro's out there do you suppose are training with treats????? I am not talking about pro's that are teaching show ring stuff or obedience. I mean pro's that are training or handling bird dogs for/on a trial circuit or a competetive format of some sort.
Ask those people if they train with treats, you will get a funny look and then they will probably laugh at you.
If you are training with treats, you may think you are getting through to your dog but what you are really doing is pacifying your dog.
When your dog is charging in on a bird, yell whoa and throw him a hotdog, see how far that will get you. Cookie training will not get you very far when it come to bird dogs.Likewise cookie trainers never make it far in the bird dog training as well.There are lots of better methods for breaking dogs out there then treats. FWIW
Chad Hines, Willow Creek Kennels. Use your google-foo.

Caveat, Chad uses a variety of things, clicker, collar, treats. But one thing is sure, the dogs are trained.

Sorry, didn't see much in the way of cookie training going on there. Nor was he competing dogs on the circuit. Next.

nitrex · Post by **nitrex** » Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:49 pm

scott townsend wrote:How many of the pro's out there do you suppose are training with treats????? I am not talking about pro's that are teaching show ring stuff or obedience. I mean pro's that are training or handling bird dogs for/on a trial circuit or a competetive format of some sort.
Ask those people if they train with treats, you will get a funny look and then they will probably laugh at you.
If you are training with treats, you may think you are getting through to your dog but what you are really doing is pacifying your dog.
When your dog is charging in on a bird, yell whoa and throw him a hotdog, see how far that will get you. Cookie training will not get you very far when it come to bird dogs.Likewise cookie trainers never make it far in the bird dog training as well.There are lots of better methods for breaking dogs out there then treats. FWIW

George Hickox is using treats...his dogs love hot dogs and clickers!!! I'd say he has had some success!!

Nitrex

scott townsend · Post by **scott townsend** » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:13 pm

nitrex wrote:
scott townsend wrote:How many of the pro's out there do you suppose are training with treats????? I am not talking about pro's that are teaching show ring stuff or obedience. I mean pro's that are training or handling bird dogs for/on a trial circuit or a competitive format of some sort.
Ask those people if they train with treats, you will get a funny look and then they will probably laugh at you.
If you are training with treats, you may think you are getting through to your dog but what you are really doing is pacifying your dog.
When your dog is charging in on a bird, yell whoa and throw him a hotdog, see how far that will get you. Cookie training will not get you very far when it come to bird dogs.Likewise cookie trainers never make it far in the bird dog training as well.There are lots of better methods for breaking dogs out there then treats. FWIW

George Hickox is using treats...his dogs love hot dogs and clickers!!! I'd say he has had some success!!

Nitrex

Once more and then i give up.I said pro's that are training or handling bird dogs for/on a trial circuit or a competitive format of some sort. Hickox does not.

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:16 pm

So Jason77,

It's been a week... Did you get your answer?

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:12 am

Scott,

you are certainly technically right...however, he did in fact train and handle two or more high point AF pointers in a successful field trial career. His knowledge of the sport, the dogs and what it takes to win is impeccable. Make no mistake his use of the clicker has not replaced his traditional training it enhances it through an earlier start on behaviors with puppies.

scott townsend · Post by **scott townsend** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:28 am

Chukar12 wrote:Scott,

you are certainly technically right...however, he did in fact train and handle two or more high point AF pointers in a successful field trial career. His knowledge of the sport, the dogs and what it takes to win is impeccable. Make no mistake his use of the clicker has not replaced his traditional training it enhances it through an earlier start on behaviors with puppies.

I am aware of Mr Hickox training methods and his history. I can assure you those pointers were not trained with hot dogs and a clicker.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:48 am

that is certainly true, neither are the dogs at the "broke" stage today

scott townsend · Post by **scott townsend** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:17 pm

Chucker12
What really does surprise me are the amount of bird dog owners that are out there that honestly believe they can break a bird dog with the cookie training method.
This thread is a perfect example of it. Three pages of posts and from what I count, 4 people admit that it is not the way to go and the rest support it.(Cookie training) I am amazed. After years of training and breaking hundreds of dogs maybe I will go get me a package of hotdogs.LOL. Oh and a clicker.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:57 pm

Scott,

If I haven't misread things you make your living training bird dogs, so I certainly lack your level of experience. I do happen to be a student of clicker training and I personally believe in it and have had success at the puppy level getting behaviors that became inprinted and made breaking need less force. However, the danger of it is exactly as you and other pros are pointing out. You cannot make a bird dog with clicker training and if you are of the ilk that drinks that kool-aid, getting a truly broke dog with style and intensity probably isn't in the cards for you. Even some "guru's" of clicker training such as Gary Wilkes acknowledge that it loses its effectiveness in a dog you are working in the field and bird stages. Heck, they even wean the marker (clicker) off of the trick and agility dogs in the finished stages. Now this is my own conjecture but I believe it will become distracting in bird work for sure and the thought of that makes me worry about a dog's intensity and focus.

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:30 pm

scott townsend wrote:Chucker12
What really does surprise me are the amount of bird dog owners that are out there that honestly believe they can break a bird dog with the cookie training method.
This thread is a perfect example of it. Three pages of posts and from what I count, 4 people admit that it is not the way to go and the rest support it.(Cookie training) I am amazed. After years of training and breaking hundreds of dogs maybe I will go get me a package of hotdogs.LOL. Oh and a clicker.

Scott, you have created a straw man argument, and you've ripped it to shreds. Congratulations.

Not one person on this thread said you could or should "break" a gun dog using clicker training. The proponents all maintain that it is a good tool to use to bring along and introduce obedience to a young dog, and all the original poster wanted was to know what kinds of treats folks use.

I can see your intent is to insult those who believe in it - you repeatedly and derisively call them "cookie trainers" and made sure we all know that the field trial pros don't use it. OK. Anyone who believes in operant conditioning with bird dogs is a moron, and you have the answers. Got it.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:23 pm

Not one person on this thread said you could or should "break" a gun dog using clicker training. The proponents all maintain that it is a good tool to use to bring along and introduce obedience to a young dog, and all the original poster wanted was to know what kinds of treats folks use.

Correct!! I for one said that I will use treats to get a puppy started in the right direction. I also said that I will give a treat from time to time to mature dogs, not as a reward or training technique, but just as a treat. Without going back and reading all the posts, I don't remember reading any post that promoted training or breaking a dog with treats, at least that is the way I was reading this thread.

Charlie

scott townsend · Post by **scott townsend** » Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:21 am

birddogger wrote:
Not one person on this thread said you could or should "break" a gun dog using clicker training. The proponents all maintain that it is a good tool to use to bring along and introduce obedience to a young dog, and all the original poster wanted was to know what kinds of treats folks use.
Correct!! I for one said that I will use treats to get a puppy started in the right direction. I also said that I will give a treat from time to time to mature dogs, not as a reward or training technique, but just as a treat. Without going back and reading all the posts, I don't remember reading any post that promoted training or breaking a dog with treats, at least that is the way I was reading this thread.

Charlie

Then you need to go back and reread all the posts. Several of them speak of training with treats. Also this is the training forum. If it was not a training question why would it have been posted here ?????

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:36 am

scott townsend wrote:
Wyndancer wrote:
scott townsend wrote:How many of the pro's out there do you suppose are training with treats????? I am not talking about pro's that are teaching show ring stuff or obedience. I mean pro's that are training or handling bird dogs for/on a trial circuit or a competetive format of some sort.
Ask those people if they train with treats, you will get a funny look and then they will probably laugh at you.
If you are training with treats, you may think you are getting through to your dog but what you are really doing is pacifying your dog.
When your dog is charging in on a bird, yell whoa and throw him a hotdog, see how far that will get you. Cookie training will not get you very far when it come to bird dogs.Likewise cookie trainers never make it far in the bird dog training as well.There are lots of better methods for breaking dogs out there then treats. FWIW
Chad Hines, Willow Creek Kennels. Use your google-foo.

Caveat, Chad uses a variety of things, clicker, collar, treats. But one thing is sure, the dogs are trained.

Sorry, didn't see much in the way of cookie training going on there. Nor was he competing dogs on the circuit. Next.

So the 45 MH dogs are an accident?

The fact is, even if Chad doesn't show it on his website, he does treat dogs. Fact. To what level I have no idea, but in the conversations I've had with him, he uses a treat. Whether it be a bit of hot dog, "cookie", or a bird head.

scott townsend · Post by **scott townsend** » Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:20 am

quote="Wyndancer"]

scott townsend wrote:How many of the pro's out there do you suppose are training with treats????? I am not talking about pro's that are teaching show ring stuff or obedience. I mean pro's that are training or handling bird dogs for/on a trial circuit or a competetive format of some sort.
Ask those people if they train with treats, you will get a funny look and then they will probably laugh at you.
If you are training with treats, you may think you are getting through to your dog but what you are really doing is pacifying your dog.
When your dog is charging in on a bird, yell whoa and throw him a hotdog, see how far that will get you. Cookie training will not get you very far when it come to bird dogs.Likewise cookie trainers never make it far in the bird dog training as well.There are lots of better methods for breaking dogs out there then treats. FWIW

Chad Hines, Willow Creek Kennels. Use your google-foo.

Caveat, Chad uses a variety of things, clicker, collar, treats. But one thing is sure, the dogs are trained.[/quote]

Sorry, didn't see much in the way of cookie training going on there. Nor was he competing dogs on the circuit. Next.[/quote]

So the 45 MH dogs are an accident?

The fact is, even if Chad doesn't show it on his website, he does treat dogs. Fact. To what level I have no idea, but in the conversations I've had with him, he uses a treat. Whether it be a bit of hot dog, "cookie", or a bird head.[/quote]

You posted the web site as a reference . I read it . It says nothing about training with treats. So what is your point?
I also said competitive formats referring to trialing, not hunt tests.
I am simple pointing out that the folks that are breaking gundogs for the competetive formats are not training with treats.If you have facts of some that do I am ready to listen.
Maybe I should have used a disclaimer in my wording, but in the 20 years of my breaking dogs I have yet to see the method applied by the pro's. I would think that ( and the purpose of my orginal post) a person would ask themselves why don't they use treats????????
Then draw the conclusion themselves.. because they DO NOT work. It is not rocket science.
I think that to many make the assumption that a high strung bird dog can be trained with out ever having to make any kind of a physical correction with the dog. Only in a perfect world.Like it or not, the reality is there are times that you have to put some pressure on your friend/dog to get your point across if you can't do this, you will probably never reach much of a level of training.
You can't put fido on time out, to teach him a lesson no more then you can give him a treat to coerce him into any reasonable level of training .

snips · Post by **snips** » Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:21 am

I agree with Scott here...I used treats for competitive obedience training, but I think they have in recent years even dropped much of it there...as dogs got smart enough to know when it was there or not

I keep treats in the kennel for when dogs get off FF table or just for happy times....But, not for any serious teaching times......I think it is being used as a gimmick more than anything....

cast_and_blast · Post by **cast_and_blast** » Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:32 am

scott townsend wrote:

You posted the web site as a reference . I read it . It says nothing about training with treats. So what is your point?
I also said competitive formats referring to trialing, not hunt tests.
I am simple pointing out that the folks that are breaking gundogs for the competetive formats are not training with treats.If you have facts of some that do I am ready to listen.
Maybe I should have used a disclaimer in my wording, but in the 20 years of my breaking dogs I have yet to see the method applied by the pro's. I would think that ( and the purpose of my orginal post) a person would ask themselves why don't they use treats????????
Then draw the conclusion themselves.. because they DO NOT work. It is not rocket science.
I think that to many make the assumption that a high strung bird dog can be trained with out ever having to make any kind of a physical correction with the dog. Only in a perfect world.Like it or not, the reality is there are times that you have to put some pressure on your friend/dog to get your point across if you can't do this, you will probably never reach much of a level of training.
You can't put fido on time out, to teach him a lesson no more then you can give him a treat to coerce him into any reasonable level of training .

The website has viedos (also avilable on youtube) that clearly show them using the clicker and treats FOR PUPPIES. There are videos snippets for teaching "come" and "heel" using the clicker. Whether Chad trials dogs or not I have no idea but he is a pro trainer. I don't believe anyone ever wrote or intimated that he used the clicker and/or treats to break a dog.

Scott T - it just seems like you're ripping folks apart for using a particular method that you don't believe in. There is more than one way to train a dog, seems there are nearly countless books on the topic and each one is a little bit different. Plus, for many here, we're not training trial dogs - we're training our family pets for hunt tests and general hunting companions. I'm guessing that the methods will probably differ.

Just my $.02 as an observer and novice trainer. Good luck -

Scott